Who buried the plates where and when?

[Snirilla]

I' m a bit confused, It says that Mormon buried the plates in hill cumorah around 385 AD? Were those the "original" plates he abridged from? Then Moroni also says he hid plates between 400 and 421 AD, many years after the battle? Had he taken them out from Hill cumora and then written some more and then then put them back in the hill?

Does it ever say that Moroni also buried them in the hill cumoarh? It only says that Mormon did, right?

[Just_A_Guy]

As far as we know, all of the sacred records of the Book of Mormon peoples were first buried in a hill called Shim by Mormon's predecessor, a prophet named Ammaron. When Mormon was still a boy, Ammaron instructed him that after turning 24 years old Moroni was to go to Shim, retrieve some (not all) of the records, and add his own observations to those records. Mormon did so. Later, when it appeared that the area surrounding the hill was about to be permanently overrun, Mormon retrieved all of the records that had been buried there and moved them for safekeeping.

Mormon eventually re-deposited most of the records in the hill he called Cumorah. The exception was the gold plates on which our Book of Mormon was based, which Mormon gave directly to his son Moroni. This appears to have been done immediately prior to the final battle which resulted in the annihilation of Mormon's people and which also occurred at the place Mormon called Cumorah.

Moroni wandered for forty years after that battle. His writings give no clue as to where he went. There are Utah sources indicating that Brigham Young claimed Moroni wandered about the western United States for a time (supposedly dedicating the future site of the Manti temple, for example); but these sources tend to be second-hand and pretty unreliable.

Moroni himself never names the place where he intends to bury the last few plates which he inherited from Mormon. Joseph Smith's associates--and, arguably, Smith himself--referred to the hill in New York where he retrieved the plates as "Cumorah"; but many Mormons don't believe that this location (sometimes confusingly dubbed "Moroni's Cumorah") is not the same place where the final battle occurred (that location being referred to as "Mormon's Cumorah").

Wikipedia's article on Cumorah is actually pretty decent.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[rameumptom]

Most LDS scholars believe there were two Cumorahs. The first one was probably in Mesoamerica, where Mormon buried all the records of his people, and where Moroni received the plates from his father. This would have been around the time of the 385 AD destruction.

Then, Moroni wandered the land, escaping enemies for decades. It is possible he settled down in a few areas along the way, perhaps able to make a few more plates to inscribe on. Moroni actually gives us three farewells, possibly thinking he would die, or did not have any room on the plates. It appears he may have added a few more to add more words.

Finally, he made it up to New York Cumorah, where he buried the plates.

[Snirilla]

thank you, very informative, made it a bit clearer to me. So the original plates are still buried somewhere in mesoamerica then? Moroni only took with him the abridgements he and his father had made?

[Just_A_Guy]

Assuming that Mesoamerica is indeed the setting for the Book of Mormon events, then yeah.

Got a shovel?

[mnn727]

Who buried the plates where and when?

Wasn't me, I put them in the dishwasher.

-- I couldn't resist.

[skalenfehl]

I tend not to agree with the scholars, but I'm just me. There is only one Hill Cumorah. The same as it was the same Hill Ramah near Ripliancum, the land of many waters (great lakes, finger lakes, etc) where two final great battles took place. I don't claim to know more than learned scholars, but I do take Joseph Smith at his word:

A. Testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith, JSH-1:51-52 “Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth.

Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them..."

B. D&C 128:20 20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!

[Traveler]

If someone asked me to get the plates - I would in all honesty say that I do not know nor do I have any clue where the Nephite's records are. In general it is my impression that if anyone really did know where these records were - they would go get them.

The Traveler

[Vort]

I' m a bit confused, It says that Mormon buried the plates in hill cumorah around 385 AD? Were those the "original" plates he abridged from?

Yes. The "original" plates were called the Large Plates of Nephi, and they were very extensive. One account suggests they comprised "many wagon-loads" of plates. When Mormon hid the plates, he gave his abridgment of Nephite history to his son Moroni.

Then Moroni also says he hid plates between 400 and 421 AD, many years after the battle? Had he taken them out from Hill cumora and then written some more and then then put them back in the hill?

He took them from his father to add to them, then added to them again many years later when he found himself still alive as an old (or at least late middle aged) man -- obviously something he did not anticipate when younger and constantly on the run from his murderous enemies.

Does it ever say that Moroni also buried them in the hill cumoarh? It only says that Mormon did, right?

Actually, I think you have things a bit backward. Mormon said that he hid up all the plates in the hill of Cumorah except "these few plates" that he gave to his son Moroni (apparently meaning the Book of Mormon abridgment; see Mormon 6:6).

Fifteen years later, Moroni writes a heartbreakingly lonely addendum, saying only that he will "hide up the records in the earth", without specifying any further location. About twenty years later, he recovers the plates (at least the Nephite abridgment of his father with his own abridgment of the Jaredite record) and adds the final book of Moroni. Again, he mentions no specific location.

In the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith tells of the events leading to his retrieval of the plates of abridgment. When Moroni first came to Joseph (as a resurrected being, of course), Joseph records, "He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang." That's it; just "deposited". He then goes on to describe the large hill near his house where the plates were buried. I believe he referred to this as the "hill of Cumorah" in other places, but not in scripture.

In fact, the word "Cumorah" appears in scripture only one time outside of the Book of Mormon, in any context. This is in D&C 128:20, as part of a letter from Joseph Smith to the Church as a whole: "And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed."

Outside of direct revelation from God, I think that we have no good way of knowing what physical location the Book of Mormon term "Cumorah" referred to. It has long been assumed that it referred to the drumlin hill in western New York where Joseph retrieved the abridgment, but that is just an assumption. Some have suggested that the term "Cumorah" itself may just have meant something like "the place of records", and so would be applied to any hill or location where the plates were hidden. In this view, a "two-Cumorah" or "n-Cumorah" model becomes possible, if not downright likely.

[cryophil]

My question is, if Moroni was keeping the plates from Joseph Smith by spiritual forces until he was prepared to get them, why did they even have to be buried? Moroni took them back and they are no longer on the earth, according to some histories.

Why didn't God just keep them in heaven until Moroni could have taken them to Joseph Smith. Seems like it would have been no more of a miracle than the force field.

[Guest]

Who buried the plates where and when?

The butler, in the pantry, last Tuesday.

[Just_A_Guy]

My question is, if Moroni was keeping the plates from Joseph Smith by spiritual forces until he was prepared to get them, why did they even have to be buried? Moroni took them back and they are no longer on the earth, according to some histories.

Why didn't God just keep them in heaven until Moroni could have taken them to Joseph Smith. Seems like it would have been no more of a miracle than the force field.

We're on to pretty unknown territory here. I've heard some suggest that Moroni did in fact deposit the plates in New York as a resurrected being. For that matter, I've even heard some people suggest that it's contrary to God's general patterns for Him to do something that humans are perfectly capable of doing and, on this basis, theorize that perhaps God actually gave the plates back at some point when the Church got settled and that perhaps the Church possesses the plates today. (I think that's a long shot, though intriguing.)

I firmly believe that on some level, God reveals Himself to us in the way we have been conditioned to expect Him to do so. Maybe God arranged for Joseph Smith to find the Book of Mormon as a buried treasure in the ground because He knew that Joseph Smith, as a resident of 19th century upstate New York and a participant in the local "buried treasure" (a.k.a. "money digging") craze of the time, would expect to find the book in that manner.