Teaching others about the "burning in the bosom"

[prisonchaplain]

Spartan you point to a common practice in religion and politics. When I bring together seemingly competing facts, I am defending the faith. When you do so, you are being illogical, and simply unwilling to face reality.

When engaging in religious discussion that approach "debate" status, we simply have to realize what is happening. When I am defending my faith, I grant myself every benefit of the doubt, and I require you to overwhelmingly disprove my sacred truths. Of course, in religious matters, this is all but impossible. When I attack, I grant you no mercy, I assume you simply need to wake up to the truth, and when I cannot easily convince, I raise my voice, hoping to bully you into agreement.

That's all fair, isn't it?

[Spartan117]

Spartan you point to a common practice in religion and politics. When I bring together seemingly competing facts, I am defending the faith. When you do so, you are being illogical, and simply unwilling to face reality.

Sad but true.

When engaging in religious discussion that approach "debate" status, we simply have to realize what is happening. When I am defending my faith, I grant myself every benefit of the doubt, and I require you to overwhelmingly disprove my sacred truths. Of course, in religious matters, this is all but impossible. When I attack, I grant you no mercy, I assume you simply need to wake up to the truth, and when I cannot easily convince, I raise my voice, hoping to bully you into agreement.

That's all fair, isn't it?

There is no "fair" about it. I prefer to attack how the person is attacking, not necessarily what they're defending. If someone is using faulty logic or a double standard, then I want to expose that. Once those walls start coming down then there is a chance that we might find some common ground and actually further the conversation instead of yelling at each other.

It is always almost the case that the other person has a misconception about Mormonism. It's an entirely different "debate" when one person is a member of a restoration church and the other is Catholic, then if you have a Protestant and Catholic because the subject matter is vastly different. If I'm having a discussion with an Evangelical, I don't have to "overwhelmingly" disprove a thing. I have additional scripture that they don't have. It clarifies all the mucky issues like "interpretation" for me. If I was a Catholic then the playing field is more even but it would be much harder to get anywhere. It's the same arguments over and over which is why they started having councils and coming up with creeds.

[prisonchaplain]

There is a better way, I admit: Denver Seminary > Articles > Bridging the Divide: The Continuing Conversation between a Mormon and an Evangelical

[Spartan117]

There is a better way, I admit: Denver Seminary > Articles > Bridging the Divide: The Continuing Conversation between a Mormon and an Evangelical

My wife had Millet as her Book of Mormon professor. I think she told me that Millet and an Evangelical counterpart used to have public "conversations" that you could attend.

[spamlds]

Except it does not quite work like that. The typical traditional Christian believes that the Bible is inspired of God. Therefore, it is the "home plate" or measure. You bring to him/her the BoM and say, "Here's another testament that is inspired of God." It's not going to get the same favor. In fact, besides look at the BoM itself, the traditionalist is going to compare it to the Bible, to see if it measures up. S/he's going to look at those teachings, such as eternal hell, to see if the BoM contradicts it.

Fair or not, the BoM will carry a burden of proof. The status quo is to reject it. You'll have to convince that the BoM is true. Proposing that the BoM should be assessed on a level playing field with the Bible is a non-starter for most traditionalists. We will not grant it that kind of favor.

Instead, you'll have to simply present it, pray that God woo the investigator, and see who has ears to hear.

I don't mean to say this in a disrespectful manner, prisonchaplain, but you have give us the reason why you are not a latter-day saint yet.

Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice..." (John 10:27). A person who is "elect" (and everyone is "elect" in a specific moment in time during their life, when God calls them) will hear the voice of the Good Shepherd in the pages of the Book of Mormon. He will feel the burning testimony, or the sublime peace that Jonathan Edwards described, as they peruse its pages. Those who dilly-dally, searching the pages of scripture, thinking they have eternal life, do just as the Pharisees did.

Imagine any sectarian minister today as a Pharisee. He's a well-meaning, educated, devout student of the scriptures. He's not a bad guy. Then, some new upstart comes along, lacking his educational background, who never when to a seminary or had any theological training, who tells the Pharisee that he's got it wrong. That's what Jesus did--and the Pharisees didn't like it.

Even guys like Nicodemus, who were attracted to Jesus' doctrine had to be careful, because they didn't want to lose their position of privilege and respect among their peers. They had to be very guarded. The had a vested interest in the outcome. It was a lot to ask to get a Pharisee to accept Jesus. Even a converted Pharisee like Saul of Tarsus had difficulty converting other Pharisees. The people that did convert did so because of the spiritual witness that came to them.

The Pharisees only became the bad guys when they were unwilling to see the scriptures differently--to trust the impressions of the heart over what their indoctrination and years of study told them--that "out of Galilee ariseth no prophet" (John 7:52).

When we learn that the Bible isn't common ground, that it is the source of contention between 1000 bickering Christian sects, we'll see what the Book of Mormon really gives us. The most direct path to knowledge is in the Sacred Grove, not in the pages of the Bible. The testimony that comes from the Sacred Grove is what harmonizes the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

[Vort]

I don't mean to say this in a disrespectful manner, prisonchaplain, but you have give us the reason why you are not a latter-day saint yet.

Much of what you write may be true, but pointing the finger at PC is unjustified and mistaken. Neither you nor I can look into his heart, judge his intent, or divine his standing before God.

PC seems like an honest and upright man to me. I have little doubt that, at some point in his progression, he will do what we all must do and join the kingdom of God. At this point, he apparently has not found reason to believe that the LDS Church is that kingdom. I am confident that such knowledge will come in time to all the honest in heart.

[prisonchaplain]

I don't mean to say this in a disrespectful manner, prisonchaplain, but you have give us the reason why you are not a latter-day saint yet.

Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice..." (John 10:27). A person who is "elect" (and everyone is "elect" in a specific moment in time during their life, when God calls them) will hear the voice of the Good Shepherd in the pages of the Book of Mormon. He will feel the burning testimony, or the sublime peace that Jonathan Edwards described, as they peruse its pages. Those who dilly-dally, searching the pages of scripture, thinking they have eternal life, do just as the Pharisees did.

Too many LDS folk have prayed the Moroni Prayer, and have wondered why they did not sense either a burning nor a detectable increase in peace. Most figure it will come, and determine to remain faithful until it does.

Some here are aware that I actually did read through the BoM during a spiritual retreat, a couple of years ago. I won't pretend I did it justice, nor was I yearning for it to be true. Yet, I was as open as I could be in asking the Spirit to direct my thoughts and highlight truth.

Like a fair number of LDS, I left the experience with no confirmation. Unlike those others, though, I had no reason to align myself with it. The faith I have has and does sustain me. At the same time, I do not shut myself off from it, and continue to gain blessing through my time here.

Imagine any sectarian minister today as a Pharisee. He's a well-meaning, educated, devout student of the scriptures. He's not a bad guy. Then, some new upstart comes along, lacking his educational background, who never when to a seminary or had any theological training, who tells the Pharisee that he's got it wrong. That's what Jesus did--and the Pharisees didn't like it.

Even guys like Nicodemus, who were attracted to Jesus' doctrine had to be careful, because they didn't want to lose their position of privilege and respect among their peers. They had to be very guarded. The had a vested interest in the outcome. It was a lot to ask to get a Pharisee to accept Jesus. Even a converted Pharisee like Saul of Tarsus had difficulty converting other Pharisees. The people that did convert did so because of the spiritual witness that came to them.

Jesus offered a bit more than spiritual witness. There were the couple of dozen recorded healings in the gospel, the untold numbers alluded to at the end of John's gospel, and the exorcisms of demons, as well as his raising of Lazarus from the dead. Beyond that, despite allusions to Jesus' lack of education, he debated successfully with the teachers of the law, leaving the crowds amazed that he taught with such authority. And yet, in the end, despite all that, it was indeed the spiritual witness that pushed his followers to full devotion.

The Pharisees only became the bad guys when they were unwilling to see the scriptures differently--to trust the impressions of the heart over what their indoctrination and years of study told them--that "out of Galilee ariseth no prophet" (John 7:52).

Power mongering, status, corruption...these guys weren't good. Jesus called them for what they were--pretty on the outside, dead on the inside. They were a generation of vipers. Their true nature came out when they handed the Son of God over to Caesar to be crucified. Sorry, but their sin was not remaining with Protestantism instead of joining a Restorationist group.

When we learn that the Bible isn't common ground, that it is the source of contention between 1000 bickering Christian sects, we'll see what the Book of Mormon really gives us. The most direct path to knowledge is in the Sacred Grove, not in the pages of the Bible. The testimony that comes from the Sacred Grove is what harmonizes the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Oh we Protestants do not bicker that much. We get together for conferences, we join associations, we pray for one another, speak at each other's events, cooperate for social causes, and even work with each other in prison chaplaincy departments...oh wait...the other guy is a Catholic priest...yeah, we don't bicker that much.

[Forget-Me-Not]

I have not yet taken the time to read more than a couple of the responses to the OP, but I would say that spiritual manifestations are personal and cannot really be shared from one person to another. A telling of the experience can be shared, but the experience itself is for the person/persons to which it is given by the Spirit, so there will likely always be those who doubt and disbelieve something like this is of God when they have not experienced it.

I've had a number of spiritual experiences where I've received communication from the Spirit but none that I would ever describe as a burning in the bosom. Though, I did have an experience several months ago which some people maybe would have described in that particular way with the kind of physical manifestation it produced.

I was experiencing great anxiety with a certain aspect of my personal life and was in such turmoil and despair that one Sunday morning my stomach and abdomen felt in a state of raw and inflamed churning. During the passing of the sacrament that day I began pleading in prayer for help in my circumstances.

There is no need to explain what I was in turmoil over or what I was asking of God, but in the course of my pleading, I felt a very real and literal physical calming sensation begin just under my color bones, which washed gently down through my torso to just below my waist, replacing the painful anxiety symptoms with the sweetest and most gentle sensation of peace and comfort.

In gratitude just as I began thanking my Heavenly Father, however, doubt began to creep into my mind (oh me of little faith?) as I had never had a spiritual experience that was so plainly manifested in such a physical way and I began to wonder if I had actually experienced what I had, even though all discomfort was gone and had been replaced by calming peace. With my doubts, though, I began to plead again as before, when the same, yet gentler, sense of that sweet peace washed through me again, and I was given to thank my Heavenly Father for reassuring me in my weakness and doubt.

I am certain that upon hearing of that experience there some who would scoff, and upon telling a relative of it, he seemed convinced that it was only the result of what I wanted and expected to receive so that I caused it to happen within myself. No, he was quite wrong, and I certainly wasn't expecting anything of the kind, having pled in prayer for many months (seemingly in vain) in my circumstances, before that day.

I've had many different kinds of life experiences, but for me I've found that those which have truly come from the Spirit of the Lord are singular in their impact, regardless of the mode of transmission, or how strong or gently they were given, and even as my doubts began on that Sunday (or maybe as Satan endeavored to cause me to doubt) I still knew within, through my doubts, from whence the washing of peace had come, and was reassured with a second witness that this was so.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Finally finished reading all your responses in this thread thus far. Very interesting posts and exchanges. I've very much enjoyed learning from them. :)

[skippy740]

If you want to teach about the 'burning in the bosom', you need to simplify it as though you're teaching kids.

The way I did it was to teach kids:

"How do you feel when you help your mom clean the dishes?"

- "Good"

"Why do you feel good?"

- "I don't know"

"That's the Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost is telling you to your heart that helping your mom is good! As we teach you, look for those good feelings, okay?"