All things are present with God

[jayanna]

Is this doctrine that the church teaches somewhere like in a manual? I have not found where I can read about this expanding glory?

Thanks

[maiku]

Is this doctrine that the church teaches somewhere like in a manual? I have not found where I can read about this expanding glory?

Thanks

Of the Father, I don't know of any scripture that mentions it but of the Son, yes.

D&C 93:11-13 is where it talks about expanding perfection.

11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the afulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

Elder Talmage explained perfection in Jesus the Christ, to paraphrase, he says something along the lines of I can get perfect grades in primary school but that doesn't compare to being perfect in graduate studies.

[jayanna]

Thanks, I know about the Son, that is why He is the 'son' he was still learning. But I can't find anything on it about the Father.

But thanks anyway, Maiku.

[james12]

Okay, maybe I have to start a new thread, but where is the doctrine that says God is increasing his glory. I can understand the idea of eternal increase, like in a population sense, but how does increasing population change the state of His being? I have seen this on here before, but I don't understand where it has come from.

“What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I [Christ] will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 347)

[Colirio]

If you (meaning anyone, not just 'you' Traveler) understand that God is capable of manipulating space time (whatever that made up concept is) do you think that He could receive the glory that comes from an act before the act is done. For example, has God already received the glory that comes from all the earth bound souls who will some day receive Eternal Life? Or, does it actually have to be brought to pass?

I think there are some laws that are universal and cannot be altered or they stop being laws even if there is mastery within the bounds of the law.

D&C 88:41

D&C 38:2

D&C 130:7

I agree. The universal law requires that the act be accomplished.

However, if all things are before God (past, present, and future) and time really does not exist or at least inhibit such a Being, I suppose the act doesn't need to be done as it already has been accomplished.

This would also account for how the Atonement could apply to beings "before" it was actually accomplished by the Savior. (Granted, it was only applied in part as their was no resurrection.)

Likewise, it also accounts for how anything in the future could be "seen" before it actually occurs. Traveler is attempting to mesh our rather limited views of science with our even more limited view of God.

Science, when properly understood from an eternal perspective, will ultimately serve to help us understand our Father in Heaven.

And I hereafter dub thee "Time Traveler."

Edited December 7, 2011 by Colirio

[Seminarysnoozer]

I agree. The universal law requires that the act be accomplished.

Likewise, it also accounts for how anything in the future could be "seen" before it actually occurs. Traveler is attempting to mesh our rather limited views of science with our even more limited view of God.

The point is, that there is something qualitatively different about "seeing" something in the future versus knowing that something has been 'brought to pass', that is has been realized. The knowledge that something has been done, completed or brought to pass I think is a vital part of what we understand the plan of happiness to be. There is less happiness, in other words, from 'potential or future acts' then from acts accomplished or realized. If that is true, then God experiences the passage of time because that is where His glory lies; 'to bring to pass...'.

When God 'sees' a future act, can He say that 'He knows it has been done' or can He only say that 'He knows it will be done'? I think there is a qualitative difference between the two.

[Traveler]

If you (meaning anyone, not just 'you' Traveler) understand that God is capable of manipulating space time (whatever that made up concept is) do you think that He could receive the glory that comes from an act before the act is done. For example, has God already received the glory that comes from all the earth bound souls who will some day receive Eternal Life? Or, does it actually have to be brought to pass?

I think there are some laws that are universal and cannot be altered or they stop being laws even if there is mastery within the bounds of the law.

It is the essence of the foreknowledge of G-d to pre-ordain individuals to specific callings. For example; the call to Jehovah to the life and mission as Jesus in atoning mankind. This by G-d was not dependent on a belief that it “could” work but by sheer necessity G-d had to know that it would work and not fail.

As an engineer I understand the process very well. We cannot know that something will work until we have “tested” it. Usually we create test situations before we put something into the live arena. Personally – I do not think G-d guesses concerning the future. I believe he knows. As I have already posted – knowing is not outside of scientific possibilities. Surly G-d understands such principles better than us?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is the essence of the foreknowledge of G-d to pre-ordain individuals to specific callings. For example; the call to Jehovah to the life and mission as Jesus in atoning mankind. This by G-d was not dependent on a belief that it “could” work but by sheer necessity G-d had to know that it would work and not fail.

As an engineer I understand the process very well. We cannot know that something will work until we have “tested” it. Usually we create test situations before we put something into the live arena. Personally – I do not think G-d guesses concerning the future. I believe he knows. As I have already posted – knowing is not outside of scientific possibilities. Surly G-d understands such principles better than us?

The Traveler

I think I was postulating more about the differences in value between knowing something will work versus actually making it happen and knowing that it has been done.

[jayanna]

IF you read past Elder Maxwell's explanation and read the Prophet Joseph Smith's and Elder Talmage's, you can tell they each had a clear understanding that God has a sure knowledge, and has not placed our eternal developement on a gamble. The entire section is excellent.

This is the current Pearl of Great Price manual, so yes, the Church teaches it.

I will start another thread on another part of that particular section of the manual that I find very illuminating.

[Seminarysnoozer]

IF you read past Elder Maxwell's explanation and read the Prophet Joseph Smith's and Elder Talmage's, you can tell they each had a clear understanding that God has a sure knowledge, and has not placed our eternal developement on a gamble. The entire section is excellent.

This is the current Pearl of Great Price manual, so yes, the Church teaches it.

I will start another thread on another part of that particular section of the manual that I find very illuminating.

Even a sure knowledge is not the knowledge that something has happened. One can have a sure knowledge of a future event, "I know it will happen". But if a being experiences the passage of time the person cannot say "I know it has happened" before it is brought to pass. So, there potentially is value in actually bringing something to pass, greater than a sure knowledge that it will happen brings. I think God lives by certain laws pertaining to justice and mercy and integrity that leads to value in actually carrying things out no matter how well known the future is.

At what point is the glory for a particular event received, at the moment it is planned for a future time or at the moment one can say "It is done, it has been brought to pass"? I think there is some glory in planning an event, sure, but the fullness of the glory of that event, I don't think, can occur until one can say, "it is brought to pass".

[jayanna]

Snoozer, I think I am understanding your perspective a little bit better.

I really think that God lives outside of time. This lesson explains it, and it explains some experiences that I had concerning it. The "brought to pass" is necessary for us, we need time to develop while He does not need time. Alma 8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men. Alma 40:8 

7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord. Doctrine and Covenants 130:4-7 

Everything is. He has made promises to us about the future. Our covenants with Him depend on Him keeping them, how can He know that He will keep them unless He already has?

Words have such powere there. When He speaks, it has already happened, all He has to do is speak it and there it is. All He has to do to see something is to think He wants to see it, and He sees it.

When we get to eternity, there will be no time. That is why our sealings are for time and all eternity. Eternity exists without time.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Snoozer, I think I am understanding your perspective a little bit better.

I really think that God lives outside of time. This lesson explains it, and it explains some experiences that I had concerning it. The "brought to pass" is necessary for us, we need time to develop while He does not need time. Alma 8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men. Alma 40:8*

7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord. Doctrine and Covenants 130:4-7*

Everything is. He has made promises to us about the future. Our covenants with Him depend on Him keeping them, how can He know that He will keep them unless He already has?

Words have such powere there. When He speaks, it has already happened, all He has to do is speak it and there it is. All He has to do to see something is to think He wants to see it, and He sees it.

When we get to eternity, there will be no time. That is why our sealings are for time and all eternity. Eternity exists without time.

I think there is a bit of mixing of terminology but that is only because it is already a difficult concept to understand. I think "time" within the scriptures you used suggest an end to a period of time, which is true. But that does not exclude the possibility of the passage of time in the eternities. There can be a passage of time without end.

On top of that we are mixing what God "sees", which is also different than the passage of time. Just because God sees everything 'as if it is one day' does not mean that time does not pass. I think I am putting more emphasis on what we understand God's work and glory to be, which is to "bring to pass" the immortality and eternal life of man. Otherwise, it would read, God's work and glory is having brought to pass the immortality and Eternal life of man. If we say that there is no passage of time, then there is nothing that is "brought to pass". If there is nothing brought to pass then what is God's work and glory? There would be no work or glory because it is already done, to Him. We also, could not participate in God's glory if everything is already brought to pass. That sounds like a miserable idea to me.

His works are endless and eternal because He can keep bringing things to pass. If there is no bringing to pass anything because it is all done to Him, then His work is complete. There would be nothing to Him that is not complete. In a timeless God, tell me what more work could He possibly do that would bring Him any glory or be counted as work for that matter?

[jayanna]

I clearly says, "All is one day with God," not that He sees it in one day. There is no time there. You can see anything you want. All those things you missed and wished you were there for, you can see them! Like changing channels on the tv, only with your mind. It's cool and kinda scary all at once. Talk about an information highway! You are walking around, thinking where to next, and He says "Look," and you can't help but look down and whoa you are standing in the middle of thin air, or at least it looks to much like standing in thin air that you think you are actually there. You look down on the earth and you can see something happening. He wants you to see something and there it is, I wish I could show you, I wish I could take you there it's amazing. 3D has nothing on it. It's gonna be great Snoozer!

His work doesn't stop. It is ongoing, constantly. He speaks, it happens. It is not just the words, but also the intention behind them. Constant, it's beautiful. How tiny does Satan seem now? All he has is this tiny little planet where he bugs people. He knows what's coming for Him, and he is so mad about it all he can do is take as many of us as he can with him.

Eternity doesn't go in a line, it goes in a circle, around and around.

Edited December 13, 2011 by jayanna

[Seminarysnoozer]

I clearly says, "All is one day with God," not that He sees it in one day. There is no time there. You can see anything you want. All those things you missed and wished you were there for, you can see them! Like changing channels on the tv, only with your mind. It's cool and kinda scary all at once. Talk about an information highway! You are walking around, thinking where to next, and He says "Look," and you can't help but look down and whoa you are standing in the middle of thin air, or at least it looks to much like standing in thin air that you think you are actually there. You look down on the earth and you can see something happening. He wants you to see something and there it is, I wish I could show you, I wish I could take you there it's amazing. 3D has nothing on it. It's gonna be great Snoozer!

His work doesn't stop. It is ongoing, constantly. He speaks, it happens. It is not just the words, but also the intention behind them. Constant, it's beautiful. How tiny does Satan seem now? All he has is this tiny little planet where he bugs people. He knows what's coming for Him, and he is so mad about it all he can do is take as many of us as he can with him.

Eternity doesn't go in a line, it goes in a circle, around and around.

I agree it will be amazing and mostly, now, is beyond comprehension. Thanks.

The word "ongoing" requires the passage of time. "It happens" requires the passage of time. To have "intention" requires the passage of time, as intention implies that it hasn't yet been done. To create things spiritually before physically requires the passage of time. To have emotional expression requires the passage of time as an emotional expression is based in the change of feeling from one moment to the next. So, being "mad" requires the passage of time. We can hardly even speak about God without placing Him in the context of the passage of time.

I think the idea that for God all is as one day, fits better with the idea that there is no end or there is no starting over again. Days allow for a new day, to start over again. Life as a circle really suggests that life is a cycle, more than it means that we start at square one again, in my opinion. The formula for bringing about the immortality and eternal life of man happens over and over again like starting a new load of laundry. But it doesn't mean the same set of laundry is washed over and over again (in my opinion).

[Magen_Avot]

Well, this has been an interesting thread. Time stuff gives me a headache when I try to grasp it. I get it when discussed on Sci-Fi shows like Star-Gate SG1 (what do you mean it's not doctrine! ), but loose it when the scientist (sorry, can't remember his name) in a wheelchair discusses it on the Science channel .

I do understand from the PoGP the earth has it's reckoning of time and it's different than God's reckoning. In or out of time? Good discussion, but who knows but they who dwell not on the earth? Good to keep an open and active mind though.

Vort I concur with you and I liked Dravin's comment too,... and there were others too. However, the question of doctine or not shouldn't keep a good discussion going or using talks, manuals or even other peoples books to augment the topic of discussion. I think that's one way we sometimes expand our minds and continue to learn. So,... thanks Jayanna.

[jayanna]

Thanks, everybody who particpated in my thread, I don't start one very often. I live in a low LDS count area and love having someone to talk about the gospel with!

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thanks, everybody who particpated in my thread, I don't start one very often. I live in a low LDS count area and love having someone to talk about the gospel with!

I am glad you like to bring up such topics.

I think the trap that a lot of people fall into when discussing these things is that they try to apply the little bit of physical science knowledge we have obtained to the way God's realm works such as time-space concepts. We really do not know how the spiritual realm works, the fine material that exists there and the "physics" of such a place. Even if something is true in the physical science laws, there may be another whole set of physics that is not seen by us here to really comment on how that system works.

This is why statements of "to bring to pass... " trumps any physics based argument about how God sees time. Even then, all of this is speculation ... so I'll leave it at that. And say, put the most weight in the scriptures description of these things.

Edited December 25, 2011 by john doe
Please don't turn this into a rant about speculation

[onefour1]

The problem with future events already transpiring with God is that it violates the concept of free will. If every moment of our future life has already occured, then all our future choices are already set. If all our choices all already predetermined, then do we really have free will to choose?

I believe that God does know the future, but I don't believe that it has already transpired. If it has already transpired, then I don't believe that we have free will to choose and all our thoughts, words, and actions have already been played out. If we don't have free will to choose, and our path way in life is predetermined, then we should not be judged by God according to something already set that we really had no choice in. We are not free to choose in this scenario but are only acting out a play that has already been written(finished).

Also if events transpire with God, then things that he has already accomplished are in the past. The creation of the earth is a past event, at least to us. Is the creation of the earth still going on with God? Are we still being born with God, is everything in the past still happening and never passing with God? This to me is incomprehensible. If the meaning of "all things are present with God" is that no events pass but are constantly happening in every moment, then how could God know when anything is finished? I don't think the meaning of the phrase "All things are present with God" refers to a timelessness. I believe that because God is omnipresent, that all things are present before him. He is in all and through all things. Thus everything is present before God. Or in other words, All things are in the presence of God due to his omnipresence.

Time exists because there is change. Our memories remember prior states of existence before some change. Our reckoning of time is a creation of God of our solar system and a creation of man when dividing days into hours, minutes, and seconds, etc. God created our sun and set in motion our earth to rotate and revolve around the sun. From this, years, months, days, etc. were created. When something changes in our existence, we can think back and remember a previous state. For example, I was at work before and now I am at home. I remember and therefore I perceive a past. But does this mean that the past exists now? I don't think so. I think that the only thing that really exists is the present. The current now is the future of the past. If the past still exists, then we have already predetermined the existing past. I don't think the past exists. It is a past state of the now and no longer exists because of change. I also don't believe the future exists because the change has not yet happened. If the future has already occurred, then our choices, as mentioned above, are predetermined and we only have the illusion of free will but in reality our actions are predetermined. In my opinion the past and the future do not exist but only the NOW. God lives in the NOW and has other means of knowing the future.

If God's days are 1000 of our years, watching what transpires over our entire lives is usually less than a tenth of a day of his reckoning. This perspective would also make things seem only but about 2 or 3 hours of our time to view our entire lives. This would make it seem very much a present event to him.

Edited December 25, 2011 by onefour1

[james12]

The problem with future events already transpiring with God is that it violates the concept of free will. If every moment of our future life has already occurred, then all our future choices are already set. If all our choices all already predetermined, then do we really have free will to choose?

I believe that God does know the future, but I don't believe that it has already transpired. If it has already transpired, then I don't believe that we have free will to choose and all our thoughts, words, and actions have already been played out. If we don't have free will to choose, and our path way in life is predetermined, then we should not be judged by God according to something already set that we really had no choice in. We are not free to choose in this scenario but are only acting out a play that has already been written(finished).

Even if events future to us are present with God I don't see that this fact alone violates our free will. He may see our future but we do not. Since he does know, the key issue for me is the level of God's intervention. If he chooses not to intervene then we are still free to determine our course. This is the case because events are still future to us. What's amazing to me is that an all knowing God, who indeed sees our future and our past, believes agency is so vital that in many cases he will not interfere, even if what we choose to do causes us harm.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Even if events future to us are present with God I don't see that this fact alone violates our free will. He may see our future but we do not. Since he does know, the key issue for me is the level of God's intervention. If he chooses not to intervene then we are still free to determine our course. This is the case because events are still future to us. What's amazing to me is that an all knowing God, who indeed sees our future and our past, believes agency is so vital that in many cases he will not interfere, even if what we choose to do causes us harm.

I think if you carefully look at what onefour1 was saying, there is a difference between recognizing events that have "transpired" versus seeing the future event that hasn't yet happened. It is difficult to talk about concepts that we don't know much about or how they could possibly work but I think what is being suggested is a qualitative difference between seeing something in the future versus knowing that something has already happened. onefour1's comments were about free will but I think it also applies to the process of "bringing to pass" anything. There seems to be a value in the fulfilling of an act beyond just knowing it will happen.

When something has actually happened, whether it is seen or not previously, there is a change in perception of that event, knowing that something has been accomplished, that it has been "brought to pass" or "transpired". If seeing into the future is synonymous with "bringing to pass" then there is no value obtained at the moment it is completed or the moment it becomes an event "transpired". In the scriptures, it seems, there is a separation of these things as God's work and glory are described as "to bring to pass ...".

Edited December 25, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[james12]

I think if you carefully look at what onefour1 was saying, there is a difference between recognizing events that have "transpired" versus seeing the future event that hasn't yet happened. It is difficult to talk about concepts that we don't know much about or how they could possibly work but I think what is being suggested is a qualitative difference between seeing something in the future versus knowing that something has already happened. onefour1's comments were about free will but I think it also applies to the process of "bringing to pass" anything. There seems to be a value in the fulfilling of an act beyond just knowing it will happen.

When something has actually happened, whether it is seen or not previously, there is a change in perception of that event, knowing that something has been accomplished, that it has been "brought to pass" or "transpired". If seeing into the future is synonymous with "bringing to pass" then there is no value obtained at the moment it is completed or the moment it becomes an event "transpired". In the scriptures, it seems, there is a separation of these things as God's work and glory are described as "to bring to pass ...".

I agree there is value in the process of acting or bringing something to pass in our own lives. My point is that regardless of how God sees the future (as already occurred or as a known future event) we still have free will. We still have agency because God will not act to take that from us.

[onefour1]

If God has experienced our lives as an actual event and not as just some knowledge, for what reason is there to have our lives play out all over again? Is the life God has forseen as an actual event our real life or is the one we are now experiencing our real life? To say this in greater detail, if all the events of our lives have actually transpired, then is it safe to say that these events are going on a second time? Are all the events that will transpire on January 15th 2012 already accomplished by myself but I don't know anything of it because I am behind the events that have transpired and am now at Dec 25, 2011. Is there some sort of dual existence going on? If the events of our lives have already transpired, then do we have any other choice in this delayed existence than those choices that we chose in the first existence? Are we not just playing out a prewritten script in our current existence? With such knowledge that our lives have already been lived, does this not take the meaning out of our current lives? In the second existence we are trapped in the actions, words, and thoughts of our first existence. I don't see a necessity of playing out the second round. Why are we conscience in this present existence and not conscience in the existence God has already seen played out? Are we already resurrected but don’t know it yet? Is this the way it really is?

The idea that in time all things are ever present with God suggests that nothing is ever completed. If things are ever present with God then nothing goes into the past. With such a concept, I am still being born, the earth is still being created, Jesus is still on the earth, Jesus is still in the pre-mortal existence, Adam and Eve are still in the garden, etc., etc. If these things have transpired, then they are not present but past events. However, if God is in all and through all things, then he is everywhere present. Thus all things are present with the Lord. Now if things transpire with God, then things go into the past. But can they constantly be in the present also? I don't think so. God speaks of when he did this or did that in scripture. It is a past event that transpired.

James12, can you elaborate on whether you think events have transpired already for God to know them, or whether you believe that God has a way of knowing without the event transpiring? Can you explain why you believe this and why you don’t see it as a violation of free will? I am interested in your view point.

I agree with seminarysnoozer that if God’s work is to “Bring to Pass” the immortality and eternal life of man, that this presupposes that some men’s lives have not yet passed into immortality and eternal life, and that not all has transpired already before God. If this is the case and if God needs to have something already transpire before he can know it, then this would imply that God does not know all things. I personally don’t feel that God has to have everything actually transpire before him to know the future. I think there are other means of knowing it. I just don’t understand them to a full extent.

With regard to free will, it appears to me that if one’s life is already played out, then if he is doing it a second time to be exactly as the first, then there is no choice than to choose what was chosen the first time. Thus if the future already exists in reality, we have no other choice than to make the same decision as that future that has already been played out. This comes across as a weird form of determinism to me.

Edited December 26, 2011 by onefour1

[Dravin]

Is the life God has forseen as an actual event our real life or is the one we are now experiencing our real life?

Well one perspective is they'd be the same, of course this is essentially taking us down a the rabbit hole of time paradoxes. The whole I kill my grandfather thing. Which answer is correct depends on what entirely hypothetical constraints you put upon the system.

[james12]

If God has experienced our lives as an actual event and not as just some knowledge, for what reason is there to have our lives play out all over again? Is the life God has forseen as an actual event our real life or is the one we are now experiencing our real life? To say this in greater detail, if all the events of our lives have actually transpired, then is it safe to say that these events are going on a second time? Are all the events that will transpire on January 15th 2012 already accomplished by myself but I don't know anything of it because I am behind the events that have transpired and am now at Dec 25, 2011. Is there some sort of dual existence going on? If the events of our lives have already transpired, then do we have any other choice in this delayed existence than those choices that we chose in the first existence? Are we not just playing out a prewritten script in our current existence? With such knowledge that our lives have already been lived, does this not take the meaning out of our current lives? In the second existence we are trapped in the actions, words, and thoughts of our first existence. I don't see a necessity of playing out the second round. Why are we conscience in this present existence and not conscience in the existence God has already seen played out? Are we already resurrected but don’t know it yet? Is this the way it really is?

The idea that in time all things are ever present with God suggests that nothing is ever completed. If things are ever present with God then nothing goes into the past. With such a concept, I am still being born, the earth is still being created, Jesus is still on the earth, Jesus is still in the pre-mortal existence, Adam and Eve are still in the garden, etc., etc. If these things have transpired, then they are not present but past events. However, if God is in all and through all things, then he is everywhere present. Thus all things are present with the Lord. Now if things transpire with God, then things go into the past. But can they constantly be in the present also? I don't think so. God speaks of when he did this or did that in scripture. It is a past event that transpired.

James12, can you elaborate on whether you think events have transpired already for God to know them, or whether you believe that God has a way of knowing without the event transpiring? Can you explain why you believe this and why you don’t see it as a violation of free will? I am interested in your view point.

I agree with seminarysnoozer that if God’s work is to “Bring to Pass” the immortality and eternal life of man, that this presupposes that some men’s lives have not yet passed into immortality and eternal life, and that not all has transpired already before God. If this is the case and if God needs to have something already transpire before he can know it, then this would imply that God does not know all things. I personally don’t feel that God has to have everything actually transpire before him to know the future. I think there are other means of knowing it. I just don’t understand them to a full extent.

With regard to free will, it appears to me that if one’s life is already played out, then if he is doing it a second time to be exactly as the first, then there is no choice than to choose what was chosen the first time. Thus if the future already exists in reality, we have no other choice than to make the same decision as that future that has already been played out. This comes across as a weird form of determinism to me.

Wow, risky business this thread. Now I'm caught in a time paradox and perhaps a predestination paradox! I feel like I'm reading How to Live Safely In a Science Fictional Universe again.

In short, I do not impose our unique time constraints on God. We experience time in a linear fashion. To us events are past, present and future. We have agency and God allows us the freedom to choose. Neither his foreknowledge nor his potential ability to see our experiences as present prevent us from choosing. I think I'll avoid speculating on how God's time relates to ours.

[mordorbund]

I posted this in another thread when I first joined the site, and you can feel free to read the several pages on it to get some of my thoughts on how God's omniscience (one eternal now) can exist and our laws of time not be violated. In simple terms, imagine your standard two-axis graph, but instead of x and y measuring two dimensions of distance (width and height) or even distance and time, imagine the axis as two dimensions of time (God-time and earth-time).

I believe that God exists outside this universe and I also believe that he exists outside of time.

Let's play god for a moment. Let's say that you are god of the stick people (these are the stick people drawn on a piece of paper that are living. We will even grant them free will so there may be some "suprises"). Now, these stick people exist as animations, a series of still frames that you can fully see. You know the end from the beginning. Also, due to your god status, if you change something in one frame, all subsequent frames are updated. Finally, let's say that it is your work and glory to have the stick people finish an obstacle course with two walls. Oh, and we'll also say that in the rules of godhood over stick people you lose your glory if you intervene the same way twice, and you can't tear down any walls (this covers the "sure, god can, but he binds himself to his own laws" argument).

So you're looking at all the still frames, and you see where a stick person comes to the first wall. In fact, in subsequent ones, you see that there's a pile up at this wall. So you go back to an earlier frame and you draw a doorway in the wall. Now you move forward to where the first stick person comes to the wall (that now has a doorway) and you see it is followed by that person walking right through it. You check the later ones and you see there never was a pile up because everyone is moving through this wall smoothly.

Now you look at the still frame where a stick person comes to the second wall. He arrives there with a friend. You think for a minute and draw a rope going over the wall (in an earlier frame). For the stick people, this rope has always been observably there. Now when you look at subsequent frames, you see that the first person climbs the rope and makes it over. The second one decides this wall is too tough and sits down and gives up.

Do you see what just happened? Because you're working outside of the stick people's time, you can freely move backwards and forwards. Also, you are free to optimize it as much as possible (if the second person gave up because he didn't have strong enough muscles, maybe you draw smaller walls for him to climb to build his muscles). All this happens outside the stick people's frame of reference. It's not until you are finally finished and the animation is run that the stick people actually experience anything. But in this scenario, you can actually say you achieved your work and glory before any animation is run. You know how many stick people will complete the course and if you have a boss, you could be promoted based on the still frames alone.

Now when (according to stick people time) do you weep that some of them didn't complete the course? All the time. There is never a stick person time when you weren't weeping, and there was never a time when you weren't celebrating those that did complete it. When (according to stick person time) did a stick person observe you weeping? When you interacted directly with one of them and they recorded it.

Now this is just an illustration and not meant to describe the reality of how God works. I just want to show that there are conceivable ways for God to work outside of time, and so we should be careful with assumptions about God taking up residence in our natural laws.