God(s)

[Justice]

I want to grab these comments from a different thread and see what kind of discussion it leads to.

The terms used for man and god are strikingly similar, in that they can be both singular and plural. The term God HAS BEEN used as both in scripture, and is the root foundation of the confusion. Scripture never meant to say "God is only one being or essence," outside of the fact that nothing else is like "God," as nothing is like "man." But, as you have it, "one" can be interpreted different ways.

It is proper to say that an individual is both "man" and "a man." It is proper to say Deity is both "God" and "a God." That doesn't mean there's just a single God any more than it means there's a single man. All man is of one flesh (kind of flesh) and all God is of one essense (kind of essense).

[prisonchaplain]

And yet, one thing we all agree on is that "as for me and my house," we will only worship THE God.

[Soninme]

Mark 12:28

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

34And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God.

Forgive me but I really don't see the scribe saying there is a multiplicity of unified Gods but rather there is one God (Being) in number and refers to that God as "He" (singular) not "them" (plural)

It is proper to say that an individual is both "man" and "a man." It is proper to say Deity is both "God" and "a God." That doesn't mean there's just a single God any more than it means there's a single man. All man is of one flesh (kind of flesh) and all God is of one essense (kind of essense).

This is a stretch.

The Bible NEVER says there is only one man but many times says there is only one God.

[Just_A_Guy]

Soninme, a bit of context may provide an alternate perspective here.

The point of Mark 12 is to show Jesus triumphant over all those who attempt to confound Him. The chapter begins with a stinging condemnation of the entire Jewish scholarly caste, and then representatives of each Jewish faction go up against Jesus to take their best theological shots. Having stumped the Pharisees and the Sadducees, the scribes (possibly Essenes) take their turn.

The scribe throws Jesus a relative softball, and Jesus replies in kind by quoting the Shema Yisrael. The scribe then moves in for the kill in two ways: first, by slyly denying Jesus' godhood ("there's only one god, and obviously you're not Him"); and second, by trying to draw Jesus out into saying something that might be interpreted as refuting Jewish ritual and making Him guilty of blasphemy.

Jesus recognizes this ("saw that he answered discreetly"--this scribe is not at the brink of a sincere conversion and is not sincere in his praise of Jesus) and His reply--"thou art not far from the kingdom of God"--could, in this light, be interpreted as merely "eh, close enough--I'm not playing anymore". His detection of the two-fold trap would be the reason that "after that no man durst ask him any question".

Bottom line: Mark 12:34 is not a smoking-gun affirmation of the concept of the trinity.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[Justice]

The Bible NEVER says there is only one man but many times says there is only one God.

I never stated it did.

What I said is that the terms "man" and "god" are similar in our language, insomuch that they can be used both as singular and plural. This is a true statement, whether or not you like it.

Of course it would be seen as a stretch if it offers an explanation of how your belief may have been twisted from the truth.

The scripture you quoted "one God" can be either singular or plural in English, as I have shown. That's just the way it is in our language.

In fact, if you read the Bible in other languages the term "God" is more frequently understood in the plural form. I have a good friend who is a 4th year Spanish teacher at the local High School, and served his mission in Mexico. He says the Spanish Bible (and French and German) teach God more in line with what Joseph Smith taught than with what Trinitarians teach. I have another friend who's first language is Spanish and he agrees. God is used and understood in Bibles of other languages more often to be plural than in the mainstream Christian understanding of the English Bible.

It's easy to state "that's not so" and quote a scripture that you understand differently than I do, but if you're going to refute the idea, you need to bring evidence realted to my point, or evidence about how God cannot be plural and singular.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Justice

[Snow]

The terms used for man and god are strikingly similar, in that they can be both singular and plural.

Like goats and hangovers are strikingly similar?

[Justice]

I suppose just about anything can be used as examples of something. But, I don't understand the point you're making with the terms you used. Do you disagree that the terms man and god can both be used as singular and plural?

[Justice]

I don't find the term "there is only one God" in the Bible, that must be how you interpret it, since that would more accurately portray it as numerical than "one God." I did find this:

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

"One God the Father" and "one Lord Jesus Christ" and notice the difference, "of whom" all things were made speaking of the Fahter, and "by whom" all things were made when speaking of the Son. This leans toward 2 in number, since they had a different role in creation.

In fact, searching for "one God" in the Bible, there are 2 hits in the Old Testament, neither of which are definitive (one is talking about Pharoah's dream), the other is in Malachi and states "one GOd" did something, not saying there isn't others. But, here are the other 5 places "one God" appears in the New Testament, noting the use that best fits your interpretation was made by a Scribe, and is still not definitive:

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

1 Timothy 2: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

These uses just aren't definitive of "there is only one God" as you say. One of the verses mentions "one God" and "one Mediator." This suggests that there are 2, but both called God (plural as I suggest).

Other prophets use different language that perhaps more accurately fits your interpretation. Those prophets are all in the Old Testament, and we could discuss those for years and probably not get anywhere.

[Soninme]

I don't find the term "there is only one God" in the Bible, that must be how you interpret it, since that would more accurately portray it as numerical than "one God."

These uses just aren't definitive of "there is only one God" as you say. One of the verses mentions "one God" and "one Mediator." This suggests that there are 2, but both called God (plural as I suggest).

So again, how many capitol "G" Gods are there according to the Bible?

[Soninme]

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

From Justice;

The scripture you quoted "one God" can be either singular or plural in English, as I have shown. That's just the way it is in our language.

Forgive me, I missed how Mark 12:32 and for that matter the others quoted can be shown to be speaking of multiple Gods.

1 Timothy 2: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

How many Mediators?

[bytebear]

Perhaps a better term would be "family of man". But God often talks of his people and that they are the chosen ones. So maybe a better example would be: There is only one Israel, even though there are many individuals and 12 tribes that make up Israel.

[prisonchaplain]

Bytebear, are you trying to show how it is possible for there to be 3 Gods in the Godhead? I found the same phrase in this: Godhead - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism

[Mamas_Girl]

Even long before I joined the LDS Church, or even personally knew any LDS, I disagreed with the idea of one God in three persons. I couldn't understand the whole thing about Jesus' baptism and His Father saying that he was the beloved son, and the Holy Ghost descending in the form of a dove. To me, I always beleived that they were three seperate and distinct personalities. I always view them like the man and woman becoming one at marriage -- they're one in purpose, but two individuals. Same with the Godhead three seperate individuals that are one in purpose.

[bytebear]

Bytebear, are you trying to show how it is possible for there to be 3 Gods in the Godhead? I found the same phrase in this: Godhead - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism

There aren't "3 Gods in the Godhead" There are three persons/beings/entities in the Godhead which are God. But, these three persons are gods in that they individually have the attributes of God. But the term God can be used or thought of in the same sense that other singulars that describe a collection. Family is another good example. You could say there is one true Family and all other Families are false. But a Family has a father, mother, children, grandparents, etc. but they are all one family. I think that is the point that was being made earlier.

[prisonchaplain]

Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2).

I may be assuming incorrectly that the Encyclopedia of Mormonism is authoritative.

[bytebear]

I may be assuming incorrectly that the Encyclopedia of Mormonism is authoritative.

I don't know specifically what you are referring to in it, but as I have said in the past, it is all semantics. Whether we call Jesus "God" or "a God" or a member of the Godhead, or a person in the Trinity, three persons or three Gods, it's all the same thing.

Edited October 25, 2011 by bytebear