I'm trying to understand 2 Nephi 15:29-30 (part of the Isaiah chapters).

[daplautz]

I recently started a specific study of the book of Isaiah and I am having trouble understanding his imagery in Isaiah 5:29-30 (I am reading out of 2 Nephi 15:29-30). Almost every source I have gone to has given no explanation; they just jump from 2 Nephi 15:28 to 16:1. The only thing I found was in a Book of Mormon study manual that said "Righteous Israel will gather out of the gentile nations. No enemy will be able to stop this great gathering." But I'm not making the connection. I was hoping someone could help me out.

I understood the ensign to the nations part and the prophecies about modern-day transportation (the LeGrand Richards quote helped me out with that), but I don't understand what Isaiah means by those last two verses.

Any ideas?

[Traveler]

I recently started a specific study of the book of Isaiah and I am having trouble understanding his imagery in Isaiah 5:29-30 (I am reading out of 2 Nephi 15:29-30). Almost every source I have gone to has given no explanation; they just jump from 2 Nephi 15:28 to 16:1. The only thing I found was in a Book of Mormon study manual that said "Righteous Israel will gather out of the gentile nations. No enemy will be able to stop this great gathering." But I'm not making the connection. I was hoping someone could help me out.

I understood the ensign to the nations part and the prophecies about modern-day transportation (the LeGrand Richards quote helped me out with that), but I don't understand what Isaiah means by those last two verses.

Any ideas?

There is more to this than meets the eye. Isaiah is both simple and complex. The simplicity is the concept the complexity is in the delivery. This is done for a reason. Part of the complexity allows for application to parallel situations. The symbolism can be understood both in past history and future events to come (Isaiah 46:10) but there is another level. We can also understand this as past and prophesy for our own life’s path through mortality - and other things as well.

In particular the versus you are reading deal with the restoration and the dispensation in which we now live but the same verses also deal with spiritual rebirth of an individual and the spiritual awakening and strength acquired in rebirth. Symbolically a lion is at the top of the food chain and nothing stands up or in reality challenges a lion - to try would be a really stupid mistake.

But we should all view these verses in context - and the first 5 chapters of Isaiah deal with both ruin and rebirth. The final concept or application for this post has to do with the return to covenant with strength and determination. Prior to reaching this experience in our lives we will often feel defeated but having been strengthen by the covenant we become “invincible”. But as you and others seek guidance you may see far more than I.

The Traveler

[Vort]

Modern readers often want to interpret Isaiah by assigning specific, concrete objects or individuals to items mentioned. A=1, B=2. the lion is modern Israel, raising the hand means sending out an air strike, etc. In my opinion, this sort of "equivalence interpretation" is utterly useless.

[skalenfehl]

As Nephi would exhort, "Have ye inquired of the Lord?"

Allow me to give you a few hints:

Read Jacob 5, The allegory of the tame and wild olive trees. This allegory explains the progress of the Lord's work throughout the dispensations (and alludes to the Nephite/Lamanites) until the end.

The more you seriously study the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, the better you will understand Isaiah. Both the BoM and D&C are the best commentaries on Isaiah. Why? Because while one discusses the history of Isaiah's writings, both discuss the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecies.

The verses in question refer to a time in scattering and gathering. In this case, gathering, but only after an "ensign" is raised. Once you determine what this ensign is, you can better understand who is roaring and the metaphors become more meaningful.

One final hint:

D&C 88:84-85

84 Therefore, tarry ye, and labor diligently, that you may be perfected in your ministry to go forth among the Gentiles for the last time, as many as the mouth of the Lord shall name, to bind up the law and seal up the testimony, and to prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come;

85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the first elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall call them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not clean from the blood of this generation.

Ok, last hint: Le Grand Richards' commentary is a huge part of it.

Edited March 28, 2012 by skalenfehl

[skalenfehl]

Isaiah is referring the restoration of the gospel and the speedy gathering of Israel. His metaphors describe what is happening:

28 Whose arrows shall be sharp, and all their bows bent, and their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind, their roaring like a lion.

29 They shall roar like young lions; yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry away safe, and none shall deliver.

30 And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea; and if they look unto the land, behold, darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.

We are living in a time of modern technology. During Isaiah's time, people traveled by horse, chariot, camel, or donkey or by foot. Today, we have cars, airplanes, cell phones, internet, etc. In other words, our hoofs are like flint! Blinding light speed! Wheels like whirlwind. How fast are whirlwinds?? Roaring like lions? Loud and clear and fierce, without question! The gospel is going forth at great speed!!

Who is they? Who will be roaring like young lions? Let's dig into D&C

Section 88

84 Therefore, tarry ye, and labor diligently, that you may be perfected in your ministry to go forth among the Gentiles for the last time, as many as the mouth of the Lord shall name, to bind up the law and seal up the testimony, and to prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come;

85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the first elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall call them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not clean from the blood of this generation.

Finally they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea. Who is "them?" The enemies of Israel! Anyone who fights against Zion! For those who fight against the Lord in the land, the whole world will be a land of darkness. Even heaven will be darkened to them.

The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are the best two commentaries on Isaiah. It will take a lot of reading and praying and pondering and a lot more reading and praying and pondering. And long the way, the Spirit will whisper to you and you will also find help.

Edited March 29, 2012 by skalenfehl
had to write donkey instead of a s s

[rameumptom]

You can read more on this at my blog, where I've discussed the Gospel Doctrine lesson regarding these passages. Hopefully, it will give you more to think about:

Joel's Monastery: Book of Mormon Lesson 10: "He Inviteth All to Come unto Him" 2 Nephi 26-30

[skalenfehl]

Daplautz,

I was reading in the Book of Mormon again last night in 3 Nephi and In chapter 20, the following verses literally jumped out at me. Here Jesus Christ is speaking:

11 Ye remember that I spake unto you, and said that when the words of Isaiah should be fulfilled—behold they are written, ye have them before you, therefore search them—

12 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that when they shall be fulfilled then is the fulfilling of the covenant which the Father hath made unto his people, O house of Israel.

13 And then shall the remnants, which shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the earth, be gathered in from the east and from the west, and from the south and from the north; and they shall be brought to the knowledge of the Lord their God, who hath redeemed them.

14 And the Father hath commanded me that I should give unto you this land, for your inheritance.

15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people—

16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

17 Thy hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.

Edited March 29, 2012 by skalenfehl

[Gargantuan]

These verses are talking about the people of Lehi who are a remnant in this land(and especially 16) who shall go among the gentiles of this land if they do not repent as young lion among the flocks of sheep.

[skalenfehl]

You are absolutely correct! :)

[skalenfehl]

These verses are talking about the people of Lehi...who shall go among the gentiles...

Final thought:

People of Lehi=Book of Mormon=a marvelous work and a wonder=restoration=gathering of Israel=missionary work...

Do you see it?

To understand Isaiah is to understand that he prophesied with types and symbols what was to happen. His writings primarily focused on:

-the coming of Jesus Christ, his birth!

-His mission/sacrifice/atonement/resurrection

-His work as typified by the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees as told by Jacob (scattering and gathering of (the ten tribes) Israel/a marvelous work and a wonder/the Book of Mormon (stick of Joseph)

-The coming of the millennial Christ

The way to truly understand Isaiah's writings is through the spirit of prophecy. Every man and woman on the earth can have the spirit of prophecy.

Edited March 31, 2012 by skalenfehl