God being perfect?

[sdl54]

I'm not sure if this is somewhere in the LDS bible?

I'm going to have to disagree with GOD is perfect...If there is/was a god.

I posted in the wrong section before as a reply, but should clarify if this is a belief in LDS or other religions?

God making Lilith for Adam as a mistake would be a tiny mistake compared to the rape, murder, violence, abuse, torture, destruction of the world today.

All relationships would be perfect and there would be no need for divorce court nowadays.

It might seem more believable to me that there was a Lilith and she did not make the cut...If God was perfect he would not have had to punish Lilith when she did not to return to Adam from the Red Sea when the angels threatened her death.

If god was perfect there would be no imperfection in this world. It is possible to question things and not assume that God is perfect and still keep your faith, but to claim Lilith is irrelevant due to the fact that God is perfect is not a plausible or logical explanation as to who or what Liliths role in the bible is.

(Or any example, does not need to be the Lilith example!)

I just find it odd that God can be perfect, and not be willing to explore other avenues as to imperfections.

[Jennarator]

If there was a Lilith, she was free to choose. Her choices were not good. This is not Heavenly Father's fault. Again, if there even was a Lilith, and that I don't know.

[NeuroTypical]

1. The "LDS Bible" is the bible. You might be referring to the Book of Mormon, our 2nd set of scriptures.

2. The Lillith story is not found anywhere in LDS cannon, not taught, and rarely believed. In fact, until this thread on this forum, I went 40 years in the church without ever hearing that a mormon might believe the story.

3. The notion that mortal difficulties or hardships prove that God is mean/imperfect/wrong/etc, is an arguable notion. It's certainly the notion that my kids sometimes hold, when I make them do the dishes. From the LDS standpoint, God is a loving Father in Heaven, who is invested in us growing and learning and advancing into better things than we are now. And the way He picked to do that, is to send us here to encounter adversity, grow character, learn love, etc. Yeah, it's hard for an athiest to wrap their minds around it. But consider - should you ever have kids, do you expect them to sucessfully deal with a difficult thing and emerge a better kid?

[NadiaStar]

It is a curious notion to me. Where does atheist assumptions about the nature of God come from?

[sdl54]

I was actually baptised and raised Christian. But found still much of that questionable.

But I chose athiest eventually.

[Dravin]

I'm not sure if this is somewhere in the LDS bible?

As LM pointed out the LDS Bible is a bit of a confusing term as I've heard it referred to:

KJV

KJV w/ LDS Footnotes*

The Book of Mormon

Quadruple Combinations (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price).

*Actually makes the most sense all things considered.

That out of the way:

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So yes, it's a claim made in the Bible.

[JudoMinja]

What does it mean to be perfect? Many have formed in their minds this impossible preconceived notion that perfection means someone must have never been flawed, never incomplete, cannot improve because there is no longer any need for improvement, and cannot or would not create anything that is not also perfect. With this idea of perfection, of course one would think that God cannot be perfect and therefore there cannot be a God.

However, Matthew 5:48 (thank you Dravin) clearly states that perfection is possible, not only for God but for us as well. God would not give an impossible commandment, and He has commanded us to be perfect. How can we be perfect when we are so obviously flawed, incomplete, and sinful?

Perfection is possible because it is not a singular state of being that must always be. It is a process. Think of learning an instrument. One might consider the best violinist in the world to be a "perfect" example of violinist form and skill, but this person was not always perfect. He or she had to practice, starting from the very bottom and working their way up the scale through gradual improvements, step by step, line upon line, "precept upon precept" (Isaiah 28:13).

A "perfect" computer design had to be gradually built, starting with a very basic understanding of mechanics. A "perfect" loaf of bread had to be constructed and cooked by putting together incomplete ingrediants and practicing the art until it comes out satisfactorily. A "perfectly" behaved child had to be patiently brought up with caring love and discipline. A "perfect" body has to be built with careful dieting and exercise. And so on and so forth. Perfection is a process that we are all subjected to- yes even God, or He would not command and require it of us.

Since we are made in God's image, our ability to choose right from wrong (our agency) must be a Godly characteristic that is necessary for our perfection. Unfortunately, this ability to choose also means we can choose the path that leads away from perfection, but just think about it for a moment. Would we really be perfect, if we did not first choose to be perfect? And how can we choose, if we are not presented with both sides of the coin? If we are not given opposition?

We may be imperfect now, and the world we are in imperfect, but this is through no fault of God. This is part of the process that will ultimately lead to perfection. We make mistakes and learn from our mistakes. We fall, and fall, and fall again... so that we can pick ourselves back up, grow, learn, and eventually be perfected.

[rameumptom]

Biblically speaking, there is no Lilith. So God can be perfect in Christian belief, because there is no belief in Lilith. And even if there were, she made her own choices of disobedience.

We believe God gives man agency to choose right or wrong. In doing so, we become responsible for our own choices.

[NadiaStar]

So are atheists opposed to the idea of free will, or the idea that a deity and free will might be combined?

[Dravin]

A "perfect" computer design had to be gradually built, starting with a very basic understanding of mechanics. A "perfect" loaf of bread had to be constructed and cooked by putting together incomplete ingrediants and practicing the art until it comes out satisfactorily. A "perfectly" behaved child had to be patiently brought up with caring love and discipline. A "perfect" body has to be built with careful dieting and exercise. And so on and so forth. Perfection is a process that we are all subjected to- yes even God, or He would not command and require it of us.

It should be noted that the word translated as perfect in Matthew 5:48 is teleios (Strong's Greek: 5046. (teleios) -- having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect ) which goes along with what you are talking about.

[slamjet]

So I guess that we, who aren't capable of creating a single viable and living cell out of amino acids are qualified to pass judgment the person who created the universe. I dunno, kind-of seems like a bit of a meaningless argument to me.

[Backroads]

I have a question in return... why so many atheists think God would not allow free agency?