Article 7: Are Mormons Pentecostal?

[Ray]

I meant our conversation just kept going around and around. That's all. Sorry for my miscommunication.

Yes, it does, Doc. And you know what? It's intentional.

My teachings mainly focus on the principle of Faith when someone wants to know what is true... or when I want to share what I know is true... because only from God can we all know what is true.

Do you want to ask or say anything else now, Doc???

[Dr T]

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Do you want to ask or say anything else now, Doc???

Okay. That's good. I recommend that you learn from God. :)

[Serg]

It is not the first time, in which i find Dr.T making a question, and Ray (and others) participating in the matter, and a circular motto of "ask God and thats it" results. Ray, maybe this upsets Dr.T, as he does not intend to get in such things, but to get a "clear/cut" response to a "clear/cut" question.

If that is the case, then Dr.T, We are not pentecostals. Pentecostals "glossalia" is very diferent from ours. We take in this modern times, the gift of tongues to reffer to languages(foreign ones). So then, no need for so many circles and posts, is a clear no.

I would do good, however, to tell you that the early church did believe in tongues of angels(not as our modern conception), at the same time it included foreign languages. Brigham Young got to speak Adam's language, and he claimed Smith showed him. Many diaries speak of tongues of "fire" at the kirtland dedication(our own pentecost), and they were not just different languages.

Why the change? I believe that none of them spoke such tongues in a godly given(or real) way, rather as reminicents of their old(but recent) faith, that included such conceptions. It was just another thing we left(for good in this case), just as we left racism, militarism, polygamy, and many other things(we are yet to leave some others-for good),

God does not change, but we sure do.

Regards,

[Princess3dward]

Can someone decifer Alam 19:29 for me please?

Is it of relevence to the topic?

and in verse 34, they had conversed with angels?

Is that in Gods language?

[Ray]

It is not the first time, in which i find Dr.T making a question, and Ray (and others) participating in the matter, and a circular motto of "ask God and thats it" results. Ray, maybe this upsets Dr.T, as he does not intend to get in such things, but to get a "clear/cut" response to a "clear/cut" question.

If that is the case, then Dr.T, We are not pentecostals. Pentecostals "glossalia" is very diferent from ours. We take in this modern times, the gift of tongues to reffer to languages(foreign ones). So then, no need for so many circles and posts, is a clear no.

I would do good, however, to tell you that the early church did believe in tongues of angels(not as our modern conception), at the same time it included foreign languages. Brigham Young got to speak Adam's language, and he claimed Smith showed him. Many diaries speak of tongues of "fire" at the kirtland dedication(our own pentecost), and they were not just different languages.

Why the change? I believe that none of them spoke such tongues in a godly given(or real) way, rather as reminicents of their old(but recent) faith, that included such conceptions. It was just another thing we left(for good in this case), just as we left racism, militarism, polygamy, and many other things(we are yet to leave some others-for good),

God does not change, but we sure do.

Regards,

I hope everyone realizes that this is Serg's post, and his opinion. He doesn't speak for me, or all LDS.

And he made several comments in this post that I do not agree with, but I do not feel like correcting him.

On the whole I agree with him a lot, though. :)

[Dr T]

Thank you for your thoughts, Serg. :)

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

It is not the first time, in which i find Dr.T making a question, and Ray (and others) participating in the matter, and a circular motto of "ask God and thats it" results. Ray, maybe this upsets Dr.T, as he does not intend to get in such things, but to get a "clear/cut" response to a "clear/cut" question.

If that is the case, then Dr.T, We are not pentecostals. Pentecostals "glossalia" is very diferent from ours. We take in this modern times, the gift of tongues to reffer to languages(foreign ones). So then, no need for so many circles and posts, is a clear no.

I would do good, however, to tell you that the early church did believe in tongues of angels(not as our modern conception), at the same time it included foreign languages. Brigham Young got to speak Adam's language, and he claimed Smith showed him. Many diaries speak of tongues of "fire" at the kirtland dedication(our own pentecost), and they were not just different languages.

Why the change? I believe that none of them spoke such tongues in a godly given(or real) way, rather as reminicents of their old(but recent) faith, that included such conceptions. It was just another thing we left(for good in this case), just as we left racism, militarism, polygamy, and many other things(we are yet to leave some others-for good),

God does not change, but we sure do.

Regards,

I hope everyone realizes that this is Serg's post, and his opinion. He doesn't speak for me, or all LDS.

And he made several comments in this post that I do not agree with, but I do not feel like correcting him.

On the whole I agree with him a lot, though. :)

That's the attitud while we all grow Ray! Thanks,

(I hope K.Packer thought the same-sorry, that's another issue )

[prisonchaplain]

I am very simply saying some "gifts" are from God, and some are really not from God.

If we ask Heavenly Father for a good gift will he give us (or allow to be given to us) an evil one? Luke 11:13 comes to mind--referencing the gift of the Holy Spirit, in particular.

It is true that some people operate "in the flesh," while claiming to speak for Christ. But, be careful with that particular sword--it is double-edged. B)

Doc,

If you think it is simply a waste of time for someone to say: I have learned the truth from God...

or I am trying to learn from God...or nobody can know what is true without faith or an assurance from God...

or anyone can know what is true with faith or an assurance from God...... regardless of whatever anyone else thinks... then that's what you think... and it's not what I think... it is not a waste of my time to hear that.

I think we all should say that when anyone else wants to know or understand what we think, and when I hear that sincerely from others I know they will learn what God thinks. But to each their own, Doc. You can learn any way that you want to. :)

Ray, what Dr. T has gently referred to is that, just as some can claim a gift from God that is really from Satan, others might claim that their testimony is from God, when, in fact . . . (like I said, a double-edged sword)

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

I am very simply saying some "gifts" are from God, and some are really not from God.

If we ask Heavenly Father for a good gift will he give us (or allow to be given to us) an evil one? Luke 11:13 comes to mind--referencing the gift of the Holy Spirit, in particular.

It is true that some people operate "in the flesh," while claiming to speak for Christ. But, be careful with that particular sword--it is double-edged. B)

One may not preocupate for a sword that has two edges if one of them wont cut for sure. The edge presuming the efficacy of "tongues" cuts only in th extent it is taken as true. As we do not, and its left to be yet proven(both scripturally and logically), Ray has no crucial memento while saying what he says.

[prisonchaplain]

If that is the case, then Dr.T, We are not pentecostals. Pentecostals "glossalia" is very diferent from ours. We take in this modern times, the gift of tongues to reffer to languages(foreign ones). So then, no need for so many circles and posts, is a clear no.

Serg, thank you. You answered my OP, and also the very interesting historic citations Maureen supplied in a manner that is, indeed, crystal clear. As a side note, Article 7, to the uninitiated (including myself) reads very pentecostal. When we hear talk of "testimony"--it sounds somewhat pentecostal.

We often try to build bridges, and find areas in common. Sometimes, such appearances turn out to be mirages. :-)

We do learn, either way. :)

[Ray]

If you guys [Tommy, Doc (presumably), and Serg] are saying that there may only be one among us who has the real truth, and the other ones just think they do, even though all of us may really believe and might even say we know we do, then, why of course, I totally agree with what you guys are saying.

And FYI, I don't have to prove to any of you, or to anyone else, which one I am. The only one I really care to please is nobody else but God. :)

[prisonchaplain]

If you guys [Tommy, Doc (presumably), and Serg] are saying that there may only be one among us who has the real truth, and the other ones just think they do. . .

Is this really possible? Can I (or you) really truly believe we've obtained truth from God--have a personal, spiritual testimony to that truth, and yet be wrong? If that's true, then, in addition to spiritual witness (testimony), all these conversations, intellectual quests, etc. are not a waste of time. They are vital. God not only holds us responsible to hear his "still, small voice." He also expects us to use our noggin. And, the results of intellectual laziness, in the name of an ecstatic experience we allege to be grounded in spiritual revelation, could be eternally devestating.

Translation: God wants us to use our hearts, heads and hands.

[Dr T]

Well said P.C. :)

[boyando]

PC, you asked if LDS members ever speak in the Adamic tongue. I've never heard of it happening (doesn't mean it doesn't happen). I don't know what the purpose would be. Anyone else?

In the early Church, many talked in the Adiamic tongue. It was very uplifting at first. And then many started to try to speak it, even when they were not blessed with the gift.

Short story, some ended up not speaking the Adiamic tongue, but something of a evil spirit. - A.

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

PC, you asked if LDS members ever speak in the Adamic tongue. I've never heard of it happening (doesn't mean it doesn't happen). I don't know what the purpose would be. Anyone else?

In the early Church, many talked in the Adiamic tongue. It was very uplifting at first. And then many started to try to speak it, even when they were not blessed with the gift.

Short story, some ended up not speaking the Adiamic tongue, but something of a evil spirit. - A.

That is not only reasonable(and honest) but most likely true. Of course, my other "theory' of what happened, is plain realism, those who spoke "tongues of fire"(either adamic or current pentecostal), didnt do it truthfully(or in God's reality) rather they felt they did it out of genuine experience, as many of them had been part of restaurationists churches(campbellites=diciples of Christ, metothists, presbyterians, purely evangelicals, you name it), and in history transcourse, Joseph got to see through that, and tore down the concept restricting it to th eonly acceptable interpretation of Acts 2, foreign languages.

Ray, i love you, dont include me in such cathegories of thought. (hey! not that I complain of being equated to such personalities as Tommmy and Dr, but is just -this time- not apropiate)

take care,

[Serg]

If you guys [Tommy, Doc (presumably), and Serg] are saying that there may only be one among us who has the real truth, and the other ones just think they do, even though all of us may really believe and might even say we know we do, then, why of course, I totally agree with what you guys are saying.

And FYI, I don't have to prove to any of you, or to anyone else, which one I am. The only one I really care to please is nobody else but God. :)

It sounds pentecostal to he who is uninitiated to mormonism, but has spent his share of life time within pentecostalism. Like you yourself. The same may be said other wise, to an iowa mormon, who never got in touch with pentecostals but only with mormonism, your propfession of believing in " tongues" may quickly make that Iowa mormon believe it sound just like mormonism(this is , reffering to foreign languages).

So there we go...its a high peaked concept.

regards,

[prisonchaplain]

This thought may be worthy of a new post, but I'll just stick it here. Yesterday, I attended a chaplains conference, and a Jewish representative made a great point. He said, "You Christian chaplains are always trying to find common ground, draw analogies, etc. Sometimes it just doesn't work/fit. For example, there may be some similarities in that we have holy days (Saturday/Sunday), but not in what we do on those days."

Likewise, there are similarities in pentecostal/mormon reliance on the Holy Spirit, and in some expectation of experiences beyond salvation. However, it probably does a disservice to both religions being compared to overdraw our similarities. :-)

[Serg]

Very wise. :)

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

If you guys [Tommy, Doc (presumably), and Serg] are saying that there may only be one among us who has the real truth, and the other ones just think they do. . .

Is this really possible? Can I (or you) really truly believe we've obtained truth from God--have a personal, spiritual testimony to that truth, and yet be wrong?

Heh, YES!!! Hello!!! Is there anybody out there who is listening? Do you need me to give you an example to show you that this really happens every day?

Okay. Try this example, AGAIN.

I say the Book of Mormon is true... that the words written on each page of the Book of Mormon were and are true and inspired by God... some words were written in the present as Joseph Smith translated some ancient writings... and some words were written by men long, long ago, like Nephi and Moroni, for instance. And I say that I know the Book of Mormon is true by continually receiving assurances from God... concerning each and every idea expressed through words in that book as I read the book and ask God if they're true.

Does everyone understand what I'm saying?

Good. Okay then.

Now, on the other hand, some other people claim that God has told them that the Book of Mormon is NOT true... that none of the words that are written in the Book of Mormon were truly inspired by God or written by men (like Nephi and Mormoni and others) long, long ago... and that instead it's some kind of a hoax that was devised and continues to be perpetuated by Satan and those gullible enough to follow him (Satan).

Does everyone understand what I just said?

Good. Okay then.

I hope you now see my point.

If that's true, then, in addition to spiritual witness (testimony), all these conversations, intellectual quests, etc. are not a waste of time. They are vital.

Bull pucky. I don't need to hear anything that YOU have said, or will say, or do say, about ANYTHING.

I can simply ask God to tell me the truth. I really don't care what you think... enough to accept what you are saying is true.

God not only holds us responsible to hear his "still, small voice." He also expects us to use our noggin.

Yes. And my noggin tells me that what you say is what YOU think. When I want to know truth, I'll ask God.

And, the results of intellectual laziness, in the name of an ecstatic experience we allege to be grounded in spiritual revelation, could be eternally devestating.

If I accepted what YOU say... what YOU say is true, then yes, that could really be devastating.

I would just be following YOU doing what YOU think is right, then maybe finding out later you were wrong.

Heh, no thank you. I'll learn the truth for myself by asking God.

Translation: God wants us to use our hearts, heads and hands.

Yes, God wants us to use our hearts, heads and hands to follow HIM and those who we know HE has authorized.

And I know when God authorizes other people to act for Him by receiving His assurance of those truths... like I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God by God assuring me that he was... and still is.

[prisonchaplain]

I hope you now see my point.

But, Ray, it's not 'your' point. You repeated my point, added an example, and claimed it for yourself. You plagiarist, you!

Bull pucky. I don't need to hear anything that YOU have said, or will say, or do say, about ANYTHING.

Ray, God has gifted some as teachers, some as bishops...we do well to listen to them. Surely, you listen to the prophets? Or, do you simply mean that you don't need to hear from me, personally?

I can simply ask God to tell me the truth. I really don't care what you think...

IM ALWAYS HO, the reason people (mostly LDS) get upset with Ray, and accuse you of having clumsy communication skills, is that you frequently assert (truthfully, me thinks) that you do not need to hear what others are saying.

God gave you two ears for a reason, hermano.

If I accepted what YOU say... what YOU say is true, then yes, that could really be devastating.

I would just be following YOU doing what YOU think is right, then maybe finding out later you were wrong.

Heh, no thank you. I'll learn the truth for myself by asking God.

Ray, it's not about me. It's about your unwillingness to hear what God may say to you through other people.

Yes, God wants us to use our hearts, heads and hands to follow HIM and those who we know HE has authorized.

So, what you are really saying is not that you don't listen to others, just that you don't listen to others who are not LDS, is that it? If so, I'd simply remind you that God can even speak through a donkey, so why would you think God might not grant you insight through discourse with 'Gentiles?'

[Ray]

Ray: I hope you now see my point.

prisonchaplain: But, Ray, it's not 'your' point. You repeated my point, added an example, and claimed it for yourself. You plagiarist, you!

Heh, yeah, right. I'm onto you now, buddy boy.

And btw, if you don't know, I was kidding just then... and I'm thinking that you were kidding too. :)

Ray: Bull pucky. I don't need to hear anything that YOU have said, or will say, or do say, about ANYTHING.

prisonchaplain: Ray, God has gifted some as teachers, some as bishops...we do well to listen to them. Surely, you listen to the prophets? Or, do you simply mean that you don't need to hear from me, personally?

My point is that I am not going to believe that someone is speaking for God just because they say so... even if they really believe they really are.

But if God tells me that someone is speaking for Him, or sharing the same thoughts that God would... on that particular occassion, under that particular set of circumstances... then it's the same.... that person is speaking or acting or representing God... though not necessarily with any or all of His authority.

Can you hear what I'm saying to you now???

Ray: I can simply ask God to tell me the truth. I really don't care what you think...

prisonchaplain: IM ALWAYS HO, the reason people (mostly LDS) get upset with Ray, and accuse you of having clumsy communication skills, is that you frequently assert (truthfully, me thinks) that you do not need to hear what others are saying... God gave you two ears for a reason, hermano.

Yes... to hear with. What's YOUR point... that I should not only hear you when you speak but that I should also ACCEPT what you tell me is true... when you say that you are speaking for God???

Get a grip, prisonchaplain. I wasn't born yesterday. I am not going to "just believe" what YOU tell me.

Ray: If I accepted what YOU say... what YOU say is true, then yes, that could really be devastating.

I would just be following YOU doing what YOU think is right, then maybe finding out later you were wrong.

Heh, no thank you. I'll learn the truth for myself by asking God.

prisonchaplain: Ray, it's not about me. It's about your unwillingness to hear what God may say to you through other people.

On your mark, get ready, set, GO!!! Say something directly from God for me now, Tommy.

I will hear what you're saying... even while only using my eyes... and I know how to know what is true.

Ray: Yes, God wants us to use our hearts, heads and hands to follow HIM and those who we know HE has authorized.

prisonchaplain: So, what you are really saying is not that you don't listen to others, just that you don't listen to others who are not LDS, is that it? If so, I'd simply remind you that God can even speak through a donkey, so why would you think God might not grant you insight through discourse with 'Gentiles?'

No... I never said he couldn't Tommy. I've heard from God through a LOT of other people, and sometimes I have heard Him through you... but right now I know some things that you just don't know, and I know how to know they are true.

Do you???

Then do it!!!

What are you waiting for???

[prisonchaplain]

I'm suddenly having this overwhelming sensation of deja vu. Is it just me?

[Ray]

I'm suddenly having this overwhelming sensation of deja vu. Is it just me?

No. And you know what else? It's intentional.

Faith is my most favorite principle of the gospel.

If YOU have a problem with that, deal with it.

[Traveler]

Article 7, which reads: Webelieve in the gift of tongues, revelation, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

I'm curious as to how these gifts are demonstrated in LDS worship. Does anyone ever speak in tongues during meetings? Does it happen during private prayer? When would tongues be interpreted? Is it always the same people, or do most people share these gifts? When tongues & interpretation are public, how is the message treated--as modern revelation? Is it subjected to a doctrinal review?

PC: I have not read all the post but I have had some personal experience while attending church in foreign lands. As I have traveled, there have been times that I have sat in a meeting and understood a foreign tongue with which I have no experience. I have also been able to communicate with someone where we had no common language. However, this has been the exception rather than the rule. It has never been something that appeared to be extraordinary. I doubt that most people attending were even aware of what happened.

The Traveler