Forgiveness

[Moonfire]

One of the most difficult things I know of is forgiveness. I would like to hear everyones thoughts on this. How do people view forgiveness, on a human level. How do we forgive someone if what they did was unforgivable,(I know, that is a contradiction but I hope you know what I mean.) How ever much somone has changed, or how sorry they are for what ever they did, does it really matter? Can we as humans really forgive someone and except them in general?

Also, I guess another question that can go along with all of this is that can people really change in the first place and regret what they did, no matter how severe their actions where against a person (or people.) If yes then how would someone forgive that person. Forgiveness is not that easy.

I know my views and thoughts on this. I would like to hear from others on the above.

One thing I am lost on however. How does a person forgive themselves?

Edit: I forgot to add this. Personal opinions and thoughts are welcome but I would really like to hear responses based on scriptures and spiritual beliefs as well.

[Latter Days Guy]

One example I can give is of a lady who's daughter was murdered in London. She publically forgave the people involved because she said as a Christian she believed that was what Jesus taught. I will try and find some info on her and post it here.

Her name was Mary Foley and here is some links about her case :

ForgivenessNet

BBC

In the BBC link she talks about how the only way to sort out her daughters killer is for her to have a spiritual relationship with Jesus as her saviour.

[Latter Days Guy]

Here's a few scripture verses to do with forgiveness.

D&C 98: 39-45

39 And again, verily I say unto you, if after thine aenemy has come upon thee the first time, he repent and come unto thee praying thy forgiveness, thou shalt forgive him, and shalt hold it no more as a testimony against thine enemy—

40 And so on unto the second and third time; and as oft as thine enemy repenteth of the trespass wherewith he has trespassed against thee, thou shalt aforgive him, until seventy times seven.

41 And if he trespass against thee and repent not the first time, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

42 And if he trespass against thee the second time, and repent not, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

43 And if he trespass against thee the third time, and repent not, thou shalt also forgive him.

44 But if he trespass against thee the fourth time thou shalt not forgive him, but shalt bring these testimonies before the Lord; and they shall not be blotted out until he repent and areward thee four-fold in all things wherewith he has trespassed against thee.

45 And if he do this, thou shalt forgive him with all thine heart; and if he do not this, I, the Lord, will aavenge thee of thine enemy an hundred-fold;

Mosiah 26: 22, 29-31

22 For behold, athis is my bchurch; whosoever is cbaptized shall be baptized unto repentance. And whomsoever ye receive shall dbelieve in my name; and him will I freely eforgive.

• • •

29 Therefore I say unto you, Go; and whosoever transgresseth against me, him shall ye ajudge baccording to the sins which he has committed; and if he cconfess his sins before thee and me, and drepenteth in the sincerity of his heart, him shall ye eforgive, and I will forgive him also.

30 Yea, and aas often as my people brepent will I forgive them their trespasses against me.

31 And ye shall also aforgive one another your trespasses; for verily I say unto you, he that forgiveth not his bneighbor’s trespasses when he says that he repents, the same hath brought himself under condemnation.

Matt. 6: 12, 14-15

12 And forgive us our adebts, as we bforgive our debtors.

• • •

14 For if ye aforgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye aforgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

[Moonfire]

One example I can give is of a lady who's daughter was murdered in London. She publically forgave the people involved because she said as a Christian she believed that was what Jesus taught. I will try and find some info on her and post it here.

Her name was Mary Foley and here is some links about her case :

ForgivenessNet

BBC

In the BBC link she talks about how the only way to sort out her daughters killer is for her to have a spiritual relationship with Jesus as her saviour.

All I an say is WOW! I didn't think there where any people like Mary Foley left on the planet.

Edit: I just noticed more stories at forgiveness.net as well. I think these are going to be worth reading.

[Brother Dorsey]

One thing I am lost on however. How does a person forgive themselves?

The Lord teaches us that we must forgive those who sin against us....even if they don't ask for forgiveness....for ours is the greater sin if we do not forgive them. As far as seeking forgiveness for ourselves....if we ask for forgiveness and repent, whether the other party forgives us or not the Lord will forgive us as long as we forgive ourselves too......If you have ever committed a sin that you were totally ashamed of, one that kept you up at night even though you sought forgiveness and repented for it, you still have this shameful heart.....this is because the Lord has not forgiven you because you have not forgiven yourself......you must seek his councel, pray and ask his help so you can forgive yourself....he loves you and will help....and once you have forgiven yourself, you will feel the joy of the atonment of Christ and your sin will be washed clean!

[Latter Days Guy]

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One thing I am lost on however. How does a person forgive themselves?

The Lord teaches us that we must forgive those who sin against us....even if they don't ask for forgiveness....for ours is the greater sin if we do not forgive them. As far as seeking forgiveness for ourselves....if we ask for forgiveness and repent, whether the other party forgives us or not the Lord will forgive us as long as we forgive ourselves too......If you have ever committed a sin that you were totally ashamed of, one that kept you up at night even though you sought forgiveness and repented for it, you still have this shameful heart.....this is because the Lord has not forgiven you because you have not forgiven yourself......you must seek his councel, pray and ask his help so you can forgive yourself....he loves you and will help....and once you have forgiven yourself, you will feel the joy of the atonment of Christ and your sin will be washed clean!

I totally agree, the hardest thing that I've found was forgiving myself for the sin in my life. Once I had realised that Heavenly Father had forgiven me it all just seemed a lot easier to forgive myself and move on. It's that point of realising that is the turning point, well it was for me anyway

[Gwen]

I have two thoughts on this, and yes it is hard for me too.

My husband and I are in the middle of a legal battle with his ex wife. because of that we have to document every little thing going on to possibly be used as evidence in court. having to document every little thing someone does against you is hard, and doesen't feel like forgiveness at all. so as i've been struggling with this i went to someone and asked that question, how do i forgive and not harbor anger toward someone when i have to document everything, leagally i can't forget and let it go. the two seem to clash. the conversation with my friend went something like this, what do you do when your 2 yr old spills red koolaid all over your just cleand carpet? do you harbor long term anger? of course i don't. why? that is the nature of a two year old they are going to spill things. well, if it isn't in her nature or current abilities to be more mature and not behave better how can you hold anger against her for being who she is right now? that really hit me hard. as i've applied that i have been able to document everything and not be angry. instead of looking at it as documenting actions against me, i see it as documenting evidence of who she is right now, nothing to be angry about, just reality. it also helped me to realize how many people i've struggled to "forgive" and really the problem was mine, not accepting who they are right now. not saying a person shouldn't grow and mature, but that is their decision, between them and the lord not my problem.

my second thought is a story from the young women's lesson manual. If you know who Corrie ten Boom is or have read one of her books "The Hiding Place" this story will mean even more. but a touching story none the less. if you haven't read the book i would recomend it, excelent book, very faith affirming for me. anyway, i'm copying this from lds.org from the manual. for anyone wondering to my knowledge she is not LDS jsut a good Christian, and i will warn you, i cry everytime i read it.

hope this helps

ALmom

“It was in a church in Munich that I saw him—a balding, heavyset man in a gray overcoat, a brown felt hat clutched between his hands. People were filing out of the basement room where I had just spoken, moving along the rows of wooden chairs to the door at the rear. It was 1947 and I had come from Holland to defeated Germany with the message that God forgives.

“It was the truth they needed most to hear in that bitter, bombed-out land, and I gave them my favorite mental picture. Maybe because the sea is never far from a Hollander’s mind, I liked to think that that’s where forgiven sins were thrown. ‘When we confess our sins,’ I said, ‘God casts them into the deepest ocean, gone forever. …’

“The solemn faces stared back at me, not quite daring to believe. There were never questions after a talk in Germany in 1947. People stood up in silence, in silence collected their wraps, in silence left the room.

“And that’s when I saw him, working his way forward against the others. One moment I saw the overcoat and the brown hat; the next, a blue uniform and a visored cap with its skull and crossbones. It came back with a rush: the huge room with its harsh overhead lights; the pathetic pile of dresses and shoes in the center of the floor; the shame of walking naked past this man. I could see my sister’s frail form ahead of me, ribs sharp beneath the parchment skin. Betsie, how thin you were!

[betsie and I had been arrested for concealing Jews in our home during the Nazi occupation of Holland; this man had been a guard at Ravensbruck concentration camp where we were sent.]

“Now he was in front of me, hand thrust out: ‘A fine message, Fräulein! How good it is to know that, as you say, all our sins are at the bottom of the sea!’

“And I, who had spoken so glibly of forgiveness, fumbled in my pocketbook rather than take that hand. He would not remember me, of course—how could he remember one prisoner among those thousands of women?

“But I remembered him and the leather crop swinging from his belt. I was face-to-face with one of my captors and my blood seemed to freeze.

“ ‘You mentioned Ravensbruck in your talk,’ he was saying, ‘I was a guard there.’ No, he did not remember me.

“ ‘But since that time,’ he went on, ‘I have become a Christian. I know that God has forgiven me for the cruel things I did there, but I would like to hear it from your lips as well. Fräulein,’ again the hand came out—’will you forgive me?’

“And I stood there—I whose sins had again and again to be forgiven—and could not forgive. Betsie had died in that place—could he erase her slow terrible death simply for the asking?

“It could not have been many seconds that he stood there—hand held out—but to me it seemed hours as I wrestled with the most difficult thing I had ever had to do.

“For I had to do it—I knew that. The message that God forgives has a prior condition: that we forgive those who have injured us. ‘If you do not forgive men their trespasses,’ Jesus says, ‘neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.’

“I knew it not only as a commandment of God, but as a daily experience. Since the end of the war I had had a home in Holland for victims of Nazi brutality. Those who were able to forgive their former enemies were able also to return to the outside world and rebuild their lives, no matter what the physical scars. Those who nursed their bitterness remained invalids. It was as simple and as horrible as that.

“And still I stood there with the coldness clutching my heart. But forgiveness is not an emotion—I knew that too. Forgiveness is an act of the will, and the will can function regardless of the temperature of the heart. ‘… Help!’ I prayed silently. ‘I can lift my hand. I can do that much. You supply the feeling.’

“And so woodenly, mechanically, I thrust my hand into the one stretched out to me. And as I did, an incredible thing took place. The current started in my shoulder, raced down my arm, sprang into our joined hands. And then this healing warmth seemed to flood my whole being, bringing tears to my eyes.

“ ‘I forgive you, brother!’ I cried. ‘With all my heart!’

“For a long moment we grasped each other’s hands, the former guard and the former prisoner. I had never known God’s love so intensely, as I did then” (excerpted from “I’m Still Learning to Forgive” by Corrie ten Boom. Reprinted by permission from Guideposts Magazine. Copyright © 1972 by Guideposts Associates, Inc., Carmel, New York 10512>).

[Traveler]

Forgiveness like any thing takes practice if one is to get good at it. Any worth while thing takes effort and practice. No one plays music because they were converted one afternoon at 3:25. It is usually best to start practice with the more easy stuff and work your way up the the difficult stuff. The more you practice the better you will get.

Jesus called his followers disciples which has the same root meaning as discipline. The concept of discipline is much in line with the efforts of practice. We discipline ourselves by repeatedly doing a thing. It has always been confusing to me those that indicate effort, practice and discipline are not necessary in preparing our character (soil) to live according to G-d will (seed).

The Traveler

[Moonfire]

A couple of more questions.

1 - Does anyone feel that forgiveness, in general, is easier for men or for women?

2 - Where and how does one start to practice to, (-A-) Forgive themselves, (-B-) Forgive others?

(oh, so there are no more mistakes My real name is Ron)

[Princess3dward]

A couple of more questions.

1 - Does anyone feel that forgiveness, in general, is easier for men or for women?

2 - Where and how does one start to practice to, (-A-) Forgive themselves, (-B-) Forgive others?

(oh, so there are no more mistakes My real name is Ron)

1. Hard for everyone

2. a) Now, through prayer B) Now, through prayer

[Maureen]

...well, if it isn't in her nature or current abilities to be more mature and not behave better how can you hold anger against her for being who she is right now?...

That is quite true but still sometimes difficult to accept in other people, especially people you are of an age and supposed maturity that they should know better behavior. Society is made up of social norms that I guess can be taken for granted or ignored altogether, and it's difficult to let people off the hook for their disrespect and selfishness. I know it's beneficial for the person doing the forgiving because it effects the forgiver more than the one being forgiven, it releases that weight of anger and resentment. The hard part is knowing when is it time to forgive, when has a person dealt with their feelings enough that it's time to forgive?

M.

[foip05]

I can not give you scripturs, or religion only life expereance. I am 14 and learnd forgivness the hard way. You would think that someone my age wouldnt be able to understand but i do more than i wont to admitt.

I undersant the consept of trying to forgive the unforgiveable. I was hurt at a vary young age in my life by 1 I thot I should be able to trust. The actions that had happend by this person have and will affect me for the rest of my teen and adault years. I never thot that I would forgive this 1 person for doing what they did to me,

but then when they are ripped from this earth you cant help but wish you had forgiven them to there face and not just thrugh praying. Just becouse now i will never know if I truly for gave them or just say i do,at least in my heart i hope i for gave them. Dont get me rong im glad i was angre for a while but was it to long it felt like only days to me. these peopl will not be around for ever. I was 8 when he was taken from this planet.

I'm not saying he will pass tomorrow, but is it realy worth it to be upset at the unforgivible? (only you can ansewer)

if this person did dissaper, how would that affect your feeling then?

im not saying forget about what happend. Just asking yourself if you can live with it on eny scale

good luck

srry about the spelling