Are we commanded to attend church meetings?

[applepansy]

Amplifiers would be a good idea. Maybe I'm ignorant here, but aren't they basically hearing aids? My assumption is that someone with hearing loss would need hearing aids, so amplifiers would be unnecessary. (If she couldn't afford them, maybe the ward could help).

I've seen some very healthy, active 83 year olds. I wouldn't assume that 83 means you can't get around reasonably well. I'll grant you that at 83 a bishop is going to be pretty understanding if someone reports that it is too difficult to get out, but from what I have seen, most will encourage those who are reasonably able to come out for the sacrament.

The amplifiers are tuned into the sound system at the church. They are not like a hearing aide that fits in your ear. They are more like a small transistor radio (yes, from back in the 60s LOL) which they plug their earpiece into. These amplifiers are wonderful for those who need them.

[RMGuy]

I like the statement that we told that the saints "And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls. And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus."

I think we need to remember that this is to uplifting and Spiritually nourishing. We also need to remember that the family is the basic unit of the church. I have in the past skipped local, stake, or regional meetings because it was important for our fundamental unit to meet instead. Recently, due to work and church callings I had not seen my family all week. I skipped Stake Priesthood meeting in order to stay home with them. What was the stake meeting on? Being a good husband and father. Can you imagine having not spent time with your family in a week and then listening to that? So instead of listening to how to do it better, I did it.

Sometimes we have meetings in the church because there is important information to convey, and sometimes we have meetings in the church because the handbook says we are supposed to have a meeting. I find the first type very beneficial, I find the second at best a waste of time and a bore, and in somecases detrimental.

Your experience may differ.

-RM

[Vort]

Sometimes we have meetings in the church because there is important information to convey, and sometimes we have meetings in the church because the handbook says we are supposed to have a meeting. I find the first type very beneficial, I find the second at best a waste of time and a bore, and in somecases detrimental.

Your experience may differ.

Mine certainly does. I have been meeting for years in ward council and various presidency and group leadership meetings as well as Priesthood meetings -- regular, early morning, stake, and General Conference -- and special Priesthood leadership meetings. Occasionally, it has seemed like all I do is go to meetings.

In all that, and over a period extending for pretty much my entire life, certainly for the last fifteen or twenty years, I cannot recall a single time we ever met for the purpose of holding a meeting. Not once. The meetings may not always have been as short and to-the-point as I might have liked, and I've experienced meetings that tried to cover too much ground and as a result were less effective than they might have been. But in my experience, I do not ever recall attending a meeting that was held "because the handbook says we are supposed to have a meeting."

Based on my experience, I doubt that happens much, if ever.

[classylady]

In our ward there are several members who are unable to attend their meetings and the Sacrament is brought to them in their home. One particular sister happened to have a job working from her home as an airlines reservations agent. I don't know the whole story about her, for she also had some health issues, but not major health issues. When her schedule allowed she did attend church. But the Sacrament was brought into her home when she couldn't attend due to her work schedule.

When I was working, because I had low seniority, I very seldom was able to get a shift that had Sundays off. For a number of years I wasn't able to attend my Sunday meetings. If I could I would attend a different ward that had Sacrament meeting that didn't conflict with my schedule. I suppose quite a few people in our ward probably thought I was inactive. I wasn't. I just couldn't attend the meetings. I still qualified for a temple recommend, even though I could only attend sporadically over the years--depending on my work schedule.

[RMGuy]

Vort,

I would guess that most sacrament meetings are held more because we are supposed to have a meeting and then the bishopric finds speakers to fill the time rather than the bishopric feels inspired to address a specific issue and then organizes a meeting to meet that need.

If the latter were the case then perhaps sacrement meeting would go for 2-3 hours some weeks or only have the sacrement and no instruction another....based on the needs of the unit.

Perhaps it is important here to distinguish that I'm not saying that there isn't valuable, worthwhile, or spiritually uplifting information conveyed during those meetings. I like you have had the experience many times where perhaps I wasn't excited to attend a meeting, but went anyway and found it of great benefit. I am saying that many times we have meetings because we are supposed to, it is tradition, or the expectation than out of a sincere desire to worship. I wish that wasn't the case.

With that being said, I'm off to my stake meetings :-) Wish you all a great evening.

-RM

[Vort]

I would guess that most sacrament meetings are held more because we are supposed to have a meeting and then the bishopric finds speakers to fill the time rather than the bishopric feels inspired to address a specific issue and then organizes a meeting to meet that need.

Sacrament meetings are held because we are commanded to do so by the Lord. The vast majority of sacrament meetings I have attended have been a great blessing to me. The idea that they are a waste of my time is, in my mind, absurd; I could hardly have a better use of my time on Sunday than to meet with my fellow Saints in the worship of our God.

If the latter were the case then perhaps sacrement meeting would go for 2-3 hours some weeks or only have the sacrement and no instruction another....based on the needs of the unit.

So are you saying that you believe it is not possible for a standardized program to fill the needs of a unit?

Perhaps it is important here to distinguish that I'm not saying that there isn't valuable, worthwhile, or spiritually uplifting information conveyed during those meetings.

Perhaps I mistook your meaning when you wrote:

Sometimes we have meetings in the church because there is important information to convey, and sometimes we have meetings in the church because the handbook says we are supposed to have a meeting. I find the first type very beneficial, I find the second at best a waste of time and a bore, and in somecases detrimental.

If the meeting is "at best a waste of time and a bore, and in some cases detrimental", I don't quite understand how you think there might be "valuable, worthwhile, or spiritually uplifting information conveyed". Doesn't the latter case nullify the former? Or do you mean that you find some meetings that convey valuable, worthwhile, or spiritually uplifting information to be nevertheless a waste of time and a bore, or even detrimental?

I am saying that many times we have meetings because we are supposed to, it is tradition, or the expectation than out of a sincere desire to worship. I wish that wasn't the case.

I believe it is not. I think we meet because we're commanded to and because we hope (sometimes against hope) that the meeting will be valuable for those attending, even if it's just a Young Men's meeting for a bunch of teenagers who would rather be home playing Halo.

With that being said, I'm off to my stake meetings :-) Wish you all a great evening.

Likewise. Hope your meeting was fulfilling, and not merely another boring waste of time done out of tradition or expectation...

[Justice]

I believe God is just and merciful at the same time. When He gives a commandment, not only does He judge you by whether you keep His commandment, but He also judges by your individual ability, or lack thereof, to do so.

But, make no mistake about it, when God gives a commandment, He expects obedience (to the best of our effort).

[Carl62]

Generally whats done where i live is if someone has a lot of difficulty in going to church we send out the priesthood to do a sacrament service for them instead, which usually consists of opening and closing prayers, blessing and giving the bread and water, and sharing a short message and a hymn.

Oh she has no difficulty in getting to church. She's a very active, intelligent 83 year old. Can drive herself, do her taxes, carry on intelligent conversations, again very active. It's just that she can't hear so well and that's where I thought I'd be able to get the help from some of the leadership in the ward for her problem but so far, nada. So since she can't hear the speakers, she chooses to stay at home and read the Ensign or just simply relax.

[sister_in_faith]

Vort, I think you are lucky that you haven't had to sit thru any boring meetings!!! RM, I understand where you are coming from. I have been thru some meetings that I attended out of a sense of duty and walked out going, that is an hour and a half of my life I will never get back. Of course there are always 'bright spots' in meetings, but I remember when I was at the singles ward and we had 'family home evening', I would leave my 'family' to go to it, and it was frustrating when you ended up just sitting in a group eating ice cream sandwiches and not really doing anything. I would then hurry home to spend the rest of the evening with my boyfriend. I finally stopped going. Munch n Mingle was also a waste of time, but I always got a lot of flack for not attending.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Mine certainly does. I have been meeting for years in ward council and various presidency and group leadership meetings as well as Priesthood meetings -- regular, early morning, stake, and General Conference -- and special Priesthood leadership meetings. Occasionally, it has seemed like all I do is go to meetings.

In all that, and over a period extending for pretty much my entire life, certainly for the last fifteen or twenty years, I cannot recall a single time we ever met for the purpose of holding a meeting. Not once. The meetings may not always have been as short and to-the-point as I might have liked, and I've experienced meetings that tried to cover too much ground and as a result were less effective than they might have been. But in my experience, I do not ever recall attending a meeting that was held "because the handbook says we are supposed to have a meeting."

Based on my experience, I doubt that happens much, if ever.

My experience has differed. Unfortunately, I've been to a lot of meetings which apparently, were not based on a needs analysis. They tended to repeat a lot of the same things over and over again, and I leave wondering why I went.

I tend to be selective now about which meetings I attend. I always attend on Sunday and attend only those meetings which don't interfere with the other priorities I have established which may be higher in the totem pole given my life's circumstances.

I have had to do this, as I've had uber-committed periods when I have burnt myself out, and had very terrible consequences for me both personally, and in my work, and in my family.

The other thing that gets me is that I present and teach and speak for a living. I have delved into the journals and research and everything in my work points to learning (a change in behavior) occuring best in environments where people are engaged. Also, two-way interaction tends to produce higher levels of engagement and learning than one-way communication that we often experience in our Church meetings. With learning defined as a "change in behavior", I think this melds well with the concept of repentance.

So, in that respect, I think there is significant improvement in the way we structure our meetings that focus only on one-way communication.

i also did a poll here at StayLDS about people's engagement in Sacrament meeting, and found that 40% of the respondents were not as engaged as I think we would like to see. Many indicated they engage during the sacrament, but find they zone out during the meeting. As it stands, to keep my kids from hating on Sacrament meeting, I leave with my son when 20 minutes are remaining, as this is the point he gets antsy. We have a meaningful father and son lesson on something gospel or life-related. As he's been getting older, the time gets shorter and shorter out of the meeting, but frankly, my kids really dislike sitting in Sacrament meeting because it's an adult meeting, not a kids meeting.

Edited December 9, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Guest]

We shouldn't make kids do anything they don't like, for sure.

Kids can be taught to sit quietly and color or look at pictures or otherwise behave through Sacrament meeting. As they reach 8 and older, they can be taught to try and listen for things they can take from the meeting. I think children will generally meet what is expected of them. We don't make going out fun for them. We make them sit quietly restrained on our laps in the foyer until they're ready to go back and do their quiet activities, which are way more interesting. By the time they're about 3, they behave really well through most meetings. But then, we are pretty strict parents (and also frequently get complimented on how pleasant, happy, and well-behaved our children are).

[Vort]

We shouldn't make kids do anything they don't like, for sure.

Kids can be taught to sit quietly and color or look at pictures or otherwise behave through Sacrament meeting. As they reach 8 and older, they can be taught to try and listen for things they can take from the meeting. I think children will generally meet what is expected of them. We don't make going out fun for them. We make them sit quietly restrained on our laps in the foyer until they're ready to go back and do their quiet activities, which are way more interesting. By the time they're about 3, they behave really well through most meetings. But then, we are pretty strict parents (and also frequently get complimented on how pleasant, happy, and well-behaved our children are).

Agreed. My youngest is now five, and he sits through all of sacrament meeting with only occasional fidgetiness. It was pretty much the same with his four siblings. You simply set the expectation: During the administration of the sacrament, we do not talk, read, or play; during the rest of sacrament meeting, we sit quietly and listen to the speakers, or for those too young to do so, read or play quietly. If you have to go pee, hold it. (Doesn't really work that well for the under-five set, but you simply take them pee before the meeting starts.) It's barely over an hour start to finish, so it really is not that big a deal.

But the key is starting young and setting the standard. In a few cases, it seems that some parents do not want to pay much attention themselves, often carrying on whispered conversations, reading, drawing pictures, or even leaving the meeting. In such cases, the children can hardly be expected to act any other way. But such cases are the exception to the rule in my ward, for the most part.

[Guest]

This thread has made me a little indignant at the idea that lay ministry should be expected to be perfectly inspired, and entertaining, and punctual, and efficient, and sensitive to everyone's thoughts and needs, and and and. . . We're talking about people taking unpaid time out of their own lives with their own problems and issues, just trying to serve and do the best they can.

Then I realized (or was told unmistakably, rather) that I've been doing the same thing in regards to Relief Society. There is one teacher who I have issues with, because she talks about herself (positively) way too much, and talks about her husband (negatively) way too much, and uses the manual and the scriptures way too little, and leans on Mormon culture kinds of Faith Promoting Rumors and Misguided Analogies too much. I could go on. Basically I've felt the last couple of times like she's wasting my precious time and robbing me of the opportunity to learn and feel the Spirit while someone else tends to my kids.

But whose responsibility is that? Because if I try, I can often find at least one thing to learn from in her lessons. Often I find other things in the comments. Invariably I will at least get to thinking about the subject and where I stand. I do have to try, though. So is it her responsibility, or the Sacrament meeting speakers' responsibility, or my Bishop's responsibility to see that I'm engaged and learning something? Or is it mine?

[classylady]

I remember thinking, "Why can't those parents discipline their children so they'll behave" while in Sacrament meeting. My own children were always fairly well behaved during church. Now, we have a grandson that we take to church every Sunday. For the life of me, I could not get him to sit still, color, look at a book, etc. to help keep him in control during the meetings. He was often a struggle in Primary also. Our inspired Bishop had a sister called to be his "helper" in Primary. That was her calling--to be with my grandson during Primary. She was wonderful, and even several years after her release my grandson still adores her. My grandson has since been diagnosed with Asperger's. So, for all those years that I "patted myself on the back" for my well behaved children, and then my embarrassment with my grandson's behavior, I've learned a great lesson: all children are unique, and most parents are doing the best they can with the limited knowledge and experience they may have.

[Guest mormonmusic]

This thread has made me a little indignant at the idea that lay ministry should be expected to be perfectly inspired, and entertaining, and punctual, and efficient, and sensitive to everyone's thoughts and needs, and and and. . . We're talking about people taking unpaid time out of their own lives with their own problems and issues, just trying to serve and do the best they can.

What makes me indignant is that if we're going to go the "lay ministry route" then we need to put the systems in place to "do all we can" to help them provide solid experiences for the members. Some can deal with it be leveling the spirituality of Ghandi on ths situation, but I have found this hard to sustain after 27 years in the Church. And further, so many members are different levels in the Church -- not all have the spiritual fortitude to be there for the teacher in a service-oriented way when as Eowyn says, they are struggling with their own spiritual issues.

We used to have a teacher improvement coordinator, which I thought was a good position. I held it for a couple years. Beyond sporadic offerings of the Teacher Improvement Course, I don't see much being done to improve the quality of gospel teaching as a whole.

When I visted about 200 families as a HPGL, I would often hear a significant subset of the less active indicate "boring meetings" as a reason they didn't want to go to Church. And this has been a theme for many youth who are still gaining testimonies.

[RMGuy]

But whose responsibility is that? Because if I try, I can often find at least one thing to learn from in her lessons. Often I find other things in the comments. Invariably I will at least get to thinking about the subject and where I stand. I do have to try, though. So is it her responsibility, or the Sacrament meeting speakers' responsibility, or my Bishop's responsibility to see that I'm engaged and learning something? Or is it mine?

Eowyn,

Excellent post. I couldn't agree more. My experience is that for me personally there are times I have learned, felt more Spiritually in tune, connected to God, call it what you will on the top of a mountain than I have in a meeting, being talked at. I recognize that this isn't the case for everyone. Being pulled away from family (that is supposed to be our number one priority) to attend another meeting were we revisit the same material we talked about last month, without getting any closer to a resolution can sometimes frustrate me. Sitting in ward council talking about families in the ward that have needs, only to see those needs never met lead me to believe we would be better off NOT in ward council but actually out serving than sitting around talking about serving.

I understand your point, and I agree. It is up to us, our personal responsibility to make sure that we are engaged in building the kingdom. It is our responsibility to make sure that we are spiritually fed, it is incumbent upon each of us to make sure that we are connected to Father. And for me, that means sometimes it is better that I am not in the meeting, but rather doing.

-RM

[Guest gopecon]

Oh she has no difficulty in getting to church. She's a very active, intelligent 83 year old. Can drive herself, do her taxes, carry on intelligent conversations, again very active. It's just that she can't hear so well and that's where I thought I'd be able to get the help from some of the leadership in the ward for her problem but so far, nada. So since she can't hear the speakers, she chooses to stay at home and read the Ensign or just simply relax.

Carl I would suggest that you make a specific request of the leadership in your ward on how they can help your mother. As Applepansy noted, there are amplifiers that can be made available, but the leadership may not be aware of them (I'm in a branch presidency, and I didn't know much about them. I'm pretty sure that we don't have them at our building). If someone asked me for help before reading this thread, I would have probably just suggested they get a hearing aid. Inspiration only goes so far, leaders can use suggestions from people who are close to situations.

To your original question, while it is up to the bishop to decide how active is enough for anyone, my personal opinion is that if someone is able to make it (as you report that your mother is), then they should attend their meetings - especially sacrament meeting. If they are able to go and choose not to, they should not expect the sacrament to be delivered. (Most of the times I've taken the sacrament to people we have just prayed and performed the ordinance, not made a whole mini-meeting out of it.)

[RMGuy]

When I visted about 200 families as a HPGL, I would often hear a significant subset of the less active indicate "boring meetings" as a reason they didn't want to go to Church. And this has been a theme for many youth who are still gaining testimonies.

We had an interesting conversation about just this in our stake recently. Most of us have jobs. Most also have hobbies and interests that we enjoy.

If someone offends you at work, do you stop going? If someone upsets you in your hobby, do you stop participating in it? Probably not. Yet this is one of the primary reasons that we "think" individuals stop attending church.

One of the other big reasons that we think people stop attending church is because they are sinning. Yet the reality is that every single person that you see at church on a Sunday or any other day for that matter is also sinning. I'm doing it, my Bishop is doing it, the deacon passing the sacrament is doing it, and the couple sitting just in front of you are doing it. So too is the person sitting next to you in the temple for that matter. We are all sinning, to some greater or lesser degree. Some are struggling with major sins, but that doesn't stop them from coming either. So what does.

We came to the conclusion that usually it is because we are not meeting their needs. I go to work, because it meets my needs. I might not like it, it might not be how I would do things, but it meets my needs. I participate in my hobbies and interests because it meets my needs. And with respect to Eowyn's post above.....which I think was spot on....we do have a responsibility to make sure our own needs are met, yet we also have responsibility as Brothers and sisters, leaders and teachers, to make sure that the needs of others are met as well.

In the context of the YM/YW program for example...are we following the manual and the program because that is what is there, or are we seeking inspiration and revelation (which is after all one of the things that we claim sets us apart from other denominations---many of which do a much better job of retaining their youth incidentally) in order to meet the individual needs of the youth within our unit. Are we pushing scouting because it it the "program of the church" for the young men in our unit even if the ym in our unit and their parents have no interest in scouting? Do we care about merit badges and knot tying, or do we care about progressing the individual. Helping them get what they need in terms of nuture, care, knowledge, and spiritual progression? What about Home Teaching...should I visit the family that has asked for no visits? Is it about the number or is it about showing respect for their wishes while letting them know that I care and am there if they need me?

Yes, it is our responsibility to make sure that we are spiritually fed personally. At the same time, if we really are what we claim to be....a church of continuous revelation, inspiration, and one where the Spirit can act on the individual member...then how can we as individuals use that to meet the needs of others. Are we willing to listen to what they have to say (to really hear them), or are we so adament that THIS IS THE WAY IT IS, that we drive them away?

-RM

[The_Phoenix]

I believe God is just and merciful at the same time. When He gives a commandment, not only does He judge you by whether you keep His commandment, but He also judges by your individual ability, or lack thereof, to do so.

As only a parent could.

[Guest]

With respect, mormonmusic, you could also say that your wife doesn't clean because it bores her and she doesn't feel like it. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

I agree that we should meet the needs of as many as possible with as much sensitivity and inspiration as we can. I think that overall, the leadership of the church is pretty good at that. Sure, you get a leader that stinks now and then, but hopefully there is enough positivity in other places that it shouldn't be so detrimental to a person. I know that there are cases where things are handled poorly, or people unfortunately fall through the cracks. But I think that much more frequently the people who leave are the ones who want to be spoon fed, persuaded, pulled along, coddled, handled with kid gloves as a rule. If they're not GETTING what they feel they deserve from it, they leave until someone comes and starts spoon feeding them again, and then when that can't be sustained, off they go until next time. We all need that once in awhile, but some people want it all the time, and for a part-time, unpaid "staff", that just isn't realistic. At some point it honestly becomes and issue of people finding reasons to leave because they really don't want to be there. This is a church of callings and service and work, and some of that work is enduring the more imperfect parts of other people's service. At some point it does become an issue of separating the wheat from the chaff. That sounds insensitive, I know, but there it is. The lord spits out the lukewarm. Not that I don't believe we shouldn't go after the one, but I do believe that the one has a responsibility, as well.

I blamed the people of the church for my sister's leaving for a long time. Yes, it's too bad that she didn't have better visiting teachers and I wish her husband hadn't had a run-in with some particularly pushy missionaries. But in the end, it was her choice to be offended and leave, and it's been her choice to become increasingly bitter and to not go back. And there is unresolved sin there, too, though I don't believe that's the case with everyone.

There are churches out there that will have fun, sensational meetings with games and coffee time after who encourage you to come in jeans and center what they do around what the people want, if that's what you're looking for. This church isn't that.

[Carl62]

Carl I would suggest that you make a specific request of the leadership in your ward on how they can help your mother.

I've done this more times than what I can count! As a matter of fact, the person who I've had the most talks with about this just happens to be their home teacher! Again, they just say 'we'll look into what we can do' then that's it. Not another word about it and the ball gets dropped again. I think they've kinda given up because, outside of actual headphones which the ward doesn't have anything set up for that, they don't know what to do.

[Guest gopecon]

Well said Eowyn! I've heard similar messages to RMGuy about loving people back and meeting their needs, and while that is true to an extent, people have to make decisions for themselves. There is only so much that can be reasonably expected of the members. I live in an area where the activity level of our stake is around 35%. With numbers like that, we have to decide how our manpower can be most effectively used. We've had major outreach efforts to some people, but at some point we have to realize that something is not working. You don't totally give up, but you pull back and try to find somewhere where the majority of your effort might be better spent.

[john doe]

I've done this more times than what I can count! As a matter of fact, the person who I've had the most talks with about this just happens to be their home teacher! Again, they just say 'we'll look into what we can do' then that's it. Not another word about it and the ball gets dropped again. I think they've kinda given up because, outside of actual headphones which the ward doesn't have anything set up for that, they don't know what to do.

Have you offered up any suggestions on how to deal with the problem? What exactly are you expecting them to do for her?

[Carl62]

To your original question, while it is up to the bishop to decide how active is enough for anyone, my personal opinion is that if someone is able to make it (as you report that your mother is), then they should attend their meetings - especially sacrament meeting. If they are able to go and choose not to, they should not expect the sacrament to be delivered. (Most of the times I've taken the sacrament to people we have just prayed and performed the ordinance, not made a whole mini-meeting out of it.)

While it is true that a person should attend Sacrament meeting for the partaking of the Sacrament, if a person is unable to hear the speakers for the last half hour then what is that person supposed to do? Should my mother just sit there and play crossword puzzles the entire time? What's the point if she can't hear what the speakers are saying? Is she supposed to show up just for appearances sake so that she won't be placed in some dumb 'inactive' category? It's easy for someone who doesn't have this problem to say "you MUST attend your meetings regardless!" For my mother, she probably gets way more spiritually out of reading a few pages of the Ensign on Sundays than she does just sitting in a meeting staring at the walls for an hour.

[Guest]

...

Have you offered up any suggestions on how to deal with the problem? What exactly are you expecting them to do for her?