Do you agree with these statements?

[bytor2112]

Traveler, I'm not sure if I understand this statement in the way you are explaining it but in the way I'm reading it, I do not agree with this description. For one thing Trinitarians believe in one God and any one of the persons of the Trinity can be called God. The three persons of the Trinity have an equal relationship with each other. If I were to compare the relationship between Tiberius Caesar and Herod Antipas (rulers during Christ's crucifixion) I would say that Caesar was greater than Herod because he was Emperor of the Roman Empire while Herod was a Tetrarch of Galilee. This governing relationship cannot be compared to the Trinity relationship because God is God, he cannot be a lesser God and greater God at the same time, because he is the one and only God.

M.

Well.....not according to Jesus ( found in the Book of John)

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Edited April 8, 2012 by bytor2112

[Maureen]

Well.....not according to Jesus ( found in the Book of John)

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Due to Christ's human nature, the Father was indeed greater than Jesus. But through Christ's death and resurrection, the Father gave Jesus the glory that he once had before his incarnation. Before his incarnate state and after his resurrection, Jesus' glory was and is equal to the Father's.

M.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Maureen

[Maureen]

Regarding the term worship. I think when we discuss worshiping God, we see the activity as very different than when we use it with common objects, ie "I worship the ground you walk on". With the LDS News article, I believe the article was articulating to readers (especially non-LDS readers) what Christ means to LDS. So whether you are Catholic, Protestant or LDS, you all understand what is being conveyed when someone is discussing the term "worship", when talking about a diety. My interest in this thread was wandering if members on this forum agreed with what this article was conveying to the non-LDS audience that maybe reading it.

M.

[bytor2112]

Due to Christ's human nature, the Father was indeed greater than Jesus. But through Christ's death and resurrection, the Father gave Jesus the glory that he once had before his incarnation. Before his incarnate state and after his resurrection, Jesus' glory was and is equal to the Father's.

M.

Scripture support?

[Maureen]

Scripture support?

When Jesus had finished saying these things, he looked upward to heaven and said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that your Son may glorify you – just as you have given him authority over all humanity, so that he may give eternal life to everyone you have given him. Now this is eternal life – that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. I glorified you on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created. (John 17:1-5) (NET Bible)

M.

[Guest]

I don't understand how that is support? It's another scripture that sounds to me like God talking to himself, from a trinitarian standpoint.

[mordorbund]

The question was, "Where does it say in the Bible that Jesus and the Father were equals before Jesus' birth?"

The answer is John 17. Pay attention to the word "glory". Jesus had glory before he was born, and he was asking to be clothed in that glory again by finishing his mission - meaning there is some glory that he gave up which he would again receive.

Regarding a Trinitarian Jesus talking to himself, you need to remember that most Trinitarians believe that they are 3 persons with the same essence or being. The idea that they are 3 manifestations of the same person/being is known as modalism and is generally considered a heresy (note in the proper definition "person" and "being" are not interchangeable).

[bytor2112]

When Jesus had finished saying these things, he looked upward to heaven and said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that your Son may glorify you – just as you have given him authority over all humanity, so that he may give eternal life to everyone you have given him. Now this is eternal life – that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. I glorified you on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created. (John 17:1-5) (NET Bible)

M.

The great intercessory prayer does not support your comments...at all. Try again?

[Maureen]

The great intercessory prayer does not support your comments...at all. Try again?

Why not?

M.

[Maureen]

Here's another one:

You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had, who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature. He humbled himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death – even death on a cross! As a result God exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow – in heaven and on earth and under the earth – and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:5-11) (NET Bible)

M.

[Maureen]

I don't understand how that is support? It's another scripture that sounds to me like God talking to himself, from a trinitarian standpoint.

Why? How do you interpret John 17:1-5? Here is the KJV:

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

M.

[Traveler]

Why? How do you interpret John 17:1-5? Here is the KJV:

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

M.

It is also written in scripture that we will be resurrected in glory.

I John 3:2 indicates that our glory will be like G-d’s glory - Thus if the Father and the Son are equal we also will be equal with them - see also John 17:22.

BTW the reference in John 17 that you use to prove that Jesus and the Father are equal is in the same context that says we will also be equal in the same manner that they are.

The Traveler

Edited April 9, 2012 by Traveler

[Maureen]

I believe that God's children will share in his glory, but I do not believe that that will make God's children equal with God.

M.

[bytor2112]

Maureen, we believe that Jesus was "like unto God" (Moses 3:24) in the pre-existence....He was Jehovah, the God of the Old testament,under the direction of the Father...creator of worlds without number and had power, dominion and Glory...BUT, he is not God the Father. In the prayer he is speaking as though the work HE had been sent here to do had been accomplished and was asking the Lord to restore Him to the state he formerly enjoyed before HE came into mortality to work out his own salvation and make salvation/mercy available for all of us.

Edited April 9, 2012 by bytor2112

[Maureen]

Maureen, we believe that Jesus was "like unto God" (Moses 3:24) in the pre-existence....He was Jehovah, the God of the Old testament,under the direction of the Father...creator of worlds without number and had power, dominion and Glory...BUT, he is not God the Father. In the prayer he is speaking as though the work HE had been sent here to do had been accomplished and was asking the Lord to restore Him to the state he formerly enjoyed before HE came into mortality to work out his own salvation and make salvation/mercy available for all of us.

Does this mean bytor, that you personally do not agree with the 2nd statement that says:

For Latter-day Saints, being a Christian means being a disciple of Jesus Christ, loving and worshiping Him above all.

M.

[NextGenGamer]

Off topic question: Would you rather have an employee who does not steal from the cash register because he knows there is a security camera pointed at it or the employee who doesn't steal from the cash register because he thinks it's not the right thing to do?

[Maureen]

Off topic question: Would you rather have an employee who does not steal from the cash register because he knows there is a security camera pointed at it or the employee who doesn't steal from the cash register because he thinks it's not the right thing to do?

Hello NextGenGamer! What made you pick this thread to ask your OT question? :)

M.

[NextGenGamer]

It was the most active haha

[Traveler]

I believe that God's children will share in his glory, but I do not believe that that will make God's children equal with God.

M.

Hmmmm. The scriptures are quite clear that the glory G-d gave to Jesus made them one. It is you that said being one made them equal. Anciently the word "one" carried the meaning of equal so if you are right there is another problem in scripture that forces you to now play word games. To demonstrate this even more lets go back to John (the same Apostle you quoted to prove Jesus and the Father are equal)

John Chapter 10 verses 30 - 33

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blashemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself G-d.

This clearly show that the ancient understanding of being one with G-d required that we are G-d. The meaning of being one was to be equal as you initially argued.

I can understand that many may want to interpret scripture to match what they personally believe - But to change the meaning of the same scripture from the same source is without question playing word games - and John clearly shows that to claim to be one was a claim to be equal at the time and place where the scriptures you quoted were written.

The Traveler

[Timpman]

The linked article is good COMMENTARY. Please stop trying to get a "yes" or "no" answer about those two statements and let us expound our beliefs.

God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's” (D&C 130:22)...

Heavenly Father is the Supreme Creator. Through Jesus Christ, He created heaven and earth and all things in them...

Our Father in Heaven wants us to dwell with Him eternally. His work and glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). In order to make this possible, He prepared the plan of salvation. He sent His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to loose the bands of death and atone for the sins of the world....

God the Father

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer. Each of these titles points to the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father.

Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved. His subsequent resurrection prepared the way for every person to overcome physical death as well. These events are called the Atonement. In short, Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. For that, He is very literally our Savior and Redeemer.

In the future Jesus Christ will return to reign on earth in peace for a thousand years. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and He will be our Lord forever.

Jesus Christ

And here is The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles:

The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles

[Maureen]

Traveler, regarding Post #46 - My comments of equality are in regards to Jesus (God the Son) and God the Father. Jesus is not the Father's creation, he is God the Father's equal because he shares in the Father's divinity. This statement:

I believe that God's children will share in his glory, but I do not believe that that will make God's children equal with God.

...is regarding the rest of mankind (us), not Jesus. We are God's creation, he is our Creator, therefore we are not equals. God is greater than us. He wishes for us to share in His glory, but this divine inheritance will not make us equal with God.

M.

[Maureen]

...Please stop trying to get a "yes" or "no" answer about those two statements and let us expound our beliefs....

I never asked for just a "yes" or "no" answer. I asked: Do you believe these statement are true personally for you and do you believe your church (LDS) teaches this? Please elaborate if you can.

Timpman, you gave descriptions of God the Father and Jesus Christ, but you didn't answer if you agreed with the statements provided in the LDS Newsroom article. Do you give Jesus your devotion and do you worship Jesus above all? Do you believe these statements truly convey what is true for LDS?

M.

[Timpman]

Do you give Jesus your devotion and do you worship Jesus above all? Do you believe these statements truly convey what is true for LDS?

I think you are trying to catch us in a snare. You are being very civil about it, and I appreciate that. But this is a fruitless discussion. Can I ask you a question - do you believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God?

[Maureen]

I think you are trying to catch us in a snare. You are being very civil about it, and I appreciate that.

I hope that I can assure you that I am being sincere about my questions. I have had discussions with LDS on this forum about their beliefs regarding worshiping God, specificially worshiping the Father and Jesus. I took away from past discussions that some LDS believe that Jesus can and should be worshipped, others feelings were that the Father is to be worshipped, while Jesus is revered, praised, loved, etc but is not given the same type of worship that the Father is given. The article I linked, is information from the LDS Church conveying to other non-LDS readers what they believe about God. Those two particular statements that I'm curious about, could convey to other non-LDS readers that all members of the LDS church embrace the belief that Jesus is to be worshipped, just as the Father is to be worshipped. For Catholics and Protestants this is very normal, since being Trinitarian, we believe Jesus is God, therefore is to be worshipped. But because LDS do not view God (Father and Son) in the same light as non-LDS, I was curious as to how members on this forum would react to those statements that I took from that LDS Newsroom article. Do you personally agree with them, and why or why not?

But this is a fruitless discussion.

It is not fruitless for me, people are answering my questions.

Can I ask you a question - do you believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God?

No, I do not believe that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I do see certain messages in the BofM that is reflective of similar scripture found in the Bible; but the Book of Mormon on its own, I do not believe is the word of God.

M.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Maureen

[Magen_Avot]

I believe that what Timpman was saying was that the discussion was fruitless because your questions were asked with a hidden agenda to catch members in a cross-fire of your 'planned' responses. And that this type of "discussion" does not normally invite the spirit. Therefore it is pointless.

But I think you are just trying to weaken the testimonies of members here. It is my opinion, of course, but it is mine to have.

Regardless, I think the best answer is found in the eleventh article of faith:

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

As you pointed out, some members say we worhship Christ also, and others say the Father only. We should consider true doctrine. I would ask (in context to LDS theology): Where does Christ say that we should worship Him (Jesus)? Doctrinally speaking...

Any modern revelation say we "worship" Christ?

This may help a little. It is at least based in doctrine:Worship

No doubt we should look to the scriptures and prayer in considering the true doctrine of Christ concerning worship.