I can't stand someone!

[Hala401]

I am really ashamed to tell this but right now I just don't know what do to.

So I finally got Baptised last month, and am really thankful for that. Heavenly Father has blessed me so much.

So, now we are starting the New Member Lessons and what happened last night felt like the Spanish Inquisition. The man was blunt and rude and it felt like he tried to force me to believe just a certain thing. It started with The Articles of Faith, and I belive them and will obey them. Then he moved on to D&C 130:22-23. He practically forced me to say that God has a body of flesh and blood. Well, fine, I agree, but I also assert that Heavenly Father can take pretty much any form he wants to. He seemed really upset by that, and really pushed me to the point that I really wanted to just get up and go home.

Today, another sister, and a good friend, said that i missinterpret what he says and see him as another abuser. Yalllah !!!!

So, right now I am not in a good place. I want to please Heavenly Father, and will be praying and trying to find a way to cope with him. I would really appreciate some sage advice and prayer.

Much peace

Hala

[Guest]

Doctrinally speaking, I'd be inclined to agree with him, though I don't know 100% if I'd be right. But if he's being pushy and abrasive, that's another thing. I'm sure there are more ward missionaries that could work with you. My husband is one of many. He's been assigned to the latest family to be baptized and teaches them every Sunday night, but if he can't or they didn't want him to, there are a lot of other people he could call. Was there anyone else there? A member of the Elder's quorum or anyone?

[DasMarcos]

The behavior exhibited is definitely not something my wife or I would put up with. It seems that this individual is failing to respect your feelings in this situation. Make them aware that this has been a negative experience for you and that you want to be able to work through this. Hurt feelings shouldn't be necessary here. My wife and I will be praying for you. We hope the situation gets resolved!

[Hala401]

Thank you both. This situation has deeply upset me. I won't be harshly confronting him, because Heavenly Father has been so good to me, and now I wonder if this is some sort of learning experience, so I'm going to pray a lot about it.

One thing I do not understand is D&C 130:22 does say, "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as any mans's; the Son Also...

I agree with that, and in the case of God, I think he can assume any form that he wishes. I am not God, and do not know everything about God, and for me to say that Heavenly Father can only have one form, to me is presumptive and arrogant, to put it mildly.

In the past I would have simply left and gone home and he would never see me again. However, I feel like Heavenly Father is wanting me to learn something here, so out of obedience I am going to pray a lot and take it. This is so upsetting that I am actually physically ill over it, and I have never had anything affect me like this. I don't know what I'm doing wrong but I certainly want to stop it.

Gwendolyn

[jayanna]

Have patience, Gwendolyn, we will have much understanding over time. Is there a particular principle that was bieng taught? Perhaps focusing on the principle rather than the specific scripture will help.

I love your humble nature, and your desire to learn. That is a most important thing to have, and important way to be as we will enter into God's kingdom teachable as little children are.

[Hala401]

Have patience, Gwendolyn, we will have much understanding over time. Is there a particular principle that was bieng taught? Perhaps focusing on the principle rather than the specific scripture will help.

I love your humble nature, and your desire to learn. That is a most important thing to have, and important way to be as we will enter into God's kingdom teachable as little children are.

Thank you. I am searching for Heavenly Father's will in this. My experiences with men early on were abusive and traumatising. Then as I aged I met both good men and abusers, so while I learned to relate to the good ones, those who feel abusive to me feel awful and frightening. Last night I thought I stood up to him fairly well but then after I cried, and today I cried, and I just feel a wreck.

Maybe it is as simple as Heavenly Father wanting me to learned to not be so frightened of forceful men. I definitely am praying about this.

Much Peace

Gwendolyn

[Colirio]

Gwendolyn, I don't know you very well, but, it seems to me that you are on the right track!

However, I feel like Heavenly Father is wanting me to learn something here, so out of obedience I am going to pray a lot and take it.

I am searching for Heavenly Father's will in this.

These are the statements of someone who is drawing nearer and nearer to the most non-abusive Man that exists. I know that the Lord loves you and must be SO PLEASED with your decisions!

With that being said, I can promise you that the path towards our Heavenly Father has a lot of obstacles (sometimes in the form of people!). The adversary is clever and quick to try and get us off track. I have found that one of the sneakiest tricks he uses is to attempt to bring contention into our hearts:

3 Nephi 11:28 And according as I have commanded you thus shall ye baptize. And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

Whatever the topic that was being discussed, it was less important than maintaining the Holy Spirit and avoiding contention.

Contention has a way of consumming our thoughts and cutting us off from receiving further light and knowledge into the matter being discussed.

[Hala401]

Gwendolyn, I don't know you very well, but, it seems to me that you are on the right track!

These are the statements of someone who is drawing nearer and nearer to the most non-abusive Man that exists. I know that the Lord loves you and must be SO PLEASED with your decisions!

With that being said, I can promise you that the path towards our Heavenly Father has a lot of obstacles (sometimes in the form of people!). The adversary is clever and quick to try and get us off track. I have found that one of the sneakiest tricks he uses is to attempt to bring contention into our hearts:

Whatever the topic that was being discussed, it was less important than maintaining the Holy Spirit and avoiding contention.

Contention has a way of consumming our thoughts and cutting us off from receiving further light and knowledge into the matter being discussed.

Sigh. So, I have a choice to make peace with him, or lose Heavenly Father's blessings.

[Colirio]

Well, my intention was not to call you to repentance, Gwendolyn.

My intention was merely to point out one of the most effective tactics that Satan uses to keep us from being able to enjoy the blessings of the gospel in our lives. He likes to get us so worked up over our perceived differences that we lose sight of the love and concern we should have for the soul with whom we are discussing such matters.

I know that Heavenly Father will answer your prayers and I have every confidence that you will make the choices He wants you to make; even if they seem difficult for a season.

[Hala401]

Well, my intention was not to call you to repentance, Gwendolyn.

My intention was merely to point out one of the most effective tactics that Satan uses to keep us from being able to enjoy the blessings of the gospel in our lives. He likes to get us so worked up over our perceived differences that we lose sight of the love and concern we should have for the soul with whom we are discussing such matters.

I know that Heavenly Father will answer your prayers and I have every confidence that you will make the choices He wants you to make; even if they seem difficult for a season.

I do not know if I can grow into the LDS shoes. Mormons have shown me love like no one else in my life. Thank you Heavenly Father...

[pam]

Gwendolyn I can understand where you are coming from. I love that you want to put this all in Heavenly Father's hands and have Him direct you as to what you should do.

This gentleman who came to teach you perhaps has a lesson that he needs to learn. If he was called to a position to teach new members sometimes there is a reason for that. Many who are called to a calling are not called because the person extending the calling think they are the most qualified. Some callings are extended (by inspiration) because there is something that person needs to learn as well.

Perhaps in this instance, this gentleman needs to learn how to teach. Perhaps he needs to learn patience in teaching someone who may not be at the same level of knowledge or spirituality that he may be at. Perhaps you are just the person who can teach him that.

Just because someone got baptized does not mean that they automatically throw away everything from another religion that they once believed. There is a quote and I will see if I can find it that basically states...that we want people to bring all that is good from their previous religion and add to what we believe as well. Paraphrasing of course. Let me find the exact quote.

Bottom line..be patient, pray...perhaps shower him with kindness and hope that his directness will be softened so that both of you can have a great experience and learn something from this.

No idea if any of this made sense. :)

[DasMarcos]

I do not know if I can grow into the LDS shoes. Mormons have shown me love like no one else in my life. Thank you Heavenly Father...

Hala, the key thing is that you keep growing spiritually and learn to love those around you. That means people who even rub you the wrong way and make life hard for you. This is an obviously tough situation for you and I want you to know that you can persevere and get through it. You don't have to confront someone to get a point across. Just let them now politely and gently that what happened disturbed you.

This doctrinal issue pales in comparison with the way it is represented. Perhaps it was the way the man went about it that got you so uneasy and not the doctrine itself. You know yourself best so pray to God and see what the true emotions and feelings are here.

But remember to keep working through this process. You're new to the LDS and being new to any organization can be rather difficult. Best of luck settling in.

[MormonMama]

I do not know if I can grow into the LDS shoes. Mormons have shown me love like no one else in my life. Thank you Heavenly Father...

Don't worry about filling anyone else's shoes. Mormons have shoes of all different sizes. I know I will never grow into some members' shoes. DH, due to a brain injury, will never grow into some members' shoes. But that's not why we're here. We're here just to grow and learn to the best of our own ability and not compare ourselves to others.

[Hala401]

Don't worry about filling anyone else's shoes. Mormons have shoes of all different sizes. I know I will never grow into some members' shoes. DH, due to a brain injury, will never grow into some members' shoes. But that's not why we're here. We're here just to grow and learn to the best of our own ability and not compare ourselves to others.

Please do not let yourself feel somehow "less than" because of your brain injury. Heavenly Father will help you to be everything you need to be in spite of that. Because of my own past, I have spent just lots of time reading about Neuro Science and Early Childhood Development. I just so hope that you are in a nurturing environment, because the love of Heavenly Father and others can overcome so much. Please do not sell yourself short.

[bytor2112]

He practically forced me to say that God has a body of flesh and blood.

Hala....just for the record if this brother told you that Heavenly Father has a body of flesh and blood...that is incorrect. Heavenly Father has a body of flesh and bone....not blood.

Edited February 11, 2012 by bytor2112

[Hala401]

Hala....just for the record if this brother told you that Heavenly Father has a body of flesh and blood...that is incorrect. Heavenly Father has a body of flesh and bone....not blood.

The "Flesh and Blood" part was my mistake. Sorry. After praying and talking to some of the other Sisters, we have decided that I could learn much by continuing with being taught by him.

[Martain]

I've appreciated your willing spirit and your insight as to what those coming from other faiths can believe.

While I don't agree with his methods, personally I agree with his conclusion and I'll try to explain why. Perhaps it will help =)

First off, from D&C 130:22 we learn that the Father has a body of flesh and bone. One day we too will have a glorified resurrected body of flesh and bone. At that point, rather than the body being quickened by blood as it is now, it will be quickened by the spirit instead.

Joseph Fielding Smith

After the resurrection from the dead our bodies will be spiritual bodies, but they will be bodies that are tangible, bodies that have been purified, but they will nevertheless be bodies of flesh and bones, but they will not be blood bodies, they will no longer be quickened by blood but quickened by the spirit which is eternal and they shall become immortal and shall never die. (In Conference Report, Apr. 1917, pp. 62–63.)

One reason I believe as your teacher does can be found in Hebrews 1:1-3

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus Christ is the express image or likeness of Heavenly Father meaning he looks exactly like him the same way that Seth looked exactly like his father Adam (D&C 107:43).

Since I don't see Jesus Christ as ever ceasing to be the express image of his father, logic tells me that Heavenly Father doesn't change his physical shape or appearance.

Another reason I agree with your teacher as to our Heavenly Father's physical appearance can be found in the following scriptures; Alma 31:17, Mormon 9:9, D&C 35:1, 1 Nephi 10:18, 2 Nephi 27:23.

Basically these scriptures all say the same thing of:

Mormon 9:9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

Can you reconcile a belief that Heavenly Father could change in physical appearance and likeness with the above scripture? Personally I can not.

Therefore, having a knowledge of these and other scriptures, I conclude that Heavenly Father does not take on any other shape. Why would he being perfect, have any need or desire to do so? How could he and yet remain without variableness or shadow of changing?

Did this help?

Edited February 12, 2012 by Martain

[Hala401]

I've appreciated your willing spirit and your insight as to what those coming from other faiths can believe.

While I don't agree with his methods, personally I agree with his conclusion and I'll try to explain why. Perhaps it will help =)

First off, from D&C 130:22 we learn that the Father has a body of flesh and bone. One day we too will have a glorified resurrected body of flesh and bone. At that point, rather than the body being quickened by blood as it is now, it will be quickened by the spirit instead.

One reason I believe as your teacher does can be found in Hebrews 1:1-3

Jesus Christ is the express image or likeness of Heavenly Father meaning he looks exactly like him the same way that Seth looked exactly like his father Adam (D&C 107:43).

Since I don't see Jesus Christ as ever ceasing to be the express image of his father, logic tells me that Heavenly Father doesn't change his physical shape or appearance.

Another reason I agree with your teacher as to our Heavenly Father's physical appearance can be found in the following scriptures; Alma 31:17, Mormon 9:9, D&C 35:1, 1 Nephi 10:18, 2 Nephi 27:23.

Basically these scriptures all say the same thing of:

Can you reconcile a belief that Heavenly Father could change in physical appearance and likeness with the above scripture? Personally I can not.

Therefore, having a knowledge of these and other scriptures, I conclude that Heavenly Father does not take on any other shape. Why would he being perfect, have any need or desire to do so? How could he and yet remain without variableness or shadow of changing?

Did this help?

Yes, thank you. I can not argue with your point of view because you have the intellectual high ground here. It does however generate just lots of questions for me.

So, the creator of the universe is running around in a flesh and bone body. How does he then get to other Galaxies at will. He stopped the rotation of the Earth. (Joshua 10:13) and I think Heavenly Father did it more than once. I am saying that I believe what the Bible says, but how can one who has only one form do all these things?

Please do not see me as a questioner because of lack of faith, but simply one who quests to more fully understand Heavenly Father.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Hala read this account Joseph Smith wrote about the Angel Moroni in Joseph Smith History:

43 After this communication, I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around him; when, instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.

It appears to me immortal beings can travel in an advanced way beyond our understanding. Whatever this conduit was that Moroni ascended up into apparently is one way resurrected beings can travel at great speed.

[Hala401]

Hala read this account Joseph Smith wrote about the Angel Moroni in Joseph Smith History:

43 After this communication, I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around him; when, instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.

It appears to me immortal beings can travel in an advanced way beyond our understanding. Whatever this conduit was that Moroni ascended up into apparently is one way resurrected beings can travel at great speed.

Without wishing to sound impertenant, I think that perhaps it is all explainable with science, but most of that science may be beyond our present understanding. A physicist once told me that the theoretical folks postulate 16 dimensions at present, yet all we can explain right now is 4 of them, and really comfortable with Heavenly Father knowing more than me.

[Martain]

Without wishing to sound impertenant, I think that perhaps it is all explainable with science, but most of that science may be beyond our present understanding. A physicist once told me that the theoretical folks postulate 16 dimensions at present, yet all we can explain right now is 4 of them, and really comfortable with Heavenly Father knowing more than me.

I absolutely agree! And no you don't sound impertinent. I'm fairly sure that most if not all of us are in absolute agreement with what you just said.

[Martain]

It does however generate just lots of questions for me.

So, the creator of the universe is running around in a flesh and bone body. How does he then get to other Galaxies at will. He stopped the rotation of the Earth. (Joshua 10:13) and I think Heavenly Father did it more than once. I am saying that I believe what the Bible says, but how can one who has only one form do all these things?

The short answer? Because he's God =). No seriously though, there are somethings we simply do not yet know and which have not been revealed. Actually it's a rather large extensive list truth be told.

Your real question above would be how can one who has only one form do all these things right?

Well I understand one part of the answer which is the principal of divine investiture. Divine investiture is where Heavenly Father gives another authority to go and act and speak in his name and with his power.

Think of our Savior Jesus Christ for example. We're taught that it was Christ at the command of his father who created this world and many others right?

In short, God does not have to be in all places at all times in order to have his will carried out. He doesn't have to be in all places at all times to be omnipresent. He has hosts and legions of angels to carry out his will. Not only these but matter itself obey's his will when commanded to do so (Abraham 2:7).

I guess my question to you would then be what leads you to feel or believe that Heavenly Father needs any other form than that which he has?

While not speaking directly of Heavenly Father, I found the following teachings regarding the Holy Ghost shed some additional light and supported my understanding. From the Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual which is an official publication of the Church used to teach doctrine, the following can be found:

Chapter 5 The Holy Ghost

■ “The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. He is a Spirit, in the form of a man. . . . The Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, and has a spirit body only. His mission is to bear witness of the Father and the Son and of all truth.

“As a Spirit personage the Holy Ghost has size and dimensions. He does not fill the immensity of space, and cannot be everywhere present in person at the same time. He is also called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of Truth, and the Comforter” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:38).

■ “The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence” (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 276).

■ “The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son, but by his intelligence, his knowledge, his power and influence, over and through the laws of nature, he is and can be omnipresent throughout all the works of God” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 61).

Hope some of this will help answer your questions or at least lead you on to more and more of them =)

Edited February 12, 2012 by Martain

[MormonMama]

Please do not let yourself feel somehow "less than" because of your brain injury. Heavenly Father will help you to be everything you need to be in spite of that. Because of my own past, I have spent just lots of time reading about Neuro Science and Early Childhood Development. I just so hope that you are in a nurturing environment, because the love of Heavenly Father and others can overcome so much. Please do not sell yourself short.

Lol, it's not my brain injury. DH is the one with the injury, and while he will never be as smart as some people, that's true of all of us. He has a kind heart and a good work ethic and he knows how to treat a lady. That makes him head and shoulders above many smarter people I know! :)

Without wishing to sound impertenant, I think that perhaps it is all explainable with science, but most of that science may be beyond our present understanding. A physicist once told me that the theoretical folks postulate 16 dimensions at present, yet all we can explain right now is 4 of them, and really comfortable with Heavenly Father knowing more than me.

I agree with you on this. I believe our understanding of science is very limited at this point. And I say this as someone who has a love of science and has studied it most of my life.

Edited February 12, 2012 by MormonMama

[Madriglace]

This is one of things that happens to nearly every new convert ... something comes along that is designed by the adversary to shake your faith. Keep learning and then follow the promise in Moroni 10:4 .... that promise applies to the gospel as a whole. If your teachers gets confrontational again tell him that you are here to learn and build your own testimony ... he can give you the foundation but he cannot force your testimony.

A new sister is our ward is an expert atthis kind of learning. She takes what the teachers are saying (she even takes notes in single adult home evening) and then goes home and reads all she can about it and prays. You can visually see her growing ... line upon line.

The author of all science is the Father ... makes sense that He uses it to fill His needs. Also makes sense that compared to Him we are still in the dark ages. Keep up the good work.

[Hala401]

This is one of things that happens to nearly every new convert ... something comes along that is designed by the adversary to shake your faith. Keep learning and then follow the promise in Moroni 10:4 .... that promise applies to the gospel as a whole. If your teachers gets confrontational again tell him that you are here to learn and build your own testimony ... he can give you the foundation but he cannot force your testimony.

A new sister is our ward is an expert atthis kind of learning. She takes what the teachers are saying (she even takes notes in single adult home evening) and then goes home and reads all she can about it and prays. You can visually see her growing ... line upon line.

The author of all science is the Father ... makes sense that He uses it to fill His needs. Also makes sense that compared to Him we are still in the dark ages. Keep up the good work.

This is a challenge for me. In the past, if someone made me feel like I feel with him, that would be it, and I would just walk away; never talking to him again. Let me be clear, he is married and I am almost old enough to be his mother, so there is nothing going on there.

So, looking at Heavenly Father's higher purpose, and taking in mind what Jesus said, the realisation that we are to emulate his conduct even when we do not wish to do so. Surah 49 from the Qur'an also comes to mind and the realisation that Heavenly Father is calling me to something higher is unavoidable.

So, pleasing Heavenly Father is the goal, and the fact that he is leading me to a whole new way should not have been surprising, but it was. It is with some trepidation that I promise Heavenly Father to try to follow his will