God-breathed

[skippy740]

The general thought is that Moses wrote Genesis. However, the point is this, you are not saved by scripture knowledge. You are saved by grace through the faith you have in Jesus. You can be saved having never seen a bible.

One cannot be ignorant and be saved.

1 Nephi 4:14-17

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.

16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

Edited November 3, 2011 by skippy740

[Snow]

One cannot be ignorant and be saved.

Ummm, how educated are children that die in infancy?

[skippy740]

How educated are we in the Spirit World?

[skippy740]

Ummm, how educated are children that die in infancy?

Touche! :)

However, don't they still need their temple work done? Don't they still need to be taught the gospel in the spirit world? Don't they need to accept those ordinances being done on their behalf?

Maybe I should've said that you cannot be exalted to the Celestial Kingdom in ignorance.

Edited November 3, 2011 by skippy740

[Guest gopecon]

My understanding is that the only temple work needed for children who die before 8 is sealing to their parents if that was not done while they were alive. Maybe it's Mormon folklore, but I always heard that those who die prior to accountability were choice spirits who did not need the test of mortality.

To your main point, accountable people are not saved in ignorance. They must willingly accept the Savior and covenant to follow him. You can't stumble into salvation by accident.

[Traveler]

Traveler, do you really believe the Word of God is dangerous???

I believe you have asked a very interesting and important question. Without question the word of G-d is dangerous. It is likely one of the most “dangerous” things mankind will encounter in our journey in mortality and quest for knowledge of good and evil. We learn in Luke chapter 4 verse 10 that Satan uses scriptures to accomplish his desired ends.

On one hand the sacred scriptures are a gift from G-d intended to help us in our mortal journey - but at the same time - holding scripture as infallible gives Satan the upper hand and last word. The only sure infallible way is through Jesus Christ but how can we preserve the knowledge of Jesus Christ through time and generations without scripture?

Scientifically the use of fire is considered the greatest single discovery of mankind. It brings warmth, light and safer cooked food. It turns man from a brute beast to a civilized cultured society. Fire is a great asset - but it is not by any means infallible and completely safe. As great as fire is - its light and heat is dangerous and has caused the death of many - perhaps in one form or another fire has killed more humans than any other single threat.

As fire is to human civilization so are the scriptures to spiritual enlightenment. Despite various arguments man cannot have religion and enlightenment without sacred scripture. Scripture is absolutely necessary. But like fire the misuse of scripture can be more dangerous than the shallow unenlightened existence that would be without it. But with all said and done - I am 100% convinced that the greatest danger of fire or inspired sacred scripture is the absolute belief (for whatever reason) that one will never or can never get burned by it!

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

In a sense scripture is like religion. Of themselves, they are neutral. Great people use them to inspire greatness. Evil people use the same to inspire evil.

I'm not sure our problem is that we believe scripture is infallible, but rather, than we convince ourselves that we are even good, without God directing us.

[Justice]

PC, you've said so many very intelligent things I don't care to try to list them, but this has to rank up near the top.

Let me think about it for a while and I may respond.

[prisonchaplain]

I admit that when I first started as a chaplain, my supervisory chaplain offered me the sage quote about religion being nuetral...Chaplain Irizarry (now retired), if you ever see this...kudos to the best mentor ever!

[alexm8]

In a sense scripture is like religion. Of themselves, they are neutral. Great people use them to inspire greatness. Evil people use the same to inspire evil.

I'm not sure our problem is that we believe scripture is infallible, but rather, than we convince ourselves that we are even good, without God directing us.

There are many neutral tools, like money for example that can be used for good or evil. However, I cannot accept true scripture to be neutral. Evil can reject the tool (through ridicule, pride, etc) to inspire evil, but I don't believe that scripture itself can inspire evil works. (Lest words of Christ be made specious in Matt 7:17-18.) It is one of the things in my mind that separates The Book of Mormon and Bible from the Koran which can, and does, inspire evil.

Same would go for true religion. Following true religion can only inspire greatness. Note that I believe true religion can be found in all religions, even Islam, by following the eternal principles that God writes in all of our hearts (called a conscience). Thus actualizing the scripture that "in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:35)

We cannot accept Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace based on this fact. If we cannot be good without God's guidance, then it places the burden of salvation and guilt on His shoulders, not our own. If God so chooses us or not, it's His choice and thus His accountability. So, one has to ask if God chooses against good by allowing someone to be damned for something beyond their choice, how that a can be "good" God?

[Traveler]

There are many neutral tools, like money for example that can be used for good or evil. However, I cannot accept true scripture to be neutral. Evil can reject the tool (through ridicule, pride, etc) to inspire evil, but I don't believe that scripture itself can inspire evil works. (Lest words of Christ be made specious in Matt 7:17-18.) It is one of the things in my mind that separates The Book of Mormon and Bible from the Koran which can, and does, inspire evil.

Same would go for true religion. Following true religion can only inspire greatness. Note that I believe true religion can be found in all religions, even Islam, by following the eternal principles that God writes in all of our hearts (called a conscience). Thus actualizing the scripture that "in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:35)

We cannot accept Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace based on this fact. If we cannot be good without God's guidance, then it places the burden of salvation and guilt on His shoulders, not our own. If God so chooses us or not, it's His choice and thus His accountability. So, one has to ask if God chooses against good by allowing someone to be damned for something beyond their choice, how that a can be "good" God?

I do not agree. If we could do "good" without G-d's guidance then there would be no reason to look to him for anything. As I read the last paragraph I was convinced there was a serious disconnect somewhere. Either what you are saying is 100% wrong or I do not understand at all what you are trying to communicate. Perhaps someone else - if you understand this post can explain it to me.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

There are many neutral tools, like money for example that can be used for good or evil. However, I cannot accept true scripture to be neutral. Evil can reject the tool (through ridicule, pride, etc) to inspire evil, but I don't believe that scripture itself can inspire evil works. (Lest words of Christ be made specious in Matt 7:17-18.) It is one of the things in my mind that separates The Book of Mormon and Bible from the Koran which can, and does, inspire evil.

Same would go for true religion. Following true religion can only inspire greatness. Note that I believe true religion can be found in all religions, even Islam, by following the eternal principles that God writes in all of our hearts (called a conscience). Thus actualizing the scripture that "in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:35)

I've been reading a story by one who spent a season of his life in the Church of Jesus Christ-Christian (aka Aryan Nations). In it he walks through how scriptures were used to justify White Supremacy and Racial Holy War. The words of the Bible can be used by evil men to inspire evil. Consider also the movie The Book of Eli. In it the antagonist tries to get the last surviving Bible, because he figures he can use its words to inspire his cult following.

Do not misunderstand. The Holy Spirit--who inspired the scripture--is not neutral. However, oh yes, wicked men can take the inspired and turn it to evil. We all have the agency to give in to deception, or to resist it.

Religion has been described as "Humanity's attempt to reach God." In that sense, most religions have a type of Golden Rule (Do unto others as you would have them do unto you). And yet, they inspire murder, even mass suicide. One site as declared Juche one of the 10 largest religions. This is the worship of the North Korean Kim dynasty. Adherence is over 99% in that country.

One could argue that twisting religion makes it "false." However, in every false system there is usually a lot of truth.

So, when I say "religion" and "scripture" are neutral, I do not mean the God behind them. I only mean that we can take God's gifts and processes and accomplish great evil with them. This too is agency.

Edited November 4, 2011 by prisonchaplain

[Soninme]

Same would go for true religion. Following true religion can only inspire greatness. Note that I believe true religion can be found in all religions, even Islam, by following the eternal principles that God writes in all of our hearts (called a conscience). Thus actualizing the scripture that "in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:35)

I would add that religion does not save, my attempts at being good does not save me because (Romans 3:10-12) As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one;

There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”

Acts 10:35 says one must fear Him - the true God (John 17:3). This can only be done through correct teaching and scripture. If we don't have that then our religion is useless.

Our conscience doesn't save us if we don't come to the cross of the true God.

We cannot accept Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace based on this fact. If we cannot be good without God's guidance, then it places the burden of salvation and guilt on His shoulders, not our own. If God so chooses us or not, it's His choice and thus His accountability. So, one has to ask if God chooses against good by allowing someone to be damned for something beyond their choice, how that a can be "good" God?

We can't be good without God's guidance. (see Romans 3 also John 15:4-5) We are born in sin and if one does not seek after God -the true God - that is not His fault.

That God condescends to save anyone shows He is a "good" and merciful God.

[Justice]

I would add that religion does not save, my attempts at being good does not save me because (Romans 3:10-12) As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one;

As long as you don't mean one can sit on their couch at home and not get involved with helping the sick, hungry, poor, widows, or any one in need. Christ's Gospel is a gospel of action. If you're not about and doing good then you cannot claim to love Christ or be His follower.

Though these acts alone cannot save, they are required to show your love of Him who gave the commandments and paid the price for your sins. I can post dozens of pages of scriptures stating action is required of the believer... indeed what one does is the measuring stick for whether or not one is a believer.

We are born in sin and if one does not seek after God -the true God - that is not His fault.

If you mean we must sin because we are born I disagree. We are born into a fallen world where sin is present, even rampant. We are born into a world where we are tempted by evil. We are not force to sin by any outside influence. There is also good here and we are free to choose it.

That God condescends to save anyone shows He is a "good" and merciful God.

Very true. However, I'd like to add a point to this as well. If God is 100% responsible for man reaching the Celestial Kingdom, and the man has no say, then He is not a God of justice. If God is capable of bringing a man to etenal life (not immortality) all by Himself, with no action on the man's part, then God is capable (and must if He is a just God) of saving all men to this same condition.

God does condescend to even manifest to man His will. But, God requires something of the man. Consider these companion scriptures by the same author:

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

This "religion" is what helps a man to keep Christ's commandments, thereby helping him to bne "saved," so long as that religion is built and based on Christ, the Chief Cornerstone, and His commandments.

Matthew 5:

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 25: 32-46 is also very clear. Those who do not keep His commandments to visit the sick, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and help the needy will be set on His left hand and will be cast out. It mentions no great sin that prevents them from being put on His right hand, but apathy, or a lack of compassion and charity. Those who do not do will not gain eternal life (immortality, yes, but not eternal ife).

He is the judge, and He has made know what His criteria will be... "by your works."

Yes, Christ atoned for the sins of mankind, whithout which, man could not save himself no matter what he did. But, with Christ, all things are possible to men.

[volgadon]

Can one be saved by accepting Jesus, yet extort the widows, withold food from the hungry, roob the poor, beat orphans, torment the sick, etc.?

Of course not.

I've heard the evangelical line about good works being the by-product of being saved, yet I look at it this way. In order to fully accept Christ Jesus we have to make good works part of who we are.

[prisonchaplain]

Can one be saved by accepting Jesus, yet extort the widows, withold food from the hungry, roob the poor, beat orphans, torment the sick, etc.?

Of course not.

I've heard the evangelical line about good works being the by-product of being saved, yet I look at it this way. In order to fully accept Christ Jesus we have to make good works part of who we are.

Can I know that I am saved, and then live in that victory, or must I remain uncertain until I reach the throne?

[volgadon]

Can I know that I am saved, and then live in that victory, or must I remain uncertain until I reach the throne?

I don't see it as much a matter of living in uncertainty as realising that being saved is contingent upon living accoridngly. Not too dissimilar to the Orthodox concept of a Podvig but without the asecticism. Salvation is a path to be travelled while on this earth.

[alexm8]

I would add that religion does not save, my attempts at being good does not save me because (Romans 3:10-12) As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”

Acts 10:35 says one must fear Him - the true God (John 17:3). This can only be done through correct teaching and scripture. If we don't have that then our religion is useless.

Our conscience doesn't save us if we don't come to the cross of the true God.

We can't be good without God's guidance. (see Romans 3 also John 15:4-5) We are born in sin and if one does not seek after God -the true God - that is not His fault.

That God condescends to save anyone shows He is a "good" and merciful God.

Then you have a problem with the infallible Bible contradicting itself, because clearly Cornelius was not a believer in the "true God" having no knowledge of Jesus (John 17:3). He was not even a Jewish Proselyte, being a Roman centurion and not circumcised. He was not saved as he did not have the Holy Spirit yet (not until vs. 44). Yet he feared the God he knew and God accepted him, sending him an angel as evidence of His love.

To explain my last paragraph further, for Traveler, too... If we cannot be good without God's guidance then it's God's choice whom He will save, not ours. If it is His choice, the HE alone is accountable for that choice. If God chooses to NOT save someone, when it is within His choice and power to do so, and consign them to eternal Hell, that is an evil God. How can a good God allow someone to suffer eternal torment when, a) it is within his power to save them, and b) when that individual didn't have the choice in the first place?

I will agree with you on, "Our conscience doesn't save us if we don't come to the cross of the true God." Were we will disagree is the timeframe that one can come to accept God. No where in the Bible does it state that you must accept him only in this life. This is one of the big reasons I am LDS; it is the belief that everyone will have a FIRST chance to accept Jesus either in this or the next life.

[alexm8]

Do not misunderstand. The Holy Spirit--who inspired the scripture--is not neutral. However, oh yes, wicked men can take the inspired and turn it to evil. We all have the agency to give in to deception, or to resist it.

My contention, PC, and I stand by it is that true scripture does not INSPIRE evil. You can justify something evil with scripture, but it is not INSPIRED by it. I do not think that someone can read the Bible and say, "I'm going to start slavery because of what it says," or, "I'm going to be gay because it says here..." Yet, wicked men can use it to justify their already evil ways. I guess we will just have to disagree on this point.

Can I know that I am saved, and then live in that victory, or must I remain uncertain until I reach the throne?

We (LDS and Protestant) are actually closer on salvation than many think. The Book of Mormon is full of assurance. "the Lord our God did visit us with assurances that he would deliver us; yea, insomuch that he did speak peace to our souls, and did grant unto us great faith, and did cause us that we should hope for our deliverance in him." (Alma 58:11)

"Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ" (Moroni 10:32)

Where we will disagree is that uncertainty comes from falling away through sin. St. Augustine quoted Paul specifically in 1 Cor. 3:17 and says "Take heed then what thou doest, take heed that thou offend not the Indweller of the temple, lest He forsake thee, and thou fall into ruins. (Sermon 32 on the NT)

Protestants have created this Once Saved, Always Saved because they do know know or understand what can cause the Indweller to forsake someone, thus "destroying" their salvation. It is the "rules" (works) that LDS members keep that allows them to KEEP their salvation. And yet it is these works that we are ridiculed for.

Edited November 5, 2011 by alexm8

[Justice]

Can I know that I am saved, and then live in that victory, or must I remain uncertain until I reach the throne?

You certainly can know. The prophets in the Book of Mormon spoke plainly about this because they were shown our day in vision, and knew the false beliefs that would be among men in the last days.

Moroni 10:21 And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope.

Alma 11:37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

What good does it do if we are washed clean in the blood of the Lamb if we continue to sin? We must continue in repentance until we are made clean, or until we no longer desire to sin. How can we be saved unless we no longer desire to sin?

We must learn to put off the natural man, and become a man who follows every prompting of the Spirit. Some attain that while on earth. Read and ponder what the Lord said to one such person in the Book of Mormon:

Helaman 10: ...and it came to pass as he was thus pondering in his heart, behold, a voice came unto him saying:

4 Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments.

5 And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.

6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.

7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

8 And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done.

9 And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done.

10 And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass.

11 And now behold, I command you, that ye shall go and declare unto this people, that thus saith the Lord God, who is the Almighty: Except ye repent ye shall be smitten, even unto destruction.

12 And behold, now it came to pass that when the Lord had spoken these words unto Nephi, he did stop and did not go unto his own house, but did return unto the multitudes who were scattered about upon the face of the land, and began to declare unto them the word of the Lord which had been spoken unto him, concerning their destruction if they did not repent.

We claim this can be attained, and we claim that it is what God desires for each of us.

We believe that through the atonement of Christ all men may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

Grace or works?

Both.

If you really believe in Christ you will be as Nephi, keeping His commandments without fail, regardless of what comes to you as a result, putting His will before your own. Whether or not you are "saved" is apparent in your thoughts and actions, and will shape what or who you become. It can be a one-time event where you "accept" Him in your heart, but your commitment that follows will be the proof. Most men spend a lifetime trying to become a true followers of Christ.

Can I know that I am saved, and then live in that victory, or must I remain uncertain until I reach the throne?

You can live in that victory. But, to do so in order to be certain, you will live the life of a follower of Christ. Sin casts uncertainty, because there is no promise in sin.

Mosiah 4:

6 I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body—

7 I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world.

8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.

9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

10 And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them, and humble yourselves before God; and ask in sincerity of heart that he would forgive you; and now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them.

[prisonchaplain]

I don't see it as much a matter of living in uncertainty as realising that being saved is contingent upon living accoridngly. Not too dissimilar to the Orthodox concept of a Podvig but without the asecticism. Salvation is a path to be travelled while on this earth.

Is my "contingent salvation" of a nature that I am thinking, "Oh Lord, I believe, and I try so hard...I hope against hope that I am doing good enough?" or, "Praise God, I am walking in my salvation, protected by my God and his angels, and I will continue this walk in faith, knowing that only my willful rebellion and gross neglect will rob of this which I have attained?"

Hopefully my questions take away the false dichotamy of all works vs. all grace, while leaving open the question of how salvation works for us in mortality.

[prisonchaplain]

My contention, PC, and I stand by it is that true scripture does not INSPIRE evil. You can justify something evil with scripture, but it is not INSPIRED by it. I do not think that someone can read the Bible and say, "I'm going to start slavery because of what it says," or, "I'm going to be gay because it says here..." Yet, wicked men can use it to justify their already evil ways. I guess we will just have to disagree on this point.

I'm confused. I said that wicked people can use scripture to inspire evil. I never said that scripture itself inspires evil. So, do we not agree?

Protestants have created this Once Saved, Always Saved because they do know know or understand what can cause the Indweller to forsake someone, thus "destroying" their salvation. It is the "rules" (works) that LDS members keep that allows them to KEEP their salvation. And yet it is these works that we are ridiculed for.

I do not subscribe to "once saved always saved." It is possible to "fall from grace." However, my reading of scripture suggests to me that this is not an easy thing. The one truly saved, who strays, will be chased by God's Spirit. Conviction and discipline will come. S/he will be wooed by God. However, the heart can be hardened, and the faith abandoned.

Having said that, what many of us Protestants find difficult is the apparent LDS belief that works are a prerequisite rather than a product of salvation. I'll add that I've come to see the thinking more that good works "fruits" are what prepares one for greater glory in the kingdom, rather than for getting one's foot in the door (telestial/terrestial glories). So, we are somewhat closer than the typical grace vs. works debates would have it.

[alexm8]

I'm confused. I said that wicked people can use scripture to inspire evil. I never said that scripture itself inspires evil. So, do we not agree?

Well, I maintain that scripture is not neutral. I'll defend that it is a good tree that bears (inspires) good fruit. You can always have evil point to the tree to convince others that the fruit is bad, but that does not make a good tree bad because they say so.Isaiah 5:20

I do not subscribe to "once saved always saved." It is possible to "fall from grace." However, my reading of scripture suggests to me that this is not an easy thing. The one truly saved, who strays, will be chased by God's Spirit. Conviction and discipline will come. S/he will be wooed by God. However, the heart can be hardened, and the faith abandoned.

Having said that, what many of us Protestants find difficult is the apparent LDS belief that works are a prerequisite rather than a product of salvation. I'll add that I've come to see the thinking more that good works "fruits" are what prepares one for greater glory in the kingdom, rather than for getting one's foot in the door (telestial/terrestial glories). So, we are somewhat closer than the typical grace vs. works debates would have it.

The grace vs. works confusion comes from a general ignorance of what Salvation is to the other. LDS members have that moment when they "come to Christ", too, it is called "conversion". Mormons do what they do because they are converted to Jesus Christ and His teachings. Protestants do what they do because they are saved by Jesus Christ and His teachings. To Protestants salvation is a destination which is instantly arrived at. To Mormons it is a journey which salvation begins (and assured) at the first step but can be lost if strayed from the path. It's not far a stretch to say that by grace we are saved, and by our works we stay saved.

So, in that I am glad we can agree on OSAS, but in your view do you know where the line is specifically drawn where one falls from grace? LDS theology generally agrees that anyone worthy of temple recommend is assured. Those who do not keep their baptismal covenants, that is the 1) Law of Chastity, 2) Word of Wisdom, 3) Law of Tithing, and 4) Keeping the Sabbath Holy, are uncertain of salvation. We have other counsel from Prophets that help us keep these four commandments, but that's it. That is the line drawn for us to avoid falling. It's easy.

Our "good works" beyond that are nothing more than laying up our treasures in heaven for the rewards that await us there. Like I said, we are in actuality a LOT closer in theology than at first look.

Edit: Wanted to add that I that I agree if we break God's commandments God will chase after us. Guilt and regret is a powerful motivator and He uses those as effectively as he does peace and comfort. I should know, I've had my share of it :-)

Edited November 5, 2011 by alexm8

[prisonchaplain]

Alex, I'll not pretend we are in complete agreement. However, we are closer than most assume. This is particularly true between LDS and non-Reformed (non-Calvinist) evangelicals.

To answer your specific question, the line we cross, whereby we lose salvation (for us, meaning damnation to the outer darkness...not simply a drop to a lower heavenly kingdom) is not as clear. Where is that line between one who is "backslidden" and when one has blasphemed the Holy Spirit, and so hardened the heart, that repentance is no longer possible? For us, only eternity can tell...we won't give up hope until then.

On the other hand, I've heard repeatedly here that even the LDS process of church discipline (including a declaration that one is apostate) is meant to bring clarity, and perhaps future repentence, rather than an outright condemnation.

[Soninme]

If we cannot be good without God's guidance then it's God's choice whom He will save, not ours. If it is His choice, the HE alone is accountable for that choice. If God chooses to NOT save someone, when it is within His choice and power to do so, and consign them to eternal Hell, that is an evil God. How can a good God allow someone to suffer eternal torment when, a) it is within his power to save them, and b) when that individual didn't have the choice in the first place?

alexm8,

I am curious, in LDS teaching does anyone end up in Hell?

Surely an all powerful God could easily make sure Hell was empty so unbelievers wouldn't think Him evil, yet what of those who refuse to repent?

will agree with you on, "Our conscience doesn't save us if we don't come to the cross of the true God." Were we will disagree is the timeframe that one can come to accept God. No where in the Bible does it state that you must accept him only in this life. This is one of the big reasons I am LDS; it is the belief that everyone will have a FIRST chance to accept Jesus either in this or the next life.

Heb. 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

See also Luke 16:19-31