God-breathed

[annewandering]

I would be surprised if God devotes a lot of time feeling like He needs to appease nonbelievers. He is the final judge and He knew that going in and so did we. Of course now we have forgotten but He has not.

Yes people end up in what we call Outer Darkness, that is without the presence of God or His light. There arent many because a person has to fully know and knowing go against God.

[AnthonyB]

alexm8,

Maybe some extra tradtional Christians terms might help.

Evanglelicals sometimes equate Justification with Salvation, since it is the beginning of Salvation.

However Salvation really includes a number of parts....

Justification is the process whereby we move from being in the negative with God due to our sin, to being in the positive with God due to Jesus righteousness. It carries a legal connatation and is a once for all declaration.

Santification is the ongoing process of being made holy as we progress to be more like God. There is a great variety of understanding of what this means.

Glorfication is when we are endowed with our new heavenly bodies and are made right for the presence of God.

LDS tend to focus more on santification aspect of salvation and Evanglelicals on justification part but both are parts of God's salvation plan.

[Spartan117]

Having said that, what many of us Protestants find difficult is the apparent LDS belief that works are a prerequisite rather than a product of salvation.

Very lengthy, but the most complete overview of the LDS perspective on salvation, grace, and works that I can find.

https://lds.org/ensign/1981/04/salvation-by-grace-or-by-works?lang=eng

The power to achieve justification does not reside in man ... (justification by works); obedience, commitment, and repentance—these are the works of faith that open up the channels so that the power of the atoning sacrifice of Christ can flow into us, redeem us from sin, and bring us back into the presence of God. Disobedience and wickedness dam those channels. The righteous works in themselves do not save us. The atoning power of God saves us. But our righteous works, activated by our faith in the Savior, are the condition for the operation of that power. Thus, each of us has something to say about whether he will be able to seek the gift and power of the Atonement in his behalf.

[Justice]

I'lll take a shot at describing how LDS view the grace verse works debate.

It's like taking a trip across town in your car to see a friend. The "you don't have to do anything to be saved but believe" sounds like opening the car door, getting in, closing the door, then immediately opening the door and getting back out, to find yourself at your destination, without actually having to do anything.

The LDS view is different. You open the door, get in the car, and actually do everything needful to get there. It involves putting the key in the ignition, starting the motor, putting the car in gear, then physically driving across town, following a provided map, obeying all traffic signs, avoiding obstacles, getting back on course after making wrong turns, and finally arriving at your destination.

We are ridiculed because outsiders look at us and say "you can't get there on your own." What they fail to see is that we believe God provided and made the roads, the road signs, provided the map, and gave us directions along the way, without which the journey would be impossible. Not only that, but making the journey would be impossible with out the car and fuel provided by Christ's atonement. Of course the road map is the scriptures, and the signs are personal revelation and ordinances along the way.

So, all we have to do is "believe" that the provided means (road, signs, map, car, and fuel) can get us there. Faith is the actual driving part, which we would not do if we did not believe the provided way would work. This is all driven by the hope we will reach our destination if we use everything provided to get to our destination.

In the first example, God is 100% responsible for man arriving at a destination. He alone chooses who to "transport" once they get in the car. We view this as unfair or unjust because if God is 100% responsible, and He chooses to only transport some and not others, then He is a respector of persons, and man really does not have agency.

In the second example, God is 100% responsible for providing everything necessary for the man to be saved. The difference between who will be saved and who will not be saved is up to how well the man uses the provided means, without which he could not get there.

Simplistic, maybe. But accurate to a degree.

[Traveler]

Since Justice took a shot at defining salvation - I will give another opinion. This is my opinion and why I find the LDS concept so correct to my line of thinking.

The word salvation has the same root meaning as salvage. For me the whole idea of salvation is a salvage operation that takes place by the grace of G-d. If we think of our lives as a ship wreck then by the grace of G-d there is a salvage operation that takes place. In Genesis chapter 1 verses 1 and 2 we are told what it is that G-d is doing in and the very purpose of creation - To separate the light from the darkness. I believe this is a metaphor for good and evil.

Salvation is simple the act of grace whereby G-d salvages that which is of value to him from our lives. Keep in mind that the soul of man is of great value to G-d. I personally find it hard to believe that it is quite common that there is nothing in many people of any value to G-d. This I believe because G-d sees us all in a manner that many cannot even see themselves.

But we should not be foolish. In scripture G-d has spoken many time concerning those things that we should secure in our lives that G-d may salvage that with our souls. Jesus summarized these things as “treasures in heaven”. I would say this to PC -- what G-d can salvage is not a matter of our works before or after we are converted or saved as much is it is that which is of value to G-d. The point is that whatever we cling to better be something of value to G-d. If not then we must come to an honest choice. Either to give it up or to ask G-d to let us keep it. What we desire to keep and not give up will determine which kingdom into which G-d will or can - by his grace - provide for us.

Therefore I see salvation as a matter of how much of that which G-d values that we have sought for and preserved by our sacrifice. And that which we have obtained that is of value - by the grace of G-d he will salvage every bit of it. But G-d will not salvage anything that is in us that is not of value to him. However, with my view, I do agree with PC. That for the most part - that the most of that which is salvageable to G-d will be added to us after we are converted to Christ.

The Traveler

[alexm8]

alexm8,

I am curious, in LDS teaching does anyone end up in Hell?

Sure there's a Hell; it's just not a fiery, burning pit portrayed by the rest of Christianity. Hell in LDS theology in an unquenchable regret and guilt of conscience. Hell is an emotional pain of "what could have been" or an anguish of guilt incited by our causing of suffering to others. This emotional agony and torment can be far more hellish than bodily torment in a burning pit.

Anything below the Celestial Kingdom is a Heaven/Hell mix that ends with an ultimate Hell called Outer Darkness. Those that cannot abide, or refuse to accept, any portion of the Holy Light will go there. In LDS theology, God is Just. Man will know a full accountability of the choices he/she make based on the opportunity they were given and are judged accordingly.

Surely an all powerful God could easily make sure Hell was empty so unbelievers wouldn't think Him evil, yet what of those who refuse to repent?

You just put the onus back on MAN, not God. If it is MAN who chooses not to repent after having been given the opportunity to do so, then God can judge their choices fairly which makes Him good. If God chooses to condemn first, taking away Man's opportunity to repent, that makes it God's choice. Since he has the power, but not the will to save them, allowing them to suffer for eternity for something beyond their control, God is then accounted evil.

Heb. 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

See also Luke 16:19-31

Neither scripture says we have to accept Jesus before we die. But you bring up the point that we are "judged" after we die. Fair enough.

There is an initial judgement after death that LDS believes will place a departed spirit in either Spirit Prison or Paradise. NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT THE FINAL JUDGEMENT as recorded in Rev 20:12-14. In the final judgement, the grave will yield up her dead, so it cannot be the same judgement as when we die. (I've wondered why Protestants think we need to go through the same judgement twice anyway. Why be judged, go to hell, get resurrected, be judged, go to hell? What's up with that?).

There are several failings with the parable of the beggar. First, and foremost, the parable was given before the bridge of Christ's salvation was placed over the "great gulf" as Jesus' atonement gave him power over hell and the grave. Second, the parable was to the Jews and therefore did not say believe in Christ, but the works of Moses. Third, if those alive weren't willing to follow the law they did have (the opportunity), giving them a second chance wouldn't change anything.

There are no second chances in LDS theology, only that everyone gets a FIRST chance.

[alexm8]

I would be surprised if God devotes a lot of time feeling like He needs to appease nonbelievers. He is the final judge and He knew that going in and so did we. Of course now we have forgotten but He has not.

Yes people end up in what we call Outer Darkness, that is without the presence of God or His light. There arent many because a person has to fully know and knowing go against God.

Anne, God absolutely cares what ALL of His creation thinks and He sorrows at the nonbeliever's disbelief and rebellion. The LDS version of the atonement is the most complete and most just of any other religion and is one of the big reasons I am LDS. Jesus needed to suffer greater than any other creature so that ALL creation would allow compassion and mercy. Even Satan himself will ultimately call God Just, knowing that Jesus was completely innocent but suffered the punishment of the soul He saves. And the adversary hates knowing that.

If God did not need to appease the nonbelievers as well, even those who were saved would question their own salvation. They would ask why God would choose to save them over someone who may have been more righteous and holy, but didn't have the same opportunities they had... That is why all mankind MUST have the same FIRST opportunity to either accept or reject Christ's atonement.

[prisonchaplain]

I just get nervouse whenever there are absolute statements about what God must do, or what circumstances must be, in order for justice to prevail. I know that God is just, and so have resolved myself to not be his counselor, or worse--his ethical instructor.

[alexm8]

I just get nervouse whenever there are absolute statements about what God must do, or what circumstances must be, in order for justice to prevail. I know that God is just, and so have resolved myself to not be his counselor, or worse--his ethical instructor.

I can understand that coming from a Protestant because it's a failing of the rest Christianity's soteriology to account for all the necessary conditions. Like I said, that is one of the big reasons I am LDS as I have studied all forms of Christianity extensively and is one of the gaping holes that exist there. We believe that all the conditions already exist, it is only for us as His creation to gain an understanding of what those conditions and circumstances are.

[prisonchaplain]

First, of course it seems fair to us that God will provide a way for every soul to respond to the gospel message, before being judged. Indeed, I speculate that God ill judge us based on how we respond to what we know.

Where I see the potential for danger, is when we move from speculating about how God's justice works, to declaring "If God is fair, it MUST work this way...otherwise, God is not just." I find this type of reasoning troubling, wherever I see it.

I have heard that another religion was founded because an adolescent determined he could not accept the doctrine of eternal hell. He is said to have declared that he would study the Bible to prove the doctrine of hell was wrong, or he would stop believing if he found that the Bible taught it. Of course, he found what he wanted to find, and eventually his fledgling group became a movement that today numbers about six-million.

I try to approach the scriptures without my own agenda, asking the Spirit to reveal his truth to me. I still am not objective. I've been trained with certain beliefs. However, a humble demeanor is crucial, if I am to understand correctly. I have to be willing for God to correct me, rather than ever thinking I might correct him.

[Justice]

Where I see the potential for danger, is when we move from speculating about how God's justice works, to declaring "If God is fair, it MUST work this way...otherwise, God is not just." I find this type of reasoning troubling, wherever I see it.

We are intelligent enough to determine what is just and what is not. It does not take more brain power than is possessed by a normal, rational human being.

The Book of Mormon teaches us the logic involved.

Alma 42:22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

Mormon 9:19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.

We believe that God lives by law. If not, God would cease to be God, as mentioned in these scriptures. It is evident to us that this is the case because of Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane where He asked if there was another way. There was not. God the Father had to abide by eternal law if He was to save His children. There was only one way, and He knew that way before He ever began creating. God's hands were tied in that He could not devise another way. If He had attempted to do so He would not have been just.

As where God, as believed by Trinitarians, was before law, and made law, and is higher and above law. I believe the fact that God could not provide another way is proof that He follows law and chooses not to deviate. But, I can see where, to you, it seems dangerous for us to declair that God must follow certain laws or He is not just.

We believe He has revealed His plan to man, and that we know what His purposes are, even if only vaguely. It is by that revealed knowledge that allows us to say how God is going to accomplish His designs, and that if He deviates from a certain path He will not be just.

[alexm8]

Well, PC, I believe we agree that there are absolutes (I will refer to as truthes) that exist within the realm of God and religion. I think that we would agree that one MUST accept Christ as their savior for salvation. That is an absolute truth that we must accept. We do not become "ethical instructors" to God by rejecting this principle.

We can identify other absolute truthes that exist by logic, reason, and revelation (personal as well as prophetic). One of those truthes that must exist is for God to be fair is to judge everyone based on the same grounds. It's just logical. If He were to arbitrarily judge people based on a lottery, how can you call that fair?

Indeed, He already has judged us all, and all are found wanting. So, it only makes sense to grant all the same opportunity for redemption. If you agree that one MUST accept Christ for salvation, then by extension for God to be fair, ALL men MUST have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ. There can be no other way lest we make God a liar and a respecter of persons.

In fact, the bible is replete with scripture to this effect. Romans 5:18, John 12:32, 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 4:10, John 5:23, James 1:5, Acts 17:30, John 1:7, and I could go on...

I don't use MUST lightly, but I see no other way to match what we know in scripture with logic and reason.

Edited November 8, 2011 by alexm8

[jayanna]

I think that those who don't know what they are doing will be forgiven...forgive them for they know not what they do.

I think every time we sin we are a nonbeliever, even if it is just for that moment when we lie to ourselves and tell ourselves that we 'need' to sin or that it 'isn't that bad' or worse, that 'it isn't as bad as so-and-so's sin'. I certainly hope that the Savior continually reaches out to this particular occasional 'nonbeliever'. He has always been there for me, with patience, every Sacrament where I repent and am cleansed from my sins once again, He reaches my reaching. It is amazing to me how many chances He gives me.

[Soninme]

In LDS theology, God is Just. Man will know a full accountability of the choices he/she make based on the opportunity they were given and are judged accordingly.

Protestant theology as well.

Originally Posted by Soninme

Heb. 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

See also Luke 16:19-31

Neither scripture says we have to accept Jesus before we die. But you bring up the point that we are "judged" after we die. Fair enough.

Heb. 9:27 tells me, judgement is after death, not after spirit prison or paradise.

Luke 16:19-31 says the rich man died once and was judged to be in torment in Hades and could not come out even though he now knew/believed the truth.

(I've wondered why Protestants think we need to go through the same judgement twice anyway. Why be judged, go to hell, get resurrected, be judged, go to hell? What's up with that?)

We Protestants (this one anyway) understand a non-believer at death does indeed go in spirit to hell because he is judged for not accepting the only payment (Jesus) for his sins, at the resurrection he is again judged, not for salvations sake but for the works he did while in the flesh, to determine, if you will, the level of torment.

Hell is cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:14)

There are no second chances in LDS theology, only that everyone gets a FIRST chance

Protestant theology as well, while one is still living.

[Soninme]

I think every time we sin we are a nonbeliever, even if it is just for that moment when we lie to ourselves and tell ourselves that we 'need' to sin or that it 'isn't that bad' or worse, that 'it isn't as bad as so-and-so's sin'. I certainly hope that the Savior continually reaches out to this particular occasional 'nonbeliever'. He has always been there for me, with patience, every Sacrament where I repent and am cleansed from my sins once again, He reaches my reaching. It is amazing to me how many chances He gives me.

Hi jayanna

My belief is that once I have truely placed my faith in Christ, my salvation, or my eternal destiny, is sealed. I know some may want to jump through thier computer screens right now but if I truely have faith then good works will follow. I like how PC said that works are;

a product of salvation. I'll add that I've come to see the thinking more that good works "fruits" are what prepares one for greater glory in the kingdom,

but works can never save me nor can they keep me saved, only true faith does that.

Now every time I sin I grieve my God who bought me. The Holy Spirit convicts me and leads me to repentance. This is one proof that I am His. I am a sinful fallen man who has been redeemed by the Savior and until I receive a perfected glorified body I will continue to sin for that is my nature, but my salvation, I believe, is in His hands. (John 10:27-30) My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.

I will though grow stronger by the power of the Holy Spirit to sin less and less as I mature in Christ. The blessed assurance of my salvation is my greatest treasure. He is truely amazing.

Thanks

[alexm8]

Heb. 9:27 tells me, judgement is after death, not after spirit prison or paradise.

Luke 16:19-31 says the rich man died once and was judged to be in torment in Hades and could not come out even though he now knew/believed the truth.

Yes, but notice who the rich man calls out to... Abraham. Father Abraham has no power over death. Jesus, on the other hand, DOES have power over sin and death. Are you limiting His reach and power?

We Protestants (this one anyway) understand a non-believer at death does indeed go in spirit to hell because he is judged for not accepting the only payment (Jesus) for his sins, at the resurrection he is again judged, not for salvations sake but for the works he did while in the flesh, to determine, if you will, the level of torment.

Hell is cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:14)

Okay, makes sense about the two judgments, thank you.

However, what of those that had no chance for accepting Jesus as the only payment for sin? Why does God judge them at death and send them to Hell for eternal torment when it was God's choice not to grant them the same opportunities you and I have in the first place? Make sense?

[volgadon]

but works can never save me nor can they keep me saved, only true faith does that.

Please define true faith.

[Soninme]

Yes, but notice who the rich man calls out to... Abraham. Father Abraham has no power over death. Jesus, on the other hand, DOES have power over sin and death. Are you limiting His reach and power?

This parable nor any other teach that one can receive salvation after death.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

However, what of those that had no chance for accepting Jesus as the only payment for sin? Why does God judge them at death and send them to Hell for eternal torment when it was God's choice not to grant them the same opportunities you and I have in the first place? Make sense?

I don't see it that way.

Romans 1:18-23 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

All have a chance to respond to the light they are given. "for God has shown it to them."(verse 19) "His invisible attributes are clearly seen"- All are "without excuse"(verse 20)

As for the "opportunities you and I have", "For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more."

[Justice]

Please define true faith.

I'll take a stab at it, assuming "perfect faith" is at least equal to "true faith:"

James 2: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I really don't know how many more times and in how many different ways it can be said. One either chooses to believe it or not. Faith is not an idle belief, even if expressed vocally. In order for one's belief to become faith it requires doing something that leads to the keeping of one of the two great commandments.

Study verses 22 and 23, where it says why "Abraham believed God." It was because of his works of faith. When the scriptures speak of believing in God, and that being a requirement of being saved, this is the definition implied to "believing in God," or keeping the first 2 commandments taught by Christ.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Justice