Job and murmuring

[MrShorty]

I've been reading Job lately. There's one thing about Job that bothers me.

I asked my daughter (whose seminary class just finished their lessons on Job) what she had learned. Her response, "He was pretty much perfect." Perhaps a bit of an exaggeration, but similar to a lot of the things I've heard said about Job.

However, Job seemed to have a real knack for complaining. With multiple, "I wish I had never been born." statements and other complaints against God and his afflictions.

It seems to me that when we talk about "enduring our afflictions well," I get the impression that we aren't supposed to complain about it so much. Does Job's example suggest that it is ok to express our frustration with our situations, or is this an example of Job being less than perfect?

[MarginOfError]

I recently asked in a Sunday School lesson summary "Are stress and anxiety the same thing as murmuring?"

[Guest]

Complaining is fine. What's not fine is to complain and complain then wait for other people, or God, to solve the problem. Job didn't do that.

[sixpacktr]

The point of Job is that bad things happen to good people. Job never questioned that he was a wicked person, even though his own wife told him to 'curse God and die', or his friends continually questioned his righteousness. Job never lost sight of the fact that he had done everything that God told him to do. What Job had to learn, apparently, was that even though he was righteous he needed to learn sorrow and endurance. I don't think he was murmuring, per se, but simply confused (much as we are when we do right and yet somehow bad things happen or continue to happen). In the end the Lord enlightens him and tells him, basically, I am God and I know the beginning from the end, and all things work for your good...

[Dravin]

As far as expression of our frustrations. I think we can most certainly do that, but there is a difference between voicing frustrations and complaining to God (or others). For example a couple of prayers:

Prayer #1: Lord I am having a difficult time. My trials and afflictions are closing in on me and I am coming to you for comfort and strength.

Prayer #2: Lord my life sucks, I wish you'd just killed me in the womb. There is nothing good or worthwhile in my life and experience.

Keep in mind we are to endure our afflictions well but I'm not familiar with a command to be the perfect stoic. It's easy to confuse the two but consider coming home from work and telling your wife, "I had a hard day to day, lots of stress. I need a hug." It's an expression of frustrations, it's certainly not being perfectly stoic, but I don't think it's failing to endure your afflictions/trials/challenges/life well.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Dravin

[Guest]

When Nephi's steel bow broke, his family murmured. When he went to Lehi for help, Lehi and Sariah had to repent of their murmuring before the Liahona would work.

I thought about this a lot this weekend, because my husband's bow broke last year. He got laid off and hasn't found a good full-time, steady position since. He's been bringing home the bacon with a wood bow that he fashioned, as it were, but we don't have the security of the steel bow, and I don't know when we will again. I've been murmuring lately. I've been worrying, and complaining in my heart a bit, and moping around. Is it that I've been explicitly sinning, or that because I'm murmuring, I'm not able to exercise the faith that I need to, and thus maybe our Liahona isn't working as well?

I think it's more the lack of faith than the murmuring itself. Since Heavenly Father has always come through for me and He has been taking care of us and He has never, ever given me a reason to doubt that He won't see that our needs are provided for (as long as we're also doing our best), I think I do need to repent of not having faith.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Eowyn
What's a Liahooa?

[MrShorty]

Dravin:

The thing is that chapter 3 and maybe chapter 10 sound to me a lot more like prayer #2 than prayer #1.

Eowyn:

I think it's more the lack of faith than the murmuring itself.

There might be something to this. Job's words might get my attention the way they do because I wonder if it shows how difficult it can be, especially in someone else, to discern the difference between mere "frustration" and "lack of faith."

[Dravin]

Dravin:

The thing is that chapter 3 and maybe chapter 10 sound to me a lot more like prayer #2 than prayer #1.

It's only a thing if we want to paint Job as a perfect being without flaw (in the sense the Savior was/is).

Edited March 13, 2012 by Dravin

[Tyler90AZ]

Everybody murmurs once in awhile, we can see that even great prophets job and lehi both did. Even Jesus did when he asked the father why he must drink of this cup. In my opinion it becomes a problem when it becomes a part of your character.

[mordorbund]

Remember that Job is a drama. I watch some modern dramas based on Bible stories and could ask similar questions. Why is Moses and Ramses always rivals, even in youth? Ah, I see, it's just a storytelling device to foreshadow the future face-off.

Chapter 3 of Job especially smacks of storytelling. The narrator has told us of his afflictions, but how bad are they really? As we enter the body of the play, Job sings his lamentation. Later chapters can be viewed as alternating between Job's response to his accusers ("just as the Lord's rain falls on the just and unjust, his hailstorms will do the same"), and his own introspective moments where he can't help but wonder the same ("why am I being punished? why was I even born if the purpose was just to suffer?").

Edited March 14, 2012 by mordorbund

[HEthePrimate]

There's a nice little book (76 pages) called May I Hate God? by Pierre Wolff. I know the title is shocking, but it's actually quite a good book, told from a faithful (Wolff was a Jesuit priest for almost 40 years, before becoming an Episcopal priest) perspective. In it, the author essentially argues that complaining to God, hating him, etc. is a sign that the person first of all believes in God, and also that she has an actual relationship with God. In other words, religion and prayer are not just intellectual exercises, but an ongoing, back-and-forth relationship. He also argues that God is a big boy and can handle our anger, frustration, doubt, and so on without losing his own temper or disowning us. As any loving parent, God cares for us, his children, even when we throw temper tantrums, and talks us through them, and lets us blow off steam.

Of course Job the man was not perfect--the scripture never claims such a thing--and I'd be more skeptical if Job did not complain. But the Book of Job is a fascinating story that brings up interesting questions.

[MrShorty]

As I've continued to read through Job, I've noticed that there seems to be a change in Job's responses as the narrative (whether historical, historical fiction, or fiction) progresses. The "wo is me; I wish I were never born" type responses are early in the narrative. As the narrative progresses, he seems to become more philosophical about his plight. More accepting. More like he's settling in for the long haul through his afflictions. Which kind of makes sense to me. When tragedy strikes, it often seems that my first knee jerk reaction is some kind of "this is terrible, I wish this hadn't happened" response followed eventually by acceptance and endurance. So maybe Job shows a range of responses to tragedy.

[Martain]

I know someone who had to endure something so horrific and so hellish that they plead to God that if relief could be afforded no other way that they be allowed to die instead of continue to suffer.

Unless I were to experience what Job experienced, I do not think I would be right to judge Job harshly for his lamentations. I expect that all of us would cry similarly.

The fact alone that he persevered through such trials enduring to the end would in my mind be validation of him being worthy of some of the praise you have heard.

Index to the triple combination - MURMUR, MURMURING

see also Complain; Contention; Disobedience; Disputations; Dissension; Hardheartedness; Rebel.

I don't feel his cries were murmuring.

[MrShorty]

Unless I were to experience what Job experienced, I do not think I would be right to judge Job harshly for his lamentations.

Chances are none of us has been asked to leave our homes, "camp" in the wilderness for eight years, build a boat, and cross the ocean to a new land. And yet, we feel free to condemn Lehi for his temporary bout with murmuring in the desert. Maybe it's because Nephi didn't murmur, so we figure Lehi should not have murmured. I suspect the only real reason we have to dpeak ill of Lehi is because the BoM records that the Lord chastised Lehi for his murmuring. In Job, there is no indication that the Lord chastised Job for any of his complaining.

I do thin you're right, though. In the end, we have to leave judgement to God.

[sixpacktr]

If I remember right, Christ didn't ask the Father why he must drink of this cup. He asked if there was no other way to do it, but if not, he'd submit. That's isn't murmuring. That is hoping there is another way of fulfilling his mission. Big difference.

Christ didn't murmer.

[Dove]

In Job ch. 38, it seems to me that God is putting Job in his place for having murmured. God is certainly letting him know in no uncertain terms who is in charge, who is the Creator, etc. This goes on until ch 40, where is says in the ch. heading that God then challenges Job in his complaining, where Job then answers humbly and repentantly.

So, Job was not perfect in his suffering; but, what suffering it was! In ch 42, Job again repents in "sackcloth and ashes." One thing I do like is that God also chastises Job's friends for accusing him of deserving all the tragedy that fell on him by being evil, which he was not.

I believe it is critical not to judge others when they're having a difficult time or many trials as having done something wrong to deserve it. I believe it's really easy to blame others, by saying they haven't kept the commandments well enough, for the trials that have come to them. It's not ours to know or to judge; but, to respond in compassion and kindness. I'm thinking of the story in the NT (John 9:1-12) concerning the man who was blind at birth. The disciples asked the Saviour who had sinned, the man or his parents, that he was born blind. The Saviour said neither were. I point this out because it seems too easy to blame others for what they suffer.

[MrShorty]

Dove, it is an interesting coincidence that you would post this the day after I read chapter 38. It does seem that the Lord finally enters the picture, and he does appear to be chastising Job for his attitudes. And it looks like this chastisement goes on until chapter 42, where Job repents. He is only exonerated after this chastisement and subsequent repentance. How much of Job's repentance was specifically for "murmuring" I don't know, but it appears that after all that Job had said about his suffering, he needed to repent.

[Magen_Avot]

Concerning Jobs problems, I am reminded of the Saviors words to Joseph Smith while in jail where He said that the experience would be a small moment and be for his good.

Hope I don't get that much 'good'.

[Dove]

Dove, it is an interesting coincidence that you would post this the day after I read chapter 38. It does seem that the Lord finally enters the picture, and he does appear to be chastising Job for his attitudes. And it looks like this chastisement goes on until chapter 42, where Job repents. He is only exonerated after this chastisement and subsequent repentance. How much of Job's repentance was specifically for "murmuring" I don't know, but it appears that after all that Job had said about his suffering, he needed to repent.

Thanks for responding to my post, MrShorty;

This concept leaves me with something of a sweet euphoria concerning how to handle trials and tribulation. While Job was righteous and his trials were certainly not done to punish him due to wickedness, it still shows/tells me an appropriate way to act in my trials. I interpret it as "letting go and letting God" do His work in the often painful process of sanctification and purification. In other words, I no longer want to try and control the difficult experiences that come my way by complaining about them or asking for them to be removed. Rather, I would like to work on being grateful for God's hand in my life, go to Him to learn what the trial/tribulation is presented to teach me, and letting go of the burden that somehow I did something wrong/evil/wicked to deserve it. I'm certainly not perfect. The key to me is that, if God is chastening me or punishing me through my trials, I want to believe and trust that He is doing it out of love and in the best interest of my eternal welfare. When I look at it that way, it becomes a wonderfully glorious process of coming back to Him.

Dove