Dentists and September 11th

[Klein_Helmer]

An interesting combination to be sure.

Hala401 and I were recently having a discussion on such matters, and some rather intriguing ideas came to light. A senior member of the site, and a forum moderator rightly judged our conversation to be irrelevant to the thread in which it was born, but I found it so fascinating that it is my wish to continue it here.

For those of you who may have missed the original transcript, here are the highlights:

I understand that Dentists have a high suicide rate because they are Artists, and the people who are the recipients of their art are often just slobs.

Why do you believe dentists specifically are worth of the designation, "artists"?

Why do you imagine the recipients of dental work to be, "often just slobs"?

If you could see the art work that my dentist has made for my own mouth and how much of a slob I am you'd know.

Fair enough on the first count, although you would do well not paint with such broad strokes on the second. Your evaluation of yourself as slovenly has no bearing on the recipients of dental work as a group.

The end came for me after 9/11 and seeing all the mischief the government got up to... I can see that America was in great danger then, not from Muslims but from evil, power hungry men right here in America.

Please speak more on these statements.

In the first place, the idea that the terrorists were considered to be Muslims by Muslims shows the ignorance of some Americans. If you do good solid research you can find this out. It is self evident.

Is your contention that the individuals responsible for the attacks on the United States on September 11 were not Muslims?

If so, bring to light this, "good solid research," that would validate, and make, "self evident" such a claim. Also, What mischief do you imagine the US government was up to, and who were/are these, "evil, power hungry, American men," and what danger did/do they pose to the citizenry?

Again, just good solid research done in libraries and, universities, exploring the public record is much more effective than relying on "Fox News", and those in the local pub who seem to grow more intelligent with each pint of "Hair of the Dog".

Are you suggesting I get my news from Fox and drunks at the bar? It seems like you are projecting.

It is said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I am looking for information, not insults. If you are indeed privy to, "good solid research done in libraries and universities," that would implicate the United States government in treasonous mischief, or establish the ill will of, "evil power hunger, American men" toward the citizenry, I am desirous of seeing it.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Klein_Helmer

[pam]

She already said in the other thread that she doesn't wish to discuss it further.

[Klein_Helmer]

She already said in the other thread that she doesn't wish to discuss it further.

I see, Do you have any thoughts on dentists or September 11th as they pertain to this thread?

[Vort]

I will probably respond to this thread later on today. But for now, let me point out that I think you're taking Hala's words entirely too personally. She was speaking from her experience, not offering up a judgment of you personally.

I do think the issues you raise are interesting from an intellectual perspective. I actually have had some conversations with my dentist about how he views himself as a sculptor, how he and his assistants make value judgments on the work done by other dentists, and how discouraging it is for him to see people refuse to take care of their oral health so that his work often seems to go to waste. From what I have heard, I think Hala's comments in that arena are spot-on. But I'm no dentist, so I'm only going off of conversations I've had.

[Klein_Helmer]

I will probably respond to this thread later on today. But for now, let me point out that I think you're taking Hala's words entirely too personally. She was speaking from her experience, not offering up a judgment of you personally.

I do think the issues you raise are interesting from an intellectual perspective. I actually have had some conversations with my dentist about how he views himself as a sculptor, how he and his assistants make value judgments on the work done by other dentists, and how discouraging it is for him to see people refuse to take care of their oral health so that his work often seems to go to waste. From what I have heard, I think Hala's comments in that arena are spot-on. But I'm no dentist, so I'm only going off of conversations I've had.

Haha, glad you could make it, Vort.

I look forward to your musings.

[Guest]

My sister-in-law is a very good dental hygienist. Her opinion on the matter is that dentistry is entirely subjective- way more than most of us realize. Every dentist has his own philosophy. Most are way too free with the drill. Many are definitely in it for the money, and forget that not all of us have lots of income to support their "art". I wish she still lived here, because she'd clean our teeth, get the dentist's opinion, and then tell us what was actually necessary. It was usually much less than what the dentist said.

As for 9/11 conspiracy theories, I think they're all loony. I would be sad and extremely surprised to be proven wrong.

[Klein_Helmer]

My sister-in-law is a very good dental hygienist. Her opinion on the matter is that dentistry is entirely subjective- way more than most of us realize. Every dentist has his own philosophy. Most are way too free with the drill. Many are definitely in it for the money, and forget that not all of us have lots of income to support their "art". I wish she still lived here, because she'd clean our teeth, get the dentist's opinion, and then tell us what was actually necessary. It was usually much less than what the dentist said.

As for 9/11 conspiracy theories, I think they're all loony. I would be sad and extremely surprised to be proven wrong.

She sounds like a great resource to have around.

With regard to 9/11 conspiracy theories, let me throw this out there:

What if... what if, the terrorists were actually slovenly, artistic dentists???

...

Edited April 16, 2012 by Klein_Helmer

[Guest]

I doubt many insurance companies would have covered that kind of work, so they probably wouldn't do it.

[Klein_Helmer]

[Klein_Helmer]

I doubt many insurance companies would have covered that kind of work, so they probably wouldn't do it.

I laughed out loud.

[JudoMinja]

Hmm... My personal thoughts on dentists- I don't have any problems with the people in general, but I take issue with them when they want to do more with my mouth than is necessary. I take good care of my teeth and go every six months for my cleanings. My teeth are ultra-sensitive and I get a special mouth wash to help with that. Other than that, I'd prefer my mouth to be left alone.

I understand how many dentists may consider their work art, but for me- my mouth is used for very practical reasons, and as long as I can continue to use it without hinderance or discomfort, I'm fine with it. My teeth aren't straight, but I never did braces and don't plan to. They aren't sparkling white, but I don't use whiteners. And I haven't had my wisdom teeth removed. When a dentist tries to tell me I need to do any of these things when I don't really need to- it would just make my mouth look nicer- I'm inclined to find a different dentist. If it is actually medically necessary because it is causing me problems, I'll do it. Otherwise, I'd like them to leave my mouth alone.

[Klein_Helmer]

Hmm... My personal thoughts on dentists- I don't have any problems with the people in general, but I take issue with them when they want to do more with my mouth than is necessary. I take good care of my teeth and go every six months for my cleanings. My teeth are ultra-sensitive and I get a special mouth wash to help with that. Other than that, I'd prefer my mouth to be left alone.

I understand how many dentists may consider their work art, but for me- my mouth is used for very practical reasons, and as long as I can continue to use it without hinderance or discomfort, I'm fine with it. My teeth aren't straight, but I never did braces and don't plan to. They aren't sparkling white, but I don't use whiteners. And I haven't had my wisdom teeth removed. When a dentist tries to tell me I need to do any of these things when I don't really need to- it would just make my mouth look nicer- I'm inclined to find a different dentist. If it is actually medically necessary because it is causing me problems, I'll do it. Otherwise, I'd like them to leave my mouth alone.

And if that doesn't work, hit them with a massive uchi mata?

[Vort]

And if that doesn't work, hit them with a massive uchi mata?

Harai goshi is much more satisfying.

[Hala401]

She already said in the other thread that she doesn't wish to discuss it further.

The one who loves me will not allow me to get angry and be ugly.

[Klein_Helmer]

The one who loves me will not allow me to get angry and be ugly.

It is not my intention to render you angry or ugly, I am merely curious to see where you found the information that has brought you to your previously stated conclusions.

If I were to make such outlandish claims, I would not recoil were someone to request sources.

If such sources do not exist, or are unreliable, you may do better not to make such baseless statements.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Klein_Helmer

[Klein_Helmer]

Harai goshi is much more satisfying.

Are you a fight fan, Vort?

[Hala401]

It is not my intention to render you angry or ugly, I am merely curious to see where you found the information that has brought you to your previously stated conclusions.

If I were to make such outlandish claims, I would not recoil were someone to request sources.

If such sources do not exist, or are unreliable, you may do better not to make such baseless statements.

You need less time in fight cage and more time in school.

[Guest]

I love the "if you don't agree with me you're stupid/uneducated/ignorant" approach.

I don't always appreciate Klein's method, but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for backup to big claims, and throwing out insults instead doesn't do much good. Of course if you just don't want to talk about it, that's your right.

[Klein_Helmer]

You need less time in fight cage and more time in school.

That seems a strange thing to say, given the context of our conversation, in which you espoused any number of fringe conspiracy theories, for which you have yet to provide a single shred of evidence.

I do not appreciate being insulted, though I will not respond in kind.

I will however offer you this pearl:

Petty derision is more effective when accurate. If you seek to discredit me by questioning my level of education, well...

Edited April 16, 2012 by Klein_Helmer

[Klein_Helmer]

I love the "if you don't agree with me you're stupid/uneducated/ignorant" approach.

I don't always appreciate Klein's method, but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for backup to big claims, and throwing out insults instead doesn't do much good. Of course if you just don't want to talk about it, that's your right.

Cheers.

[Hala401]

I love the "if you don't agree with me you're stupid/uneducated/ignorant" approach.

I don't always appreciate Klein's method, but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for backup to big claims, and throwing out insults instead doesn't do much good. Of course if you just don't want to talk about it, that's your right.

OK, you are right Eowyn. I have spent so much time discussing these sorts of issues on islam.about.com, and it is very wearing, but I will do it.

[Dravin]

Of course if you just don't want to talk about it, that's your right.

And I would recommend that one avoid a thread essentially dedicated to talking about a topic one does not want to talk about.

[Dravin]

OK, you are right Eowyn. I have spent so much time discussing these sorts of issues on islam.about.com, and it is very wearing, but I will do it.

You don't have to talk about it, but I suggest a couple things:

1) If you really don't want to talk about a subject, don't bring it up to begin with. If I was sick and tired of defending that Toy Story was the best movie every made I need to not insist it is, because someone may very well ask me why.

2) If you did bring it up but have decided you don't want to go through the hassle of defending or explaining your position, bow out and stay out. Yes, people will come to the conclusion that you can't defend your position not that you just don't want the aggravation of doing so. Well, such is life, popping up to continue to insist you won't talk about it, or to cast aspersions, isn't going to change their conclusion. Just accept the lowered stress of not dealing with a rebuttal to be it's own reward even if it's counterbalanced by some people on the internet figuring they've 'won'.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Dravin

[Hala401]

Cheers.

Ok, what would you like addressed first? Lets start with Muslims as terrorists? At some point this conversation may get banned.

I was Muslim for almost seven years, and was extremely immersed in the culture, and I am finding it very difficult to get back into American culture. Talking to other Muslims, and Punjabis, they have a long list of grievances about what the West, has done to them. According to a Welsh man I know, and a woman who is second generation Punjabi living in the UK, they both agree that the British Colonialists created huge problems in India and what is now Pakistan and Bangladesh by partitioning the country after WWII. There is a passable movie on the subject called "Partition", and it is available on Netflix.

I know people from Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Egypt and other places. While every single one of them wants to be rich like Americans, they eschew the past actions of the Western Governments. Afghanis will tell you that Americans created the Taliban by giving tribal Afghans weapons to fight the Russians and then not helping them recover after the Russians committed Genocide there. Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OH, make no mistake that I am absolutely American and patriotic too. I just want the dirty dealings to stop.

A more consumer level account of what happened in Afghanistan is in the movie, "Mr Smith's War", Or "Senator Smith's War".

A bit of history that I only just found out about, really made me ill. Apparently In the early 50's Iran had a democratically elected government and they started getting friendly with the Soviets. So, the British MI6 and the American CIA engineered the overthrow of that government and installed the Shah, who according to Shia Muslims I know was a despot.

Aparently it got so bad that the people of Iran, threw she Shah out and installed their own radical Shia Muslim Government around 1979. So, that is partially the reason for animosity between the Iranian government and the West. While they say that there is a big issue with Iran building a bomb to attack America, I am told that the real issue is over the oil that Iran has and sells to the same customers that the Sunni Muslims do, thus undercutting them. The Shia and the Sunni do not like each other at all. There are about 5% Shia in the World and about 95% are Sunni, with some insignificant factions like the Suffi and others mixed in.

I will leave you with that for now.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Hala401
Clarity

[Klein_Helmer]

Ok, what would you like addressed first? Lets start with Muslims as terrorists? At some point this conversation may get banned.

I was Muslim for almost seven years, and was extremely immersed in the culture, and I am finding it very difficult to get back into American culture. Talking to other Muslims, and Punjabis, they have a long list of grievances about what the West, has done to them. According to a Welsh man I know, and a woman who is second generation Punjabi living in the UK, they both agree that the British Colonialists created huge problems in India and what is now Pakistan and Bangladesh by partitioning the country after WWII. There is a passable movie on the subject called "Partition", and it is available on Netflix.

I know people from Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Egypt and other places. While every single one of them wants to be rich like Americans, they eschew the past actions of the Western Governments. Afghanis will tell you that Americans created the Taliban by giving tribal Afghans weapons to fight the Russians and then not helping them recover after the Russians committed Genocide there. Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OH, make no mistake that I am absolutely American and patriotic too. I just want the dirty dealings to stop.

A more consumer level account of what happened in Afghanistan is in the movie, "Mr Smith's War", Or "Senator Smith's War".

A bit of history that I only just found out about, really made me ill. Apparently In the early 50's Iran had a democratically elected government and they started getting friendly with the Soviets. So, the British MI6 and the American CIA engineered the overthrow of that government and installed the Shah, who according to Shia Muslims I know was a despot.

Aparently it got so bad that the people of Iran, threw she Shah out and installed their own radical Shia Muslim Government around 1979. So, that is partially the reason for animosity between the Iranian government and the West. While they say that there is a big issue with Iran building a bomb to attack America, I am told that the real issue is over the oil that Iran has and sells to the same customers that the Sunni Muslims do, thus undercutting them. The Shia and the Sunni do not like each other at all. There are about 5% Shia in the World and about 95% are Sunni, with some insignificant factions like the Suffi and others mixed in.

I will leave you with that for now.

I wanted you to provide documentation for your assertions that :

A. The notion that Muslims were responsible for the September 11th attacks was indicative of American ignorance.

B. The United States government was involved in some form of insidious mischief during the time of the attacks.

C. The danger faced by Americans during this time was not that of Muslim extremists, but rich, power hungry, American men.

You have still not addressed any of these very specific claims.

If the intent of your post here was to make me aware of the past and present evils visited on developing nations by the West, your words were unnecessary. I absolutely abhor the better part of the United States' foreign policy.