A Question Of My Own For Joshuak And Anyone Else Interested

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Joshua, what do you believe someone must do to be saved in the Kingdom of God after this life is over? I have a follow-up question so if you feel like answering, please do so.

[JoshuaFKon]

Well ApostleKnight,

I would say (just my opinion) you would need to believe Jesus is the Messiah, Confess that he is your Lord, believe that God raised him from the dead, and know that you are saved only because of His sacrifice, and not because of your good works...oh and you must forgive others.

As for people who have never heard the gospel, I'm not sure, still researching....

Josh

P.S. I'm flattered that you put my name in the post...

[JoshuaFKon]

Come on A.K.!

Don't leave me in suspense! what's the follow-up?!

Josh

[prisonchaplain]

Come on A.K.!

Don't leave me in suspense! what's the follow-up?!

Josh

Let me posit a question that, me guesses, probably at least approaches AK's pending question: What do you say to Mormons who have done all that? They'll say, "I believe in Jesus as my Savior (or Messiah, if you like the Hebrewisms). I know I'm saved by grace (though good works had better follow if the salvation is to stick). I believe your Bible, your Jesus, your grace...so I'm good, right???"

If not, why not? Do you have to pass a doctrinal test to be saved? If so, is it really just grace? Wouldn't learning the so-called correct teachings be considered a work?

(I'm getting 'institutionalized'--I've been hanging out here so long!)

[JoshuaFKon]

What do you say to Mormons who have done all that? They'll say, "I believe in Jesus as my Savior (or Messiah, if you like the Hebrewisms). I know I'm saved by grace (though good works had better follow if the salvation is to stick). I believe your Bible, your Jesus, your grace...so I'm good, right???"

Well....what do you mean by "good works had better follow if the salvation is to stick"

You would need to clarify that...

But I would say that you are a Christian.

Josh B)

P.S. What do Mormons think about Christians....do they go to heaven?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Sorry for the delay.

PC anticipated me completely...he really has been here too long (love ya PC).

The question really becomes, well I've done all the stuff you listed as salvatory requisites...so what are we arguing about? If nothing else, "Mormons" are just "trying too hard."

Where did Jesus ever say, "And all ye who believe ye must tithe, and worship God in temples, etc... shall stand on my Father's left hand at that great Judgment Day." Because if Jesus didn't teach that in the Bible...which is all we supposedly need...then Mormons are saved just like non-LDS Christians.

And yes, LDS believe that all Christians (non-LDS and LDS) will live in a degree of eternal glory. Even the "lowest degree of glory," the Telestial Kingdom, is so wonderful Joseph Smith taught we'd kill ourselves to get there if we ever beheld it.

[JoshuaFKon]

Well, A.K.

since we both agree, that we are both "christians"

I hope we can look at my questions as a disscussion between brothers in Christ, not as Mormon vs. Anti-Mormon.

then Mormons are saved just like non-LDS Christians.

And yes, LDS believe that all Christians (non-LDS and LDS) will live in a degree of eternal glory. Even the "lowest degree of glory," the Telestial Kingdom, is so wonderful Joseph Smith taught we'd kill ourselves to get there if we ever beheld it.

Josh B)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Well my point is, Joshua, that if "Mormons" are saved by Jesus just like all other Christians, why do you concern yourself so much with our beliefs? I mean if we're harmlessly over-zealous, what's the big deal?

[JoshuaFKon]

Well my point is, Joshua, that if "Mormons" are saved by Jesus just like all other Christians, why do you concern yourself so much with out beliefs? I mean if we're harmlessly over-zealous, what's the big deal?

Isn't Truth, for the sake of truth, a worthy goal in and of itself?

Besides, if you're right...why would I want to lose a level in heaven?

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

Well my point is, Joshua, that if "Mormons" are saved by Jesus just like all other Christians, why do you concern yourself so much with out beliefs? I mean if we're harmlessly over-zealous, what's the big deal?

Isn't Truth, for the sake of truth, a worthy goal in and of itself?

Besides, if you're right...why would I want to lose a level in heaven?

Josh B)

:) Jesus sees everything, and he is fair..

Do you believe that?

If he is fair, those who try harder, should get blessed a little more.

If he isn't fair, he certainly isn;t the God taught about in the bible.

Just a little thought!

[Brother Dorsey]

Well my point is, Joshua, that if "Mormons" are saved by Jesus just like all other Christians, why do you concern yourself so much with out beliefs? I mean if we're harmlessly over-zealous, what's the big deal?

Isn't Truth, for the sake of truth, a worthy goal in and of itself?

Besides, if you're right...why would I want to lose a level in heaven?

Josh B)

Oh for crying out loud Josh...please stop this charade! You are asking LDS members to defend their faith with evidence...you might as well ask us to prove there is a God, or prove that Jesus even lived! I could find numerous pieces of literature that wouold "prove" that point, just as you can find numerous pieces that would disprove it....It's our faith you are questioning...not our beliefs. Josh...if you really, really are a seeker of truth...then the answer is right there in your Bible in front of you...Just a Joseph Smith was searching for the truth and found it so can you...ASK God to give you truth, pray and ASK with faith...he will make it manifest to you....you will never find truth by questioning anothers faith...trust me Josh NO ONE can know the truth without sincere prayer. Either way please stop with your ridiculous line of questioning and go to the source for the truth....God!

[JoshuaFKon]

Oh for crying out loud Josh...please stop this charade! You are asking LDS members to defend their faith with evidence...you might as well ask us to prove there is a God, or prove that Jesus even lived!

If I doubted that...those would be my first questions...

Josh B)

[Outshined]

Oh for crying out loud Josh...please stop this charade! You are asking LDS members to defend their faith with evidence...you might as well ask us to prove there is a God, or prove that Jesus even lived! I could find numerous pieces of literature that wouold "prove" that point, just as you can find numerous pieces that would disprove it....It's our faith you are questioning...not our beliefs. Josh...if you really, really are a seeker of truth...then the answer is right there in your Bible in front of you...Just a Joseph Smith was searching for the truth and found it so can you...ASK God to give you truth, pray and ASK with faith...he will make it manifest to you....you will never find truth by questioning anothers faith...trust me Josh NO ONE can know the truth without sincere prayer. Either way please stop with your ridiculous line of questioning and go to the source for the truth....God!

He isn't looking for any "answers"; his anti-Mormon website tells me that.

[JoshuaFKon]

Believe what you want....I'm tired of defending myself.

But do you dare to try and answer my questions?

Josh B)

[Outshined]

Believe what you want....I'm tired of defending myself.

Your website speaks for itself.

But do you dare to try and answer my questions?

It looks like you've been ansered by several people, but didn't get the "answers" you were fishing for. I'm unimpressed.

[Guest MrsS]

Believe what you want....I'm tired of defending myself.

But do you dare to try and answer my questions? Josh B)

Go to your room Josh, and read. Don't you dare come back to this site until you have read every single one of the references that have been given to you. Read and studied AND PRAYED OVER AND ABOUT.

Go away. Be gone.

[JoshuaFKon]

It looks like you've been ansered by several people, but didn't get the "answers" you were fishing for. I'm unimpressed.

The answers I'm "fishing for" are ones that make sense.

If you think you are a reasonable person. Post the "answers" I have recieved and I will show you why I don't like them.

I'll even let you have the last word after I answer.

Josh B)

Josh B)

Mrs S.,

If you list the references here I will read them

[Dr T]

Mrs S,

You are a mother. No question. :)

[Princess3dward]

It looks like you've been ansered by several people, but didn't get the "answers" you were fishing for. I'm unimpressed.

The answers I'm "fishing for" are ones that make sense.

If you think you are a reasonable person. Post the "answers" I have recieved and I will show you why I don't like them.

I'll even let you have the last word after I answer.

Josh B)

Josh B)

Mrs S.,

If you list the references here I will read them

I think you should have read them all as given.

MrsS.. I loved how that was put!

[LionHeart]

Isn't Truth, for the sake of truth, a worthy goal in and of itself?

This reminds me of something a friend once told me. He said that he was attending a religion class at B.Y.U. and the professor held up the KJV bible and said to his students "Any of you can give me any principle; any principle you can think of, and I can prove it correct with this book..But, I will also prove it wrong with this same book."

So in other words, you can read scripture all you want, but you will not have the true understanding of them if you don't read them with the right spirit.

Yes, truth, for the sake of truth, is a worthy goal in and of itself, but there are so many interpretations of truth. All of them could not be the real one. The only way to get the real one is through the spirit of God. He is the one who knows all truth. But He's not going to give it to anyone who has no intentions of living it; regardless of whether they like it or not.

That's my point of view anyway.

L.H.

[boyando]

Josh:

I hope that you will understand, were the anger comes from. I myself have been on this site for about ten months and came here to partake of what I call a little "Mormon Meat" or better said, to dive into the subjects in the gosple that are deeper than what can be covered in a Sunday School Class.

In ten months, you would have thought that I could have talked about something that would have interested me. I would have to say that if it had not been for the interest that I have for the people on this site, I would not have a reason in the world to come back.

Here is were my anger is coming from. I don't get to discuss uplifting things. Instead I read thread after thread, started by someone who most likely is not a member of the Mormon faith, asking to defend a part of my believe or my believe as a whole.

I have a lot of respect for the non member's who have stuck around and ask qeustion's to learn a little bit about my faith. Iam getting real tired of people who claim that they are Christians and come to this site to save us evil Mormons from a trip to hell or the atheist who tell me that only a fool would believe in a God. I am sorry if we as a group have made asumptions about you, incorrectly. If history is a good teacher, time will decide if you are one who realy want's to learn the truth or someone who after a short while, get's angry because they can't break the faith of those who, know what I know. I can break my faith but you can not.

Let me tell you a story, that may help explain why I'm not interested in answering your six qeustions. As you may already know, many young men in my Church, choose to go on a mission, when they are around nineteen years old. So it was with me. Over twenty nine years ago, me and a companion, were invited into a home were a man told us he had been waiting years to meet some Mormons. Don't jumb ahead in the story, cause it most likely isn't the story that you think I'm going to tell. He was excited to pull a book off the shelf, titled true story's of the Mormon's. His very first story in the book was about how Brigham Young, not only had many wife's but kept 250 young women in the tower of the Salt Lake Temple. The only way that the auther of the book knew about the 250 women, is when he interviewed the only one to escape the temple. The woman claimed that she escaped by jumping from a window into the Great Salt lake.

Hey, me and my companion were both young, so I hope to be forgiven for busting out in laughter. The problem with this story is that the Salt Lake Temple and the Great Salt Lake are five miles apart and the Salt Lake Temple was not completed untill after Brigham had died.

This man would not give up and he kicked us out of his house after a couple of more story's that were easly debunked. He never excepted anything we said cause he was invested in proving that we wrong.

In the years since my mission. Many have hit me with qeustions like your six. Some took a lot of work to answer to my saticfaction but none of those qeustions were uplifting or drawed me closer to God.

Here's hoping that we all wan't the same thing, too draw closer to God. Humbly yours - Allmosthumble

[Guest ApostleKnight]

allmosthumble, well said.

Too much this board becomes a sounding board for those who aren't intellectually honest enough to reasearch our beliefs, but who instead have degrees in parrotology (the study of parrots) and who faithfully parrot the anti-mormon slush they've embraced for whatever reason.

I too wish we could get into stuff not covered in Sunday school (because of the time constraints there and because most lessons must be tailored to the lowest common denominator). Oh well, I guess there's just going to be one JoshuaK after another, thinking they're the first ones to ask us LDS these questions and impressing themselves immensely in the process, patting themselves on the back in their mind, where their "logical arguments" get rave reviews...from themselves.

Can we say...yuck? Excuse me while I intellectually vomit after reading Joshk's posts......ahhhh, much better.

[prisonchaplain]

Well my point is, Joshua, that if "Mormons" are saved by Jesus just like all other Christians, why do you concern yourself so much with our beliefs? I mean if we're harmlessly over-zealous, what's the big deal?

Having played AK's advocate (LOL), now let me play Josh's mean cousin.

Let us assume that our assumption are all correct. Let us assume that most of us have received "initial salvation." In other words, we've been converted. So, we're all Christians.

Can we lose our salvation?

1. LDS say, "Yes. If you do not endure to the end, you can lose it. In fact, we don't like to say too strongly that we've got it, for fear that we'll lose it if we're cavelier or overly confident in our own holiness." Armenian Christians likewise will say, "Yes, you can deny your own salvation, you can walk away from it."

2. So, what are some ways we could steer away from the path of salvation? Bad deeds? Of course. Without sincere repentence, they can lead to a hardened heart. What about false doctrine?

Aye, there's the rub. The truly saved Christian will grow in the wisdom and works of the LORD. So, what of the one who does not? What of the one who is swayed by false teachings, and led to a belief system that so

contradicts God's revelation of himself, that it is in fact a different religion. The faith becomes one that is to a false god?

The question is an open one. However, both evangelical and Mormon apologists contend that the other side is, at best, missing some precious truths. And that, im always ho, is why we continue these dialogues. Besides, its refreshing to talk about matters of faith with people who care.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Aye, there's the rub. The truly saved Christian will grow in the wisdom and works of the LORD.

PC, you've said this often, and I've often wondered what you base this belief on. I mean, it's one thing for Jesus to say being baptized is fulfilling all righteousness, and for Peter to preach on Pentecost to repent and be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, and for Paul to say accepting Christ as our Savior is necessary for salvation...but where does it say that the saved Christian must grow in wisdom and works to be saved?

[Outshined]

The answers I'm "fishing for" are ones that make sense.

No, you want the ones that fit your agenda of "disproving" the LDS faith. Trust me, we see plenty of that stuff on LDS boards; you aren't the first.

As I said, you don't want answers; your site makes it quite obvious that you had your mind made up before you came here. Working to give any more than you've been given here already is a waste of time. Instead, just check some of the links on my site for your answers.