Do you agree with these statements?

[Maureen]

I believe that what Timpman was saying was that the discussion was fruitless because your questions were asked with a hidden agenda to catch members in a cross-fire of your 'planned' responses. And that this type of "discussion" does not normally invite the spirit. Therefore it is pointless.

But I think you are just trying to weaken the testimonies of members here. It is my opinion, of course, but it is mine to have.

That's too bad that that is how you see my intent. Most of my responses to those that have answered my questions is by Thanking them for their post. Some of my responses have been asking for clarification. Traveler commented on what he believes Trinitarians believe, to which I responded with my own views, since I'm a trinitarian. Do you believe my responses have been negative?

Regardless, I think the best answer is found in the eleventh article of faith:

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

The best answer? It doesn't really answer my questions.

As you pointed out, some members say we worhship Christ also, and others say the Father only. We should consider true doctrine. I would ask (in context to LDS theology): Where does Christ say that we should worship Him (Jesus)? Doctrinally speaking...

Any modern revelation say we "worship" Christ?

This may help a little. It is at least based in doctrine:Worship

No doubt we should look to the scriptures and prayer in considering the true doctrine of Christ concerning worship.

Here are some statements and scripture that I've found which I had contributed in other threads discussing worship:

We honor Him, we worship Him, we love Him as our Redeemer, the great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New Testament. The entire thrust of the testimony of the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants declares our living Lord before whom we kneel in humility and faith. (Gordon B. Hinckley, "A Testimony of the Son of God", Ensign, Dec. 2002, 2–5) A Testimony of the Son of God - Ensign Dec. 2002

Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him. (3Nephi 11:17)

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. (2 Nephi 25:29)

Latter-day Saints center their worship in, and direct their prayers to, God the Eternal Father. This, as with all things – sermons, testimonies, prayers, and sacraments or ordinances-they do in the name of Jesus Christ….. The Saints also worship Christ the Son as they acknowledge him as the source of truth and redemption, as the light and life of the world, as the way to the Father….. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, page 726)

M.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Maureen

[Guest]

Here are some statements and scripture that I've found which I had contributed in other threads discussing worship:

We honor Him, we worship Him, we love Him as our Redeemer, the great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New Testament. The entire thrust of the testimony of the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants declares our living Lord before whom we kneel in humility and faith. (Gordon B. Hinckley, "A Testimony of the Son of God", Ensign, Dec. 2002, 2–5) A Testimony of the Son of God - Ensign Dec. 2002

Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him. (3Nephi 11:17)

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. (2 Nephi 25:29)

Latter-day Saints center their worship in, and direct their prayers to, God the Eternal Father. This, as with all things – sermons, testimonies, prayers, and sacraments or ordinances-they do in the name of Jesus Christ….. The Saints also worship Christ the Son as they acknowledge him as the source of truth and redemption, as the light and life of the world, as the way to the Father….. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, page 726)

M.

Now that. All that. I agree with.

The thing out of the LDS Newsroom is great discussion point when taken into context to which audience it was intended and to what purpose it was written for. I don't know either, so I can't agree/disagree with what was said.

It's like when I went to the county fair last weekend, some woman that had an exhibit for some church (I think it was Jehovah's Witnesses, but I can't be sure) asked me - are you 100% sure you are going to heaven? So, I'm at a county fair, at an exhibit with lots of people - it was obviously not the time nor the place to be too picky about what she was asking, so I answered simply, "No, I don't think anybody can be sure they're going to heaven" and left it at that. I could have answered the proper LDS answer of... Plan of Salvation with the Atonement and the three degrees of heaven... etc. etc... but, not the proper audience nor intent of the answer, so if you would have posted that answer here on lds.net and asked members to agree or disagree it would have come into pages and pages of long discussions over it when simply, my answer only meant to address the question in a general sense without going into specifics of what heaven truly means.

I can see how the LDS Newsroom threw those statements out there to simply say, hey guys, we're Mormons and like the other Christians out there, we hold that Jesus Christ is God without going into nitpicky specifics about it.

Edited April 10, 2012 by anatess

[Traveler]

Traveler, regarding Post #46 - My comments of equality are in regards to Jesus (God the Son) and God the Father. Jesus is not the Father's creation, he is God the Father's equal because he shares in the Father's divinity. This statement:

I believe that God's children will share in his glory, but I do not believe that that will make God's children equal with God.

...is regarding the rest of mankind (us), not Jesus. We are God's creation, he is our Creator, therefore we are not equals. God is greater than us. He wishes for us to share in His glory, but this divine inheritance will not make us equal with God.

M.

I hope you not think me critical but rather someone that ask questions because something is not making sense.

As we deal with the scriptures it is obvious that G-d takes no glory exclusive to himself in being our creator. The point is that the scriptures say that we are in every way one and receive all the glory that the Father gave to Jesus.

Thus I see you playing a word game with equal. You can do this because the scriptures do not use the word equal to describe the Father and the Son. Thus I see the concept of equal being a creation of man - not G-d.

The point I intend to make is to the understanding that G-d uses to describe the divine relationship between he (the Father) and Jesus (the Son). What G-d intends that we understand is that they are one. I assume that one means one in every way that can be conceived. But G-d tells us that it is his intent that we are one with him and Jesus in the exact same way and in every way that they are one together.

This tells me that it is counter to the teachings of G-d for man to discriminate our relationship with the Father as being any different than what we understand concerning the relationship of the Father to the Son. I see your efforts as a rebellion directly against what G-d tells us in scripture. This I see as a definite flaw and incompleteness in the worship of G-d. Even Jesus tells us that the worship of G-d must include that we love G-d - but there is a second part to love our neighbor - we cannot correctly worship G-d without also loving our neighbor

Also - when we speak of creation, this is something that we can not only observe from a scientific stand point but an action that we can participate in. The political correct term is call pro-creation and in marriage a man and a woman form a partnership with G-d to create human life. Though you say G-d is the creator and man is the created - I believe you are not whole or complete in your understanding. For every human that we can account for there is no creation without a father and a mother and as such that father and mother become creators with G-d thus sharing with G-d the very glory of creation. Which should not be a surprise because G-d said we are to share in all his glory.

Anciently it was believe that one must be married to be one with G-d - and the scriptures use the covenant of marriage as a type of relationship we must have with G-d as part of true worship.

You have every right to your beliefs - but from what I have read on this thread and the answers to my questions - it appears that you have diminished you worship of G-d by substituting words created by man rather than the simple very straight forward but spiritually dependent concepts given to us from G-d.

The Traveler

Edited April 10, 2012 by Traveler

[Timpman]

I hope that I can assure you that I am being sincere about my questions. I have had discussions with LDS on this forum about their beliefs regarding worshiping God, specificially worshiping the Father and Jesus. I took away from past discussions that some LDS believe that Jesus can and should be worshipped, others feelings were that the Father is to be worshipped, while Jesus is revered, praised, loved, etc but is not given the same type of worship that the Father is given.

I apologize for misreading you. After thinking about it more, I see that it is something that some Latter-day Saints may misunderstand.

To summarize D&C 93:7–19:

This record certifies that Christ was “in the beginning” with the Father; that he is “the Redeemer of the world,” and the light and life of men; that he “dwelt in the flesh” as “the Only Begotten of the Father”; that in his mortal progression “he received not of the fulness at the first, but continued from grace to grace”; and that finally, in the resurrection, “he received a fulness of the glory of the Father; And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.”

Then the Lord said: “I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness."

How to Worship - Ensign Dec. 1971 - ensign

It's very interesting that is says "know what you worship." So I then found 3 Nephi 11:15-17

15 And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come.

16 And when they had all gone forth and had witnessed for themselves, they did cry out with one accord, saying:

17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.

3 Nephi 11 

So it is very appropriate to worship Jesus Christ. I can say that I do agree with the two statements you originally posted:

1) Jesus Christ — not Moses, Paul or Joseph Smith — is the object of Mormons’ devotion and worship.

2) For Latter-day Saints, being a Christian means being a disciple of Jesus Christ, loving and worshiping Him above all.

In number 2, we just need to keep in mind that worshiping Jesus Christ necessarily means that we are also worshiping the Father.

[Timpman]

Oh, you already referenced that scripture. Nice. And those other references are awesome. Thanks for pointing those out. This is good to clarify.

[Traveler]

...

It's like when I went to the county fair last weekend, some woman that had an exhibit for some church (I think it was Jehovah's Witnesses, but I can't be sure) asked me - are you 100% sure you are going to heaven?

...

I believe such questions are similar and have the same purpose as those generated anciently with intent to "catch" Jesus and the Apostles. I have answered such questions in the past with something like. "I live by faith as I have been insturcted - have you not been instructed yet that you must have faith rather than being fooled by the temptation to pretend to be 100% sure?"

Such answere do not produce immediate converts but they usually take a less agressive in what-ever conversation is able to continue.

The Traveler

[Magen_Avot]

We honor Him, we worship Him, we love Him as our Redeemer, the great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New Testament. The entire thrust of the testimony of the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants declares our living Lord before whom we kneel in humility and faith. (Gordon B. Hinckley, "A Testimony of the Son of God", Ensign, Dec. 2002, 2–5) A Testimony of the Son of God - Ensign Dec. 2002

Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him. (3Nephi 11:17)

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. (2 Nephi 25:29)

Latter-day Saints center their worship in, and direct their prayers to, God the Eternal Father. This, as with all things – sermons, testimonies, prayers, and sacraments or ordinances-they do in the name of Jesus Christ….. The Saints also worship Christ the Son as they acknowledge him as the source of truth and redemption, as the light and life of the world, as the way to the Father….. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, page 726)

M.

Did... you just answer your questions?

[Timpman]

Maureen, I really apologize for the misunderstanding. I have become a bit defensive due to attacks on Mormons, partly due to disagreement regarding the nature of God. Do you really believe the non-biblical Nicene Creed? :) I think the part about being "of one substance with the Father" is not true.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Timpman
I hope no one saw that. It was rude.

[Guest]

Did... you just answer your questions?

My understanding is that, Maureen was not asking what our doctrines are. She's pretty well-informed of them having been in this here forum for quite some time. Her question was centered on whether WE - the lds people on this here forum - agree with LDS Newsroom's statement. Because, you know, if the LDS newsroom was spouting off falsehood it does not really bode well for us lds folks...

[Maureen]

...Do you really believe the non-biblical Nicene Creed? :) I think the part about being "of one substance with the Father" is not true.

I do accept the Nicene Creed, although I do not think that what it states is non-biblical. :)

I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons that are God. I believe that there is only one God; therefore I conclude that these three persons must share in the same divinity, or essense, or nature, or being - one God (being) in three persons.

M.

[Maureen]

Did... you just answer your questions?

Not really - anatess is correct; I was asking for your personal opinion or belief about how you see Jesus, to see if you what was written in the article are correct statements about what LDS members actually believe.

The statements and LDS scripture that I provided (in green) are what I believe the LDS church (read organization) accepts as true. But I think you might be surprised by how many members do not interpret those statements or scripture the same. From a previous thread (many months ago), some members prefered to accept an Apostle's view regarding worshiping Jesus over a Prophet's view. Personally for me, I see the LDS church as heading in the direction of teaching members that to worship Jesus is good without any distinction between the worship that is given to the Father. I believe that if you worship Jesus, you also worship the Father.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. (John 14:6-11)

M.

[bytor2112]

Does this mean bytor, that you personally do not agree with the 2nd statement that says:

For Latter-day Saints, being a Christian means being a disciple of Jesus Christ, loving and worshiping Him above all.

M.

Yes.....

I believe in Christ; he is my King!

With all my heart to him I'll sing;

I'll raise my voice in praise and joy,

In grand amens my tongue employ.

I believe in Christ; he is God's Son.

On earth to dwell his soul did come.

He healed the sick; the dead he raised.

Good works were his; his name be praised.

I believe in Christ-- my Lord, my God!

My feet he plants on gospel sod.

I'll worship him with all my might;

He is the source of truth and light.

I believe in Christ; he ransoms me.

From Satan's grasp he sets me free,

And I shall live with joy and love

In his eternal courts above.

I believe in Christ; he stands supreme!

From him I'll gain my fondest dream;

And while I strive through grief and pain,

His voice is heard: "Ye shall obtain."

I believe in Christ; so come what may,

With him I'll stand in that great day

When on this earth he comes again

To rule among the sons of men.

[Timpman]

I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons that are God. I believe that there is only one God; therefore I conclude that these three persons must share in the same divinity, or essense, or nature, or being - one God (being) in three persons.

The Nicene Creed insists that they are one substance. What makes far more sense is that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one in purpose and mission, but not one in substance - they are three distinct, physical beings. Jesus prayed for his disciples saying:

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Does that mean that Jesus wanted his disciples to be lumped together in one mass? And was Jesus actually praying to himself?

[beefche]

The Nicene Creed insists that they are one substance. What makes far more sense is that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one in purpose and mission, but not one in substance - they are three distinct, physical beings. Jesus prayed for his disciples saying:

Does that mean that Jesus wanted his disciples to be lumped together in one mass? And was Jesus actually praying to himself?

No, you are thinking of modalism.

Think of it this way (it's how I understand the trinity): God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are of a different species than humans. They are made out of different material than humans. That material is what makes them Divine and Glorious and God. Thus, since they are of the same material, they are One.

I know that is very, very simplistic and not exactly how the trinity is viewed, but that is how I understand it.

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by Maureen

Does this mean bytor, that you personally do not agree with the 2nd statement that says:

For Latter-day Saints, being a Christian means being a disciple of Jesus Christ, loving and worshiping Him above all.

M.

Yes.....

I believe in Christ; he is my King!

With all my heart to him I'll sing;

I'll raise my voice in praise and joy,

In grand amens my tongue employ.

I believe in Christ; he is God's Son.

On earth to dwell his soul did come.

He healed the sick; the dead he raised.

Good works were his; his name be praised.

I believe in Christ-- my Lord, my God!

My feet he plants on gospel sod.

I'll worship him with all my might;

He is the source of truth and light.

I believe in Christ; he ransoms me.

From Satan's grasp he sets me free,

And I shall live with joy and love

In his eternal courts above.

I believe in Christ; he stands supreme!

From him I'll gain my fondest dream;

And while I strive through grief and pain,

His voice is heard: "Ye shall obtain."

I believe in Christ; so come what may,

With him I'll stand in that great day

When on this earth he comes again

To rule among the sons of men.

Hi bytor, please forgive my pickiness, but my question was "does this mean you do not agree with the 2nd statement?" You said "Yes" and added the poem, which seems to actually say you agree with the statement. Could you clarify?

M.

[Timpman]

No, you are thinking of modalism.

The English translation of the Latin Rite version says:

"I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,

the Only Begotten Son of God,

born of the Father before all ages.

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;

through him all things were made."

Ruthenian Catholic Church: "Light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made."

Oriental Orthodox Churches:

"Light of Light, very God of very God ,

begotten, not made ,

being of the same substance with the Father;

and by whom all things were made"

Anglican Communion: "Being of one substance with the Father"

Lutheran churches: "being of one substance with the Father"

Presbyterian churches: "begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father"

So it's in the Nicene Creed.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Timpman
Fixed a tag that was messing it up.

[Timpman]

I'll take the liberty of answering for bytor2112. The song "I Believe in Christ" includes "I'll worship him with all my might;" so it seems to make sense that he DOES agree with statement 2 and was affirming it with that song.

[Vort]

I'll take the liberty of answering for bytor2112. The song "I Believe in Christ" includes "I'll worship him with all my might;" so it seems to make sense that he DOES agree with statement 2 and was affirming it with that song.

Worth noting that this poem was written by the same man who, as an apostle, gave a speech delineating the difference between worshiping the Father and worshiping the Son.

[beefche]

The English translation of the Latin Rite version says:

"I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,

the Only Begotten Son of God,

born of the Father before all ages.

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;

through him all things were made."

Ruthenian Catholic Church: "Light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made."

Oriental Orthodox Churches:

"Light of Light, very God of very God ,

begotten, not made ,

being of the same substance with the Father;

and by whom all things were made"

Anglican Communion: "Being of one substance with the Father"

Lutheran churches: "being of one substance with the Father"

Presbyterian churches: "begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father"

So it's in the Nicene Creed.

For your reading:

Sabellianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/43972-son-god-3.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/learn-about-mormon-church/29985-trinity.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/36775-trinity-revisited.html

Those are just a few threads and other sites that explains the Trinity.

[Timpman]

Thanks beefche. It's more complicated that I thought. I'll drop this issue because I have sort of hijacked the thread.

[Maureen]

I hope you not think me critical but rather someone that ask questions because something is not making sense.

I don't see any question marks in the rest of your post. :)

As we deal with the scriptures it is obvious that G-d takes no glory exclusive to himself in being our creator. The point is that the scriptures say that we are in every way one and receive all the glory that the Father gave to Jesus.

Can you please provide scripture references?

Thus I see you playing a word game with equal.

I don't know why you think I'm playing a game. I use words just like you do Traveler, to communicate. And in a forum, words are the only way I can communicate on what I believe.

You can do this because the scriptures do not use the word equal to describe the Father and the Son. Thus I see the concept of equal being a creation of man - not G-d.

I disagree – I can find scripture that uses the English word equal and scriptures that convey an equal status.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

The point I intend to make is to the understanding that G-d uses to describe the divine relationship between he (the Father) and Jesus (the Son). What G-d intends that we understand is that they are one. I assume that one means one in every way that can be conceived.

I agree, understanding that context must be used to differentiate between the “ways that can be conceived.”

But G-d tells us that it is his intent that we are one with him and Jesus in the exact same way and in every way that they are one together.

I can see that God would wish us to be in a oneness of unity with Him and Jesus. But I do not believe it is possible for us to be one with God through our nature, he is divine, we are human, he is infinite, we are finite, he is righteous, and we are sinners.

This tells me that it is counter to the teachings of G-d for man to discriminate our relationship with the Father as being any different than what we understand concerning the relationship of the Father to the Son. I see your efforts as a rebellion directly against what G-d tells us in scripture. This I see as a definite flaw and incompleteness in the worship of G-d. Even Jesus tells us that the worship of G-d must include that we love G-d - but there is a second part to love our neighbor - we cannot correctly worship G-d without also loving our neighbor.

I disagree. Before the beginning, only God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) existed – that alone makes our relationship with God very different than the relationship the persons of the Godhead (Trinity) have with each other. God is existence itself, we exist because of God.

Also - when we speak of creation, this is something that we can not only observe from a scientific stand point but an action that we can participate in. The political correct term is call pro-creation and in marriage a man and a woman form a partnership with G-d to create human life. Though you say G-d is the creator and man is the created - I believe you are not whole or complete in your understanding. For every human that we can account for there is no creation without a father and a mother and as such that father and mother become creators with G-d thus sharing with G-d the very glory of creation. Which should not be a surprise because G-d said we are to share in all his glory.

I do not disagree that we share in God’s glory and I agree that we share in creation because as you have pointed out, we have the ability to procreate. But our ability to procreate was given to us by God, our creator. We are still a created being, whether we procreate or not.

Anciently it was believe that one must be married to be one with G-d - and the scriptures use the covenant of marriage as a type of relationship we must have with G-d as part of true worship.

I see marriage and family as something good that pleases God, but I don’t see marriage necessary for worship.

You have every right to your beliefs - but from what I have read on this thread and the answers to my questions - it appears that you have diminished you worship of G-d by substituting words created by man rather than the simple very straight forward but spiritually dependent concepts given to us from G-d.

Words are what we use to communicate. We use words to convey to others how we think, what we feel. Words are what we read, when looking at scripture. If scripture is God’s way of communicating his thoughts to us, then we need to use them the best way we can to try to understand what he wants us to know. No human being can understand God “whole or completely”, not even you Traveler. We seek after God with our spirits and share how we feel about God with words to others. We aren’t perfect but God loves us and seeks after us also, despite our imperfections.

M.

[Maureen]

The Nicene Creed insists that they are one substance. What makes far more sense is that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one in purpose and mission, but not one in substance - they are three distinct, physical beings. Jesus prayed for his disciples saying:

Does that mean that Jesus wanted his disciples to be lumped together in one mass? And was Jesus actually praying to himself?

Timpman, you are correct that the word substance is used to describe God. Others words could also be used like, essense, being, nature, etc. Trinitarians use the words person and being to describe how Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons yet still one being. So when we think of Jesus praying in the garden, we know that Jesus (God the Son) was praying to God the Father.

When Jesus speaks of his followers being one like he and his Father are one, he is speaking of being united together. Depending on context, we must differeniate between what the message is. Are scriptures describing God's nature or are scriptures describing God's relationship with us?

M.

[bytor2112]

Hi bytor, please forgive my pickiness, but my question was "does this mean you do not agree with the 2nd statement?" You said "Yes" and added the poem, which seems to actually say you agree with the statement. Could you clarify?

M.

I agree....yes

[Timpman]

Trinitarians use the words person and being to describe how Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons yet still one being. So when we think of Jesus praying in the garden, we know that Jesus (God the Son) was praying to God the Father.

So how is that so different from what we Mormons believe? Do you believe that Jesus has a body of flesh and bones?

[Timpman]

So are you saying that each of the three persons are comprised of the same type of matter? If we were to see the Father and the Son, would we see two separate person side by side? And if we could see the Holy Ghost (perhaps in the form of a dove), would that be a third separate person so that we see three separate persons?