2nd Article Of Faith

[Guest MrsS]

<div align="center"> THE ARTICLES OF FAITH

OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

I take comfort in knowing that I will not be punished for the transgressions of my ancestors. This tells me clearly that I am the only one who is responsible for the transgressions and sins I have committed.

[Dr T]

Do you believe that ALL are sinners?

[Maureen]

Do you believe that we inherit our sinful nature or that we acquire our sinful nature by learning/example?

M.

[prisonchaplain]

I'll throw in where I believe this string will end up: What does it mean to be saved? A typical gap of terminology creates incredible dissension between lds and non-lds on this. Here's what I've come to understand:

When non-LDS Christians--especially evangelicals--speak of salvation, we're really talking about initial conversion. Most of us experienced "a moment of decision." We turned our lives over to God, repented of our sins, and received the mercy and grace of God. It was not by works of righteousness that we were saved, but according to his mercy (rough reworking of Ephesians 2:8-9).

After salvation, there is sanctification. My particular church believes in "progressive sanctification." We grow in Christian maturity, becoming more and more like our Savior. Ultimately, we die and receive our reward: Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into my kingdom.

Now, when LDS speak of salvation, they really are conflating conversion and sanctification. The argument being, if a convert does not endure, they'll not ultimately be saved.

To restate, in simpler terms: non-LDS focus on having been saved, whereas LDS focus on guarding their salvation.

Perhaps Calvinist Christians have more disagreement here. My own tradition is Arminian, so I see the gap on this particular teaching as far less than either side often realizes.

[Traveler]

This implies (and I believe) that G-d did not force anyone to come into a world full of sin but that given the opportunity to understand what was at (eternal) stake and what it is that we need to appreciate salvation; that we choose to become fallen of our own free will. Therefor, the fall of Adam was symbolic of the fall of all mankind that would come and live as mortals on earth. There was no injustice forced by G-d, for we all choose , by our faith in G-d, to be born with physical bodies and live so exposed to sin that there would be no hope of avoiding it - except by the sacrifice of G-d the Son - the mediator for all that have selected to be fallen, with the Father.

The Traveler

[rosie321]

When non-LDS Christians--especially evangelicals--speak of salvation, we're really talking about initial conversion. Most of us experienced "a moment of decision." We turned our lives over to God, repented of our sins, and received the mercy and grace of God. It was not by works of righteousness that we were saved, but according to his mercy (rough reworking of Ephesians 2:8-9).

After salvation, there is sanctification. My particular church believes in "progressive sanctification." We grow in Christian maturity, becoming more and more like our Savior. Ultimately, we die and receive our reward: Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into my kingdom.

Now, when LDS speak of salvation, they really are conflating conversion and sanctification. The argument being, if a convert does not endure, they'll not ultimately be saved.

To restate, in simpler terms: non-LDS focus on having been saved, whereas LDS focus on guarding their salvation.

Perhaps Calvinist Christians have more disagreement here. My own tradition is Arminian, so I see the gap on this particular teaching as far less than either side often realizes.

From all that I've seen and learned through experience in the Christian and LDS world you are pretty much on. The christian world considers salvation at the moment of decision. That nothing will ever shake you from that truth once you have it. The grace of God is the ultimate focus. If you die tonight you understand you are going to heaven.

The LDS world blends that decision with accountability and sanctification. Cleaning out all the junk so to say that will keep you from experiencing the fullness of God. This can be a much scarier world if operating under fear but if you believe that all things are possible and the Lord giveth no commandment save he prepare a way whereby man may accomplish the thing he hath commanded then it is not so scary. You don't have to focus so much on protecting yourself just growing in the grace of God. Just as in the Christian world you should be progressing, cleaning out the junk and maturing in the gospel. If you have sin in you life you are bound. That piece of you is not comfortable and knows it is wrong. That area of sin in your life keeps you from God. No unclean thing can enter his presence. This puts much more accountability on the individual to make sure their speech lines up with their actions. Faith, Repentence, baptism -renewing the covenants, and seeking the constant companion of the Holy Ghost is a continual process. Not a one time thing or when ever I feel like it. If it were so we wouldn't be admonished so much to watch out for one another, to endure, etc.

Eternal Life is this to know God the eternal Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Do you really want to spend eternity with someone you don't know? Many people speak of going to Heaven when they die, seeing God, a great party, or worship fest etc. But how boring would it be if you didn't KNOW Him. You wouldn't want to be there or at least I wouldn't. The decision itself will not make you know Christ. There's a difference between how you would treat an aquaintance and a friend or brother.

Making a decision to follow does not quarantee that you will follow through. God wants obediences. Its like losing weight. It's a noble goal for some. Say I determine I want to lose 20 lbs but if I eat lots of junk and don't exercise what do you think my chances will be? Nothing will change. Faith without works is dead. The LDS believe "It is by grace ye are saved after all that you can do. Say we strive and don't lose weight chances are we built up muscles and are healthier for it.

It just seems if salvation was just making a decison God wouldn't have said that the way was narrow. He also said that not everyone who cried Lord Lord would enter into the kingdom of Heaven. There are many many people who have cried out such as murderers etc. But they never demonstrated change. I'm sure that there were many sincere people who may have prayed but lost it. There is the parable of the seeds in the new testament to illustrate that. Where the seeds were scattered and some were picked off, others died and only a few actually grew. In the BOM theres the vision of the tree of Life. There are so many verses that indicate the whole balance between grace and works. Fear and faith.

What I tell my christian friends when I became LDS is that to me I am just taking things one step further in my walk with Christ. I've made the decision to follow Christ and said the prayer in the Christian faith so I am covered that way since it is believed once you make that decison you are saved. When I joined the LDS church I indicated that now I was just taking some more steps to draw me closer to God and Christ. This is the place where I feel offers the doctrine, structure, or whatever to take me where I should be. If I'm wrong then I'm still saved right? So far, while the Christians I've known have not been to happy with me becoming LDS and strongly expressed it (except this forum where everyone works so hard to be mutual) they can not argue that I am trying to do the right thing and would be ok in the end under their individual belief systems.

[prisonchaplain]

The christian world considers salvation at the moment of decision. That nothing will ever shake you from that truth once you have it. The grace of God is the ultimate focus. If you die tonight you understand you are going to heaven.

Just to clarify--there are two views on "once saved always saved." Those from Reformed or Calvinist traditions believe as you've stated--once you embrace God you are and will forever be "saved." Those from Armenian traditions (i.e. Methodists, and my own Assemblies of God) believe it is possible for the convert to lose salvation. And yet, both schools of thought would agree with your basic understanding--we are confident in our salvation, and we do believe with certainty that should we die tonight, we'll be with the Father.

The LDS world blends that decision with accountability and sanctification. Cleaning out all the junk so to say that will keep you from experiencing the fullness of God. This can be a much scarier world if operating under fear.

The accusation is that you do not have assurance of salvation. To most Christians, yes, that is a scary prospect. Calvinists believe they are eternally secure, and even Armenians mostly believe that "falling from grace," is an intentional and mostly unlikely fate.

but if you believe that all things are possible and the Lord giveth no commandment save he prepare a way whereby man may accomplish the thing he hath commanded then it is not so scary. You don't have to focus so much on protecting yourself just growing in the grace of God.

"Don't focus on the don'ts. Focus on the dos."

Just as in the Christian world you should be progressing, cleaning out the junk and maturing in the gospel. If you have sin in you life you are bound. That piece of you is not comfortable and knows it is wrong. That area of sin in your life keeps you from God. No unclean thing can enter his presence. This puts much more accountability on the individual to make sure their speech lines up with their actions. Faith, Repentence, baptism -renewing the covenants, and seeking the constant companion of the Holy Ghost is a continual process. Not a one time thing or when ever I feel like it. If it were so we wouldn't be admonished so much to watch out for one another, to endure, etc.

You're sounding almost pentecostal here (compliment!).

Eternal Life is this to know God the eternal Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Do you really want to spend eternity with someone you don't know? Many people speak of going to Heaven when they die, seeing God, a great party, or worship fest etc. But how boring would it be if you didn't KNOW Him. You wouldn't want to be there or at least I wouldn't. The decision itself will not make you know Christ. There's a difference between how you would treat an aquaintance and a friend or brother.

It's not a religion, it's a relationship.

Making a decision to follow does not quarantee that you will follow through. God wants obediences. Its like losing weight. It's a noble goal for some. Say I determine I want to lose 20 lbs but if I eat lots of junk and don't exercise what do you think my chances will be? Nothing will change. Faith without works is dead. The LDS believe "It is by grace ye are saved after all that you can do. Say we strive and don't lose weight chances are we built up muscles and are healthier for it.

So, the key difference is that we--even we Armenians--believe that a fall from grace would be an intentional, repetitious rejection of the Holy Spirit's wooing--one that would only be accomplished despite many vigorous interventions by God. In other words--the fall can happen, but it's not likely, and not easy. So, we confidently proclaim, "I'm saved and heaven-bound!" It's not spiritual arrogance in our own efforts, but confidence in Father's protection.

It just seems if salvation was just making a decison God wouldn't have said that the way was narrow.

I would suggest that the way is narrow because it's only one way--Jesus. Yet, narrow as it is, should the whole world turn, all 6 billion plus would fit.

He also said that not everyone who cried Lord Lord would enter into the kingdom of Heaven. There are many many people who have cried out such as murderers etc. But they never demonstrated change.

Calvinists would argue that they were pretenders who were never saved. Armenians would argue that some might be phonies, others those that fell. My own guess here--those that fail, do so because they do not wish to endure hardship, not because they don't perform well enough.

I'm sure that there were many sincere people who may have prayed but lost it. There is the parable of the seeds in the new testament to illustrate that. Where the seeds were scattered and some were picked off, others died and only a few actually grew. In the BOM theres the vision of the tree of Life. There are so many verses that indicate the whole balance between grace and works. Fear and faith.

Calvinists do argue that good works are evidence of salvation--not prerequisites. I tend to agree. Further, many who "say the sinners' prayer" or go through the motions of conversion, are not truly converted. Billy Graham has estimated that perhaps 10% of those who "go forward" at his crusades, follow through by joining a church or in some way getting connected with the Christian faith community.

What I tell my christian friends when I became LDS is that to me I am just taking things one step further in my walk with Christ. I've made the decision to follow Christ and said the prayer in the Christian faith so I am covered that way since it is believed once you make that decison you are saved.

FYI: I believe Barna reports that 34% of Mormons claim all the experiences that evangelicals use to define being "born again."

When I joined the LDS church I indicated that now I was just taking some more steps to draw me closer to God and Christ. This is the place where I feel offers the doctrine, structure, or whatever to take me where I should be. If I'm wrong then I'm still saved right?

Without a long discussion, it is fair to say that the doctrines of the COJCLDS differ on most core teachings, when compared with 'traditional' Christian churches. So, the open question is: How different can our beliefs be, and we claim to share 'like precious faith?'

By way of disclosure, I leave this as an open question. Some LDS beliefs are not so different as other Christians have assumed. But, some are. Is God okay with that? How wrong can we be and still be pleasing in His sight? Again, open questions for me. Perhaps it's part of why I continue to dialogue.

So far, while the Christians I've known have not been to happy with me becoming LDS and strongly expressed it (except this forum where everyone works so hard to be mutual) they can not argue that I am trying to do the right thing and would be ok in the end under their individual belief systems.

Well, if we were close friends, then, of course, I'd feel more confident of your spiritual health if you were in the Assemblies of God. And, I'm sure you'd be overjoyed if your Christian friends decided to visit the meeting house--to investigate. On the other hand, if your Christian friends continue to be your Christian friends, then kudos to you and your mature friends!

[Guest MrsS]

Do you believe that we inherit our sinful nature or that we acquire our sinful nature by learning/example?

M.

Personally I believe that we acquire our sinful nature by what ever means. I have known people who were Satan personified, yet their parents were sweet, wonderful, righteous people, and visa versa. Sweet, righteous children and evil parents.

[Traveler]

It's not a religion, it's a relationship.

I would change something here and say - it is not a religion or just a relationship. It is a covenant, a covenant that the scriptures often compare to the marriage covenant. BTW the word "religion" does not appear anywhere in scripture.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Hey Traveler,

BTW the word "religion" does not appear anywhere in scripture.

Neither are theogony, "Celestial Kingdom," "Eternal Progression," and "Gnolom" (to name a few). Why do you bring that up Traveler?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Traveler]

Hey Traveler,

BTW the word "religion" does not appear anywhere in scripture.

Neither are theogony, "Celestial Kingdom," "Eternal Progression," and "Gnolom" (to name a few). Why do you bring that up Traveler?

Thanks,

Dr. T

Often it seem that in modern thought that we are categorized by religion. In Scripture the term used is "way" or "path". This would indicate that we are not just trying to find the correct organization or group but instead we should be looking and thinking about the journey.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

In Scripture the term used is "way" or "path". This would indicate that we are not just trying to find the correct organization or group but instead we should be looking and thinking about the journey.

Good point! :)

[rosie321]

Question if we are punished for our own sin and not for Adams transgression then why do

Men still work by the sweat of their brow?

Women still have difficult labor and men ruling over them?

.......................................................................................................................................................

Some off the wall thoughts

Or are we punished for Eve's transgression rather than Adams.?

Have we just been weighting ourselves down needlessly for centuries and millenia?

Are middle age mommas boys or welfare abusers actually overcoming the curse or living to their full potential?

Women ARE starting to kick back and take over...

Lets not forget the cocktail of drugs available for childbirth if you have the right doctor.. even then no way around pain either then or the next century after.

[Dr T]

Interesting thought Rosie321.

Dr. T

[Traveler]

Question if we are punished for our own sin and not for Adams transgression then why do

Men still work by the sweat of their brow?

Women still have difficult labor and men ruling over them?

.......................................................................................................................................................

Some off the wall thoughts

Or are we punished for Eve's transgression rather than Adams.?

Have we just been weighting ourselves down needlessly for centuries and millenia?

Are middle age mommas boys or welfare abusers actually overcoming the curse or living to their full potential?

Women ARE starting to kick back and take over...

Lets not forget the cocktail of drugs available for childbirth if you have the right doctor.. even then no way around pain either then or the next century after.

This assumes that all these things are a punishment. In Genesis 3:17 it says ...cursed is the ground for thy sake:

Note that the thought "for thy sake" is imbedded. This would imply that G-d understood something that we may be missing in this thread. That is that all these troubles and problems that we complain of - just may be more of a blessing than a curse. Therefore those that follow G-d's council and live by the sweat of their face to eat all the days of their lives will be better off for it. Perhaps this life is an opportunity for something that was not available prior. Maybe rather than complain how hard it is we ought to thank G-d for the opportunity we have.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Hi Traveler,

I like how you reframed that idea. God called "a curse" through. I wonder what that term really means.