Living Without Offense

[StrawberryFields]

<div class='quotemain'>

I didn't say all people leave because they are offended I said some.

I'll try not to beat a dead horse, but SF you never gave any indication that you believe there could be other reasons for members to leave, other than being offended.

NO? Check out my first post in the thread which is number seven.

"I know quite a few LDS people who stopped going to church because they were offended. To put this in a non-religious point of view think of some reasons why some people who were once important to you are no longer important.."

[shanstress70]

SF, I'm sorry if I offended, ironically in this thread.

The reason I believe that LDS would prefer to think someone left bc of being offended, is bc then it is the fault of the person who left, bc of this argument that if you're offended, you choose to be offended. And that same little dig you made about having bad habits is also what some LDS like to believe... bc once again it places the blame on the person leaving, and has nothing to do with the church.

And yes, I acknowledged that certainly people must leave bc they are offended, but I just don't know any. The people I know left bc of doctrinal issues. That is a fact.

I was totally shocked to read this statement from you: "If you believe that this is what LDS people do then maybe you should not be here, you have nothing positive to offer."

I have nothing positive to offer? I would think you would have a different attitude than this. Oh well, this makes me sad, but I'll try not to be offended.

I thought it was OK for people to have different beliefs... even if you disagree with the point I was making in this thread, why would you say something so cold like this? Just not like you...

[StrawberryFields]

SF, I'm sorry if I offended, ironically in this thread.

The reason I believe that LDS would prefer to think someone left bc of being offended, is bc then it is the fault of the person who left, bc of this argument that if you're offended, you choose to be offended. And that same little dig you made about having bad habits is also what some LDS like to believe... bc once again it places the blame on the person leaving, and has nothing to do with the church.

And yes, I acknowledged that certainly people must leave bc they are offended, but I just don't know any. The people I know left bc of doctrinal issues. That is a fact.

I was totally shocked to read this statement from you: "If you believe that this is what LDS people do then maybe you should not be here, you have nothing positive to offer."

I have nothing positive to offer? I would think you would have a different attitude than this. Oh well, this makes me sad, but I'll try not to be offended.

I thought it was OK for people to have different beliefs... even if you disagree with the point I was making in this thread, why would you say something so cold like this? Just not like you...

Yeah not much like me.

I will be sending you a PM.

[begood2]

I have a very big goal here these days of not offending LDS on this forum, so I'm walking a fine line. But as strongly as some of you feel about people leaving bc they were offended, I strongly feel that some LDS like to believe that is why people leave. It's just a neater little package that they can whisk away from their minds. If they considered the alternative - that people actually leave bc they realize that the LDS church goes against so many things that they hold to be true and important - they may actually begin to question their own beliefs. But that's just me! :)

I won't go into these things that made me disbelieve, as I've done that in the past so many times, but there are clearly issues that I never felt comfortable with even when I converted to the church some years ago. Missionaries and members always tried to dismiss those issues, but I was never OK with them. I should not have converted, thinking back, but was searching for some void in my life. Perhaps I'm a rare case.

Shanstress,

I don't think it is so much a matter of does it offend or not offend, but how we chose to deal with the offense. If something offends you and you look the other way and pretend that it never happened....do you think that the the person committing the offense knows that they have done something offensive? Maybe not......that's why I feel that the offender should be told that what they are doing is offensive to you....but it should be done with a clear head and in a non-confrontational manner.

I have never once gone to forum and told the majority of its members that a good many of their beliefs were wrong as you have done so time times in the past.

The reasons this post offended me is because it sounds like your saying that some of us are so stupid that we must plug our ears or make up excuses as to why others have left the church, because if we used our minds then we would more than likely leave too.

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

I have a very big goal here these days of not offending LDS on this forum, so I'm walking a fine line. But as strongly as some of you feel about people leaving bc they were offended, I strongly feel that some LDS like to believe that is why people leave. It's just a neater little package that they can whisk away from their minds. If they considered the alternative - that people actually leave bc they realize that the LDS church goes against so many things that they hold to be true and important - they may actually begin to question their own beliefs. But that's just me! :)

I won't go into these things that made me disbelieve, as I've done that in the past so many times, but there are clearly issues that I never felt comfortable with even when I converted to the church some years ago. Missionaries and members always tried to dismiss those issues, but I was never OK with them. I should not have converted, thinking back, but was searching for some void in my life. Perhaps I'm a rare case.

Shanstress,

I don't think it is so much a matter of does it offend or not offend, but how we chose to deal with the offense. If something offends you and you look the other way and pretend that it never happened....do you think that the the person committing the offense knows that they have done something offensive? Maybe not......that's why I feel that the offender should be told that what they are doing is offensive to you....but it should be done with a clear head and in a non-confrontational manner.

I have never once gone to forum and told the majority of its members that a good many of their beliefs were wrong as you have done so time times in the past.

The reasons this post offended me is because it sounds like your saying that some of us are so stupid that we must plug our ears or make up excuses as to why others have left the church, because if we used our minds then we would more than likely leave too.

Could it possibly be offensive to me for some of you here to tell me that most people who leave (possibly meaning me) do so because I was offended, as opposed to thinking for myself and actually making a decision based on facts?

Have I really told people here that you are wrong, or have I just said, "I believe this:"?

Heck, most of the time I don't even touch threads like this for fear of offending in another religion's territory. I suppose I am seen differently than I see myself. For that, I apologize. If I even hang around, I'll be more careful to stay in the Gerneral Discussion forum.

[Maureen]

Shanstress,

...I have never once gone to forum and told the majority of its members that a good many of their beliefs were wrong as you have done so time times in the past.

I'm also surprised by this statement. begood2, could you give us some examples of how shanstress has done this? I'm very curious to read your response.

M.

[pushka]

Would you like to comment on what you feel is the correct thing to do in this situation, Brandon? Obviously I know that to avoid alcohol when we're in each other's presence would make a great deal of difference, but we have tried this before and it has only worked for a short time, before alcohol steadily creeps back into the drinks we're having whilst together.

Yes it seems to me that alcohol is the problem. You go to parties where it is present, you have it around you whenever you are together with this person, whether in your home or hers. The thing is, you need to forgive her, if nothing else at least forgive her in your heart. There are many other things that I see that need to be done, that I would hope that you would not take offense to, and if you truly want to know then feel free to PM me, but this is not the place to discuss those things for they are too personal in nature.

That is not to say that we could not all use the advice, it's that I know how some people respond to things and I would rather not have others comment on those things and thereby take away from the serriousness of them and add their own improper remarks or advice.

Hi again Brandon and Desire, and thanks for taking the time to reply to my query.

Desire, I'm sorry to hear that you have a similar problem going on in your life and have to find a new place to live because of it. I wish you all the best in your seach, and all good luck in your life afterwards.

Brandon, I would be very happy to hear your other thoughts on the issue I raised. I'm hoping that some of the suggestions you make are ones which I've already considered at other times, but not yet been able to put into action, I will be pleased to hear all of them and will not respond in a negative way, hopefully!

I suppose in my heart I am able to forgive her, and that is why we usually end up getting together again...it's just the repetition of mistakes we've both made in the past in our friendship that I am afraid of facing again, and the possibility of leaving myself open to another argument. I will PM you, as requested and may post some of your reply to me on this thread, if you agree that it would be helpful for others.

Thanks for offering to help

Michele x

[StrawberryFields]

Shan,

Sorry I didn't get to the PM yet. I thought I would try to let this dead horse die with a PM but since it continues I will post here.

I think Begood said it well. Sometimes I have a hard time expressing my feelings because I am not very good with words.

Maureen and Shanstress you both know that begood and I are very open minded about non members being here etc. You were both surprised by our reactions and so it must have hit us both the same way. I personally think there is something good that keeps you coming to a PRO-LDS site or else you wouldn't be here. Most of the time I see that you are trying to express your opinions in a non offensive way.

Lately I have grown a little tired of hearing that our church isn't true. I have even defended Shanstress outspoken ways of our prophets thinking she will mellow out, maybe she is just going through something personal in her life.

Shanstress, I don't feel you need to defend your leaving the church to anyone, it just wasn't for you. You have a right to feel that way just as we have a right not to have anti-mormon things said on this Pro-LDS site. I like you Shanstress, we have been friends for years and I don't really mean that you have nothing positive to offer here. I know you don't mean to offend and I am sorry for offending you. You and iI are alike where we don't get heavily involved in defending our relgion discussions. I don't get involved because I use this site as an outlet to escape some negitive aspects of life like we all have from time to time.

Shan, you are a good person, and I loved seeing your picture in your profile. You look very much like I thought you would, very pretty. :)

[shanstress70]

Thanks for the compliments, SF. I apologize for offending you and will try harder not to do that.

I apologize to you as well, BeGood, and anyone else I've offended.

Basically this means that I cannot speak of my opinions as far as religion goes bc they differ from the LDS posters here. I know that most of the time, other opinions are welcome, but who knows when that will be taken as offensive? And it also means that if my beliefs are insulted, I cannot defend them.

Hmmm...

[StrawberryFields]

Basically this means that I cannot speak of my opinions as far as religion goes bc they differ from the LDS posters here. I know that most of the time, other opinions are welcome, but who knows when that will be taken as offensive? And it also means that if my beliefs are insulted, I cannot defend them.

Hmmm...

Shan,

Has anyone here offended your beliefs?

[Princess3dward]

Could it possibly be offensive to me for some of you here to tell me that most people who leave (possibly meaning me) do so because I was offended, as opposed to thinking for myself and actually making a decision based on facts?

I got lost here. Can you copy and paste where someone said that you left because you were offended?

I am absent minded, and I would like to know where all of the responses are coming from.

Thanx

[pushka]

Hi again,

Brandon sent me a PM about being offended, and how to deal with the situation of forgiving the person who offended and how to generally avoid the situation arising again in my position. He mentioned me possibly reprinting his PM here, as it might be useful for others, so here goes:

'Thank you for giving me this opportunity Michele,

The problem is not just in the fact that alcohol is involved, but also the atmosphere in which the two of you are in. You are in an atmosphere that promotes the consumption of alcohol. She may have it in her home, you may have it in yours. You must remove alcohol from the equation.

The other problem is that you have not forgiven her completely in your heart. There are two sides to the coin when it comes to forgiveness. You have to forgive the offender, but you must also forgive yourself for having taken offense and repent before the Lord for having done so.

Remember the teachings of the Savior Jesus Christ. He said, "What manner of men ought you to be? Behold, I say unto you, even as I am." Christ also taught that when someone smites us on the right cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone should compell us to go a mile, go with them twain. If a man should sue us at the law and take away our coat, give to them our cloak also. We are to give to all men that ask of us and turn them not away. Is this not the way in which the Savior lived? Not only did He teach the law, but lived it Himself as an example to each of us and to prove that it is not impossible.

Christ was beaten, scourged, mocked, ridiculed, spit upon, and eventually slain and through it all He had compassion on those who sought to do Him harm. He embodied the doctrine that He taught of "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh the sun to rise of the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." Matthew 5:44-45

The thing I must ask is this, do you throw parties of your own where she is not present, but alcohol is? Do most of your other friends drink? If so, remove alcohol completely from your life. It clouds your judgement, and allows for the adversary to work in ways that he otherwise would be unable to. I have heard that alcohol in moderation is not bad, but when you first began drinking was it to excess or to the point that you drink now? Every person that I have ever know to be a drinker began drinking in small amounts, began in moderation, but soon found that they liked it too much and then it had a hold of them and so when they drank the amount consumed became more and more. They may have only consumed alcohol at parties or on special occassions, but when they did it was to excess.

Forgive this person, both in your heart and openly. Forgive yourself of having taken offense. And then if you feel that you can not be her friend without succumbing to the temptation to partake of alcohol or attend her parties where you know alcohol will be present, then tell her plainly that you forgive her, but can not continue to be her friend because of the difference in lifestyle. Then you must choose your friends wisely. Choose those who do not partake of those things you know would cloud your mind and inhibit your ability to discern the still small voice of the Spirit from that of Satan. I know you no longer practice the LDS faith, but the advice is still valid and useful.

We must keep ourselves from situations and places where the whisperings of the Spirit can not be heard. Stand ye in Holy places. Create within your home an atmosphere where the Spirit of the Lord can feel welcome and can dwell as it would in the temples of the Lord. That is what our home is supposed to be, a temple, a refuge from the storm, a house of order, a house of learning, a house of prayer, a house of God. There are many good talks on www.byutv.com that speak of bringing the Spirit of God into our homes. I recommend listening to or reading those talks.

I pray that you might find peace.'

Thanks again for the advice Brandon, you've received a PM in return. :)

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

Could it possibly be offensive to me for some of you here to tell me that most people who leave (possibly meaning me) do so because I was offended, as opposed to thinking for myself and actually making a decision based on facts?

I got lost here. Can you copy and paste where someone said that you left because you were offended?

I am absent minded, and I would like to know where all of the responses are coming from.

Thanx

Desire,

From Brandon: "Elder David A. Bednar spoke of being offended as being the primary reason for most if not all of peoples inactivity."

This is the statement I was originally replying to... Bednar's... who suggests that everyone may leave bc of being offended.

When I said, "No, some leave bc they are offended", Brandon once again suggested that they stop believing bc they were offended.

BeGood2 then also suggested that perhaps the person took offense BEFORE starting to not believe.

SF,

I haven't been offended here in quite a while, other than you saying that I don't have anything positive to contribute here.

I didn't say that I had been offended in that post. I sd that IF my beliefs were insulted I would not be able to defend them. (As in explaining why mine are true TO ME vs yours being true TO ME.)

[StrawberryFields]

SF,

I haven't been offended here in quite a while, other than you saying that I don't have anything positive to contribute here.

I didn't say that I had been offended in that post. I sd that IF my beliefs were insulted I would not be able to defend them. (As in explaining why mine are true TO ME vs yours being true TO ME.)

Then the answer is No, your beliefs have not been offended. Therefore you don't need to worry about them being offended while visiting this Pro-LDS site.

I may be wrong, but it seems you are saying that you feel that you need to clarify why you left the church everytime something comes up concerning the truthfulness of the LDS Faith.

Some highlights of the rules.

This site is set up for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Friendly nonmembers are invited to listen or participate as they desire, but antagonistic visitors are not welcome. Please keep in mind that this is a private site and not a public forum. We welcome those of other faiths to share their beliefs with us in an appropriate manner. Remember to be kind an courteous to all who participate.

Bashing ones church or faith will not be permitted.

-- Including disrespectfully discussing Temple Ceremonies.

Offensive name calling of any sort to anyone on this site will not be tolerated.

Links to Anti LDS or anything else offensive will not be tolerated, this includes cut and pasting articles from or by anti. If you want to discuss something put it in your own words and discuss.

Comments of offensive, disrespectful, or ill nature towards the leaders of ones faith or church, that bother members of this board are not acceptable

To read the full rules go tp http://www.ldstalk.com/rules.html

[shanstress70]

I may be wrong, but it seems you are saying that you feel that you need to clarify why you left the church everytime something comes up concerning the truthfulness of the LDS Faith.

No, that is definitely not true. But I do feel the need to say that I didn't leave bc of being offended, as some suggested. I don't think it was 'anti' in any way to state that.

Would you please tell me when I have broken any of LDSTalk's rules?

[Maureen]

...Lately I have grown a little tired of hearing that our church isn't true...

So what if other posters don't believe as you believe SF; does that negate your freedom or choice to believe. I understand that you come here as a refuge; but if the only posters that showed up at this forum were just LDS, the place would get a little boring after awhile (and as you've witnessed before SF, not all LDS get along with each other). The diversity of posters and beliefs here make this board more energetic and interesting, IMO.

M.

[StrawberryFields]

Would you please tell me when I have broken any of LDSTalk's rules?

Shan,

We have been getting complaints about some of the material that we as moderators let get by. We have had people leave the site because we as moderators don't do our job. If it is offensive to the majority of members of the church it doesn't belong here, thus my reason for the reminder of the rules.

"Comments of offensive, disrespectful, or ill nature towards the leaders of ones faith or church, that bother members of this board are not acceptable."

If someone gives a disclaimer about not trying to offend the members of the church does not give permission to say what ever they want.

<div class='quotemain'>

...Lately I have grown a little tired of hearing that our church isn't true...

So what if other posters don't believe as you believe SF; does that negate your freedom or choice to believe. I understand that you come here as a refuge; but if the only posters that showed up at this forum were just LDS, the place would get a little boring after awhile (and as you've witnessed before SF, not all LDS get along with each other). The diversity of posters and beliefs here make this board more energetic and interesting, IMO.

M.

I agree that we have a good mix here at LDS Talk and as you mentioned LDS members don't always have the same feelings about all topics. Many of us have been here together for a very long time...almost like a lil family and it's not as if I think the mix is wrong. I just think it is important to remember the rules so that everyone gets what they expected when they signed on to be a member of LDS Talk. :)

[Traveler]

I have not read all the posts but I would like to add that no one has to read everybody's posts. If someone is tired of what a certain poster is posting - then quit reading their posts.

Something that I have found interesting about posts. If you say something intelligent and logical many other posters will look at it and think it was nice - but why comment the, first post says it all. However, if you post something really stupid or off the wall insane; almost everybody in the forum will respond and you will get a lot of attention. It is my theory that many poster types love attention more than they love saying something intelligent and logical - so we give incentive to such posters by giving them the attention they crave.

There are no rules that anyone has to respond to anyone else. That said there some posters that I will go out of my way to read. Not because I agree with them but because they give incite from a different point of view - often when I think about their opinions from their point of view I realize that they have opinions worth considering. Snow and PC are a couple of good examples.

The Traveler