iinarihoudai Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I was wondering, do you think you can lose your temple recommend if you do not support prop 8 or anything like it? I believe that missionary work is the only right course of action not forcing people to adhere to our belief system. However, the question on whether or not you are sympathetic to groups that are contrary to the gospel leaves me wondering that if I were too open about this opinion I may run the risk of losing my recommend. I have noticed that other liberal Mormons also tend to use a pseudonym as well which makes me wonder if this is something I need to be concerned with. I can't ask my Bishop either because the last thing I want to hear is, Sister please return your recommend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annewandering Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 do you denounce the church for this? do you question the doctrines of the church ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinarihoudai Posted November 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 No. Not at all. If I denounced the church I wouldn't care about my recommend. . . I question the method employed by the church regarding gay marriage. I believe that making it a law that homosexuals can not marry is forcing them to follow our belief system which is not conducive to missionary work. I do NOT question that marriage is ordained of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I was wondering, do you think you can lose your temple recommend if you do not support prop 8 or anything like it?Absolutely. If you don't support Prop 8, you are subject to immediate termination ^B^B^B^B^B^B^B^B^B^B^B excommunication. This is true, even if you are not a Californian, or for that matter an American. I am pretty sure that "Do you affiliate or sympathize with any groups that oppose Proposition 8?" is now a standard temple recommend question.I believe that missionary work is the only right course of action not forcing people to adhere to our belief system. However, the question on whether or not you are sympathetic to groups that are contrary to the gospel leaves me wondering that if I were too open about this opinion I may run the risk of losing my recommend. I have noticed that other liberal Mormons also tend to use a pseudonym as well which makes me wonder if this is something I need to be concerned with.Yes, liberal Mormons are a beleaguered minority who justly receive the wrath of their fellow, more righteous, Saints. Repentance is possible, but only after they go through hell.I can't ask my Bishop either because the last thing I want to hear is, Sister please return your recommend.Be afraid! Be very afraid! If your bishop ever found out that you did not support Proposition 8, I think the Danites might be on your trail!If I were you, I'd start heading for Mexico now. Of course, there are lots of Mormons in Mexico... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I believe that making it a law that homosexuals can not marry is forcing them to follow our belief systemI could not agree more! In fact, I think we should do away with laws against rape, embezzlement, and speeding, for that very reason. We should not be trampling on people's sacred Free Agency by methods so crude and Satanic as making and enforcing a social contract.Anarchists, unite and organize!Oh, wait... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 If you are unsure, then I suggest you DO discuss it with your bishop. If you feel you have reached the point where you cannot support your church leaders, then I think you know the answer. Lying to your bishop to retain your recommend is not an advisable path to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinarihoudai Posted November 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 That's just it john, I DO support my leaders. I sustain my Bishop and the General Authorities and other leaders in their callings. That's never been a question. Ever. Vort, all the illegal things you mentioned are not specific to religious beliefs. I believe living a homosexual lifestyle is a sin because of my religious beliefs not for any secular reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annewandering Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I think Vort was kidding. Sometimes its hard to tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mamas_Girl Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I am pretty sure that "Do you affiliate or sympathize with any groups that oppose Proposition 8?" is now a standard temple recommend question.I just got my new recommend on the 13th, and I do not recall that being asked. I paid very close attention to the questions, and all I recall was being asked if I affiliate or sympathize with any groups who oppose the church. Not sure of the exact wording, but there was nothing about any proposition in my interview. I know nothing like that was asked because I never heard of the proposition until I read this thread -- I take it from context that it has something to do with gay marriage? BTW, I am a citizen of the U.S.A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I just got my new recommend on the 13th, and I do not recall that being asked. I paid very close attention to the questions, and all I recall was being asked if I affiliate or sympathize with any groups who oppose the church. Not sure of the exact wording, but there was nothing about any proposition in my interview. I know nothing like that was asked because I never heard of the proposition until I read this thread -- I take it from context that it has something to do with gay marriage? BTW, I am a citizen of the U.S.A.*whoosh* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinarihoudai Posted November 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Mamas_girl, Vort was be facetious. I was really asking if that question about sympathizing and affiliating with groups that are against the church (I thought it said that are contrary to the church) includes disagreeing about supporting prop 8 which simply stated that marriage was to between a man and a woman in California. Perhaps my faulty memory of the question is causing an undue concern. . . Annewandering, regarding the illegal things Vort mentioned I have encountered people making similar statements in all seriousness so on that one it was hard to tell if he was joking or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Vort, all the illegal things you mentioned are not specific to religious beliefs.My religion teaches me not to rape or murder, and that I should obey even traffic laws.I believe living a homosexual lifestyle is a sin because of my religious beliefs not for any secular reason.There are very strong secular arguments that the heterosexual relationship between a man and a woman is the very foundation of civilization, and that such nuclear families are the basic relationship unit in a healthy society. Governments are obliged to support and encourage such relationships in order to (in the words of the US constitution) "promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity".In any case, who says that our ethical opinions about society must be based on "secular reasoning"? (And by "who cares", I specifically mean "name someone whose opinion is important to me and who cares.") "Secular reasoning" could well lead to all sorts of bizarre and nonsensical opinions, such as that women who refuse to work outside the home should be taxed heavily to help support the burden they place on the hard-working elements of society, the lazy slackers. I see no possible inducement to believe that "secular reasoning" is superior to religious ethics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kich Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Here's my $0.02 on the matter: Though I believe that homosexuality is a sin, I won't lift a finger to oppose it either. Pushing laws that force our beliefs on others is ignoring God's gift of Free Agency. They need to choose the right path of their own free will, not because the law says they can't do it. Free Agency necessitates the choice to choose either way. As far as I know, the Church doesn't push it's political views upon it's members in such a way. They'll ask you if you've ever engaged in homosexual relations, not whether you support others' rights to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Though I believe that homosexuality is a sin, I won't lift a finger to oppose it either. Pushing laws that force our beliefs on others is ignoring God's gift of Free Agency.Then so is pushing laws that force our beliefs on others regarding rape, murder, and income tax evasion. If what you say is true, then these, too, are an infringement on our precious, God-given gift of Free Agency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kich Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) Then so is pushing laws that force our beliefs on others regarding rape, murder, and income tax evasion. If what you say is true, then these, too, are an infringement on our precious, God-given gift of Free Agency.No need to be facetious. All three of the laws you mentioned are designed to prevent actions which cause tangible harm upon another person or group of persons. Gay marriage is not a victimizing crime, and it is impossible to spin it as such.My seeing two men holding hands or displaying affection for each other doesn't harm me in the least. It won't harm the sanctity of my marraige to my wife or my family either.It's easier for me to avert my eyes than to force people I don't know to live a lifestyle they don't desire. I consider it to be more morally right as well. Edited November 23, 2011 by kich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerome1232 Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 My seeing two men holding hands or displaying affection for each other doesn't harm me in the least. It won't harm the sanctity of my marraige to my wife or my family either.I did not see anything in prop. 8 about attempting to make homosexuality illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kich Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I did not see anything in prop. 8 about attempting to make homosexuality illegal.Agreed, it's about barring them from marriage. However, the only parts of marriage which we see is their outward display of affection, which is what I mentioned.As such, my statement still stands. Since it is not a victimizing crime, and since gay marraige does not infringe upon our rights as hetrosexual religious beings, there is no logical reason to disallow the marriage of a same-sex couple.Put simply, we do not have the right to infringe upon their actions simply because they offend us. We need to teach our children tolerance for differing beliefs, not to strike down what they don't believe in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 No need to be facetious.I am not being facetious. You argued that such laws are evil because they "ignore God's gift of Free Agency." I have simply observed that, if your charge is true (and I believe it is not), then all other laws also infringe on agency.All three of the laws you mentioned are designed to prevent actions which cause tangible harm upon another person or group of persons.Not paying my income taxes causes no harm whatsoever on any other person. My contribution to the tax stream is so minute that it literally would not be missed, and would not change the budget of the state or federal government by a penny.A sexual relationship between two isolated men perhaps does not affect me in any measurable way. Condoned, protected sexual relationships between men and women attack the integrity of the foundation of culture, which is the relationship between the sexes. That you fail to see the harm in a thing does not therefore make the thing harmless.It's easier for me to avert my eyes than to force people I don't know to live a lifestyle they don't desire. I consider it to be more morally right as well.But of course, this is false. No one is forcing anyone to live a certain lifestyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kich Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) But of course, this is false. No one is forcing anyone to live a certain lifestyle.If you are preventing gay couples from enjoying marriage, you are in fact preventing them from living the lifestyle that they choose. You are forcing them into living our notions of marriage.I've had enough transgendered and homosexual friends to know that their open existance doesn't harm us in the least. It's a different lifestyle I don't approve of, but I can't call myself a moral God-abiding citizen if I didn't protect their rights with the same fervor as I would any Tithe-paying Mormon. Edited November 23, 2011 by kich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinarihoudai Posted November 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) Look, I really really do not want this to devolve into another prop 8 debate. The question was about, does having a dissenting view regarding gay marriage disqualify someone from having a temple recommend under the question about sympathizing with groups that are contrary to the church even though the person still has a vibrant testimony of the gospel and sustains church leaders. But it appears that my memory of the question is flawed. Obviously, from the way the responses are going I am simply going to have to take the plunge and ask my Bishop. I'll report back what he says on the matter. edit: when did the thank you buttons go away on this section of the forums? Sadness. NM, they didn't load for some reason and now they are. Weird. Edited November 23, 2011 by iinarihoudai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kich Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Look, I really really do not want this to devolve into another prop 8 debate. The question was about, does having a dissenting view regarding gay marriage disqualify someone from having a temple recommend under the question about sympathizing with groups that are contrary to the church even though the person still has a vibrant testimony of the gospel and sustains church leaders. But it appears that my memory of the question is flawed. Obviously, from the way the responses are going I am simply going to have to take the plunge and ask my Bishop. I'll report back what he says on the matter.edit: when did the thank you buttons go away on this section of the forums? Sadness. NM, they didn't load for some reason and now they are. Weird.Sorry. I didn't mean to help derail this into another Prop 8 discussion. I've said my peace on the subject and I'll refrain from saying more.Basically, I don't think your belief on Prop 8 will matter one way or the other, as long as you are not practicing homosexuality yourself. Having sympathy with groups contrary to the church won't bar you from anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 If you are preventing gay couples from enjoying marriage, you are in fact preventing them from living the lifestyle that they choose. You are forcing them into living our notions of marriage.You can make the same arguments about preventing people from marrying their dogs, or their parents, or their desk chairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Having sympathy with groups contrary to the church won't bar you from anything.Not true. Having sympathy with groups contrary to the Church will keep you from getting a temple recommend. That really is one of the questions asked. No kidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinarihoudai Posted November 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 PS: Not sure when I'll get back to you about this. I need to take it to prayer about talking to the Bishop. Sometimes timing is everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboosh Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 So if you advocate or support groups or movements such as Nazism, you can still get a retain a Temple recommend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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