The Bible and the Book of Mormon

[rameumptom]

If we are truly saved by grace alone, and other christian sects believe this (which I doubt is true) then why do they even have Sunday services? Aren't they already saved? What is the purpose of having another chat about it?

Because the saved portion here only saves us from death and hell. All the extra faith we develop, our obedience, etc., helps to sanctify us and prepare us to receive a greater reward in heaven.

[Spartan117]

Because the saved portion here only saves us from death and hell. All the extra faith we develop, our obedience, etc., helps to sanctify us and prepare us to receive a greater reward in heaven.

That makes sense for Mormons, but I think Sister was asking why the 'justification by grace alone' crowd would bother doing any sort of good works (even going to church on Sunday) if there was no consequence to it, good or bad.

[Dravin]

That makes sense for Mormons, but I think Sister was asking why the 'justification by grace alone' crowd would bother doing any sort of good works (even going to church on Sunday) if there was no consequence to it, good or bad.

It should be noted that justified by grace alone isn't the same thing as once saved only saved which is the doctrine that SIF's comment really seems to be directed at. And of course, even if it isn't required for justification one can still do something because there are blessings attached.

[Blackmarch]

Just a thought that I had...so for those that are LDS if you are faithful and keep the commandments and have a marriage that is sealed for time and all eternity and you endure to the end and receive all of your Temple endowments you will go to the Celestial Kingdom more than likely, is that correct? Well for those people that are non-LDS won't they end up in either the Terrestial or Telestial Kingdom's even if they don't do all of those things? Also, in comparing Christianity vs. LDS, Christian's maintain they are saved by grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). This goes against what it says in 2 Nephi 25:23

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

So let's compare the two now...

Christian's believe they are saved by grace not of works as I have stated with the above Bible passage, but the LDS hold that we are saved by grace after all that we can do, correct? So when do you know if you have done enough? Is there ever any assurance that you will be saved, or do you just hope by doing all that you can do and relying on Christ's sacrifice to make up the slack that you'll be saved and go to the Celestial Kingdom?

If the LDS Church is right, then those who don't agree with it, the worst that can happen to them is ending up in either the Telestial or Terrestial Kingdom, right?

If the Christian is right, in by saying that we are only saved by Christ's sacrifice and that is what we have to rely upon, not our works as Ephesians 2:8-9 states, then those who rely on their works (LDS) will be cast into Hell for all eternity and those who rely wholly upon Christ will be saved or go to heaven.

What do you all think about this? Doesn't it seem as though if you are not LDS and are just a Christian that you have less to lose so to speak?

The reason Mormons dont talk a lot about gods grace is because mormons believe its part and parcel of everything along the way- your life, commandments, rites and rituals, repentance, faith, repentance, obedience, commandments, to even each second you are granted life, and so on and so forth to the point where one is perfected and exalted on high (and even then im not sure if we will not have need of it)..... As soon as Gods grace is taken away from any part of the process youre screwed. Which makes it almost a non issue in an lds context- everything we are, is by the grace of god, everything weve been given has been given by the grace of god, and everything we have been commanded to do has been by the grace of God.

God must be just he cannot play favorites, he cannot forgive one person of a sin and punish another for that same sin. This is where christ comes in, Christ took the punishment for breaking the laws so that we could be provided with a period in which we could repent and realign ourselves with what is required to be in Gods presence and in that process be sanctified... But that in no way means that Christ can undo those requirements, in otherwords by the time we get to heaven we need to be both able and willing to dot every i and cross every t that God requires to be able to stand in his presence. Christ just provides an only and very good means of accomplishing that.

[prisonchaplain]

There is a BIG difference between Salvation and Exaltation, before claiming you know what we believe (about grace and works), you should probably learn the difference between the two. THEN we can have a conversation if you still think you need one.

Here is a starting point for you Have You been Saved?

Our beliefs are still very different, but you've hit the nail on the head with this issue. We both believe that salvation from hell (outer darkness) is by grace alone. In fact, LDS believe nearly all are saved from this, whether they have a conversion experience in this life or not.

On the other hand, we both also believe that somehow, in heaven, those who are more faithful, who sacrifice more, who work harder, and love God more deeply, will have a different experience. LDS define this as entering a higher kingdom, and even within that kingdom, achieving or not achieving exaltation. We traditionalists simply refer to parables, such as the sower and of the seeds and the talents, and suggest that rewards range from greater to greatest.

There are still tremendous differences, but most grace vs. works debates pretend that simple salvation from hell is the same as exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom.

[Guest gopecon]

I got to comment on something that keeps coming up here. I think it's a mistake to equate the LDS understanding of salvation from death (via the free gift of resurrection given to all man by Jesus) with the salvation traditional Christian's talk about. I think that we are trying too hard to find common beliefs in this situation. It's a bit disingenuous of us to equate salvation from death (resurrection) with a traditional Christian's being "saved".

I assume that traditional Christianity believes in the resurrection of all mankind (correct me if I'm wrong on this). If this is the case, then we agree on resurrection (i.e. salvation from death). This has little to nothing to do with being saved from our sins (although it was a part of the Atonement). I appreciate PC's post that attempts to find real common ground (size of the reward vs. kingdom of glory is a fair, apples to apples comparison of our ideas). I believe that a lot of our disagreements with other Christians are often amplified by using similar words with different meanings and nuances.

We do believe in being saved from our sins by the grace of God, and that this is essential for our salvation/exaltation. "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel" Article of Faith#2. Where we get hung up is on the obedience - many Christians believe that the Holy Spirit leads the true Christian to good works, so they are a sign of being saved, while we believe that we must choose to exert ourselves in our discipleship to maintain the covenant relationship that saves us.

[mnn727]

You know, it really bugs me when someone asks a question and we spend days and pages explaining the answer only to have the original poster disappear and never be seen again.

[sister_in_faith]

You know, it really bugs me when someone asks a question and we spend days and pages explaining the answer only to have the original poster disappear and never be seen again.

Ah, but they are the ones missing out, and we still had fun doing it!