Church attitude towards Gays.

[Guest]

Seminarysnoozer, it seems like you are speaking under the opinion that the things that make us unique are our strengths and weaknesses. What about our interests and passions? Those (outside of sinful things) are neither good nor bad, they just are. My husband and I share a sense of humor. But we have mostly different tastes in music. I am deeply moved by music, but science gets him excited. We both like Thai food, but he likes it spicier than I do. We have friends who like to hike in to isolated places to camp, where we enjoy running water and plumbing. Whose preferences are more righteous?

I think being like Heavenly Father means we are joined with Him in purpose and righteousness, not that we are carbon copies of Him. There are many unique traits and preferences we carry that don't have anything to do with how "good" we are.

[annewandering]

Anne, I think maybe you're thinking of "being" in too earthly a term. I thought the whole point to our existence is to be like God in every way. So, if I become a "clone of God", that's like the greatest thing that will ever happen to me. I don't assign a "uniquely me" concept to my eternal existence. I have no desire to be unique or an individual. I merely have the desire to be one with God even it if means losing my individuality. I, of course, in my limited knowledge, do not know if losing my individuality is the end game of Godhood. But, if it is, I certainly welcome it.

ok well I dont. I think being someone else would be an eternal hell, even if that person is God. Fortunately we dont have to do that.

[Guest]

ok well I dont. I think being someone else would be an eternal hell, even if that person is God. Fortunately we dont have to do that.

How do you know that for certain? Because, I sure don't know that for certain.

[annewandering]

Hmm well is it rude to say because it is important to me so I do?

[Guest]

I know for myself, because of personal revelation combined with what I've learned all my life, that I was the same unique person before my life that I am now. I feel and believe that I will continue to be that person in the next life and for all of the Eternities, only better and continually progressing. Just like my sense of self doesn't have to be swallowed up in my marriage, which I think is the best model and practice for what is to come, I don't think it will be swallowed up in exaltation, either.

What's more, Heavenly Father loves ME, as his daughter, just as I love my daughters for the individuals that they are. I don't think he'd want me to lose those good things that make me who I am, any more than I'd want my daughters to lose their good, unique traits and have them become exactly like me.

No, I don't know, but how much do we really know? Sometimes we get that absolute witness, but I don't think we talk about those times. Our testimonies are built up of little things we learn along the way; things that are gifts from the Spirit. I believe these things as I believe in other principles that have been spiritually confirmed to me along the way.

[annewandering]

Thank you Eowyn for saying that so much better than I have.

[Guest]

That kind of individuality is not important to me because I've always looked at One with God as the goal. If that means my wants and desires mirror His exactly (which I've always thought is what we were supposed to strive for), then that's what it means. I don't really have a preference on that particular thought one way or the other. No, I haven't prayed about it. My prayer goes more like, "Tell me where you want me, God" - however that turns out to be. I don't really care to qualify it with - as long as I can keep my uniqueness...

Liking music as opposed to silence... I don't know if that really matters in the eternities. Who knows. God probably likes both music and silence... so we probably would end up liking both too if we end up achieving perfection.

Edited May 10, 2012 by anatess

[Guest]

Just another thing that makes us different. :)

I haven't prayed to keep my uniqueness, or even really thought of doing so. I have prayed to know if Heavenly Father loves me and approves of me, and I've felt strongly that He loves who I am, and created who I am. Maybe because of that, I take it for granted that He will want me to continue to be some version of the daughter He loves. . . and I don't mean that in a prideful way at all, in fact just the opposite. I'm humbled to know that He loves me, knowing not only the good I'm capable of, but also the bad. He wants me to overcome the bad things and be the best I can. I feel that everything I'm going through in this life that shapes and refines who I am won't be lost.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Eowyn

[Guest]

Just another thing that makes us different. :)

Aint that the truth. :)

[bluedreams]

All the examples that you gave are descriptions of the differences that exist mostly in this life, that is what I meant.

I don't think there is as much distinction between now and heaven:

From DC 130:

1 When the Savior shall appear we shall see him as he is. We shall see that he is a man like ourselves.

2 And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.

Though I expect much to be dramatically different, who we intrinsically are shouldn't. God adds to the true knowledge from what we receive now. What little knowledge I have received about conversion (or the process of becoming like Christ) has taught me that God wants me to be me. I have changed dramatically over the years. My power to access the power and glory of the Lord has increased. I have a better understanding of the atonement. But I'm still myself.

Maybe at least you will agree that as we approach perfection (if that is the direction a person is heading, which probably applies to only a small percentage of all individuals on this Earth), that the differences become smaller. Maybe you don't agree with that, I don't know. Maybe you think that the differences don't change, which would make me wonder what you think the purpose of this life is. Or maybe you think the differences will increase, which to me doesn't fit with the gospel teachings at all.

Depends on what differences. I'd say the amount of sin and corruption (and associated behavior) in our life becomes smaller. I'd say that superflous differences such as race, sexual orientation, gender stratification, class division, etc become smaller. But as to what intrinsically is me I would not say shrinks. It becomes more definite if anything. The power of Christ in my life has made me more solidly myself.

Which differences??? I think many labels that we place on ourself will be gone

I think many will be as well. The worldly ones that I mentioned above.

When we say that the plan is to help people become more like Heavenly Father, in what way do you think that is? If one says, to have His glory or to have His purpose, I don't see how that can be separated from personality when it is completely perfected. (Before reaching perfection, yes it is different.) His glory is based on His personality, what He does, how He thinks, the things He finds value in and works on, the things He loves, etc. These are all personality traits. They don't vary and they are not whimsical. They are not variable or random. His glory was obtained the same way it always has, eternally doing it the same way. The opposite of that is to have mannerisms and decisions that vary with the wind.

His work and glory is pretty straight forward and broad: To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of humanity. That's it. I'm not seeing how this points out his personality. He'll still be different from me as I will still be different from you. This does not negate being one. To me it's much like the various analogies that speaks of being one body. Where we all are apart of one, but we all are distinctive. We all work to fulfill the glory of God but we all do it differently. The foot is apart of the body but is not the same as the head. They work/act differently but for the same purpose of glorifying the whole.

When one group sees themselves as different, that is the start of prejudice and pride. It is the start of entitlement and judgement.

No. When one group assumes their differences deem another better or more important, that is the beginning of pride and prejudice. Noting differneces does not equal pride.

With luv,

BD

Edited May 10, 2012 by bluedreams

[Guest]

It's interesting that something that's been on my mind lately is a phrase in the temple that seems insignificant (though I don't think any words we hear in the temple movie are insignificant, really) but I think applies here. It's that Christ, under the direction of Heavenly Father, formed the earth in different ways and placed different things here to "beautify and give variety". That says to me that He values differences. For what it's worth.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It's interesting that something that's been on my mind lately is a phrase in the temple that seems insignificant (though I don't think any words we hear in the temple movie are insignificant, really) but I think applies here. It's that Christ, under the direction of Heavenly Father, formed the earth in different ways and placed different things here to "beautify and give variety". That says to me that He values differences. For what it's worth.

Yes, that is true, there were different types of animals and plants placed. How many different types of human beings did He place in the Garden? ...for what its worth.

[Guest]

A man and a woman who were very different from each other, and then their children who were also very different.

"For what it's worth" wasn't meant to be snarky. I was trying to imply that while it was a thought I had, I didn't expect everyone to see it the way I did. I'm sorry you interpreted it as such.

[Seminarysnoozer]

If we are different than God we are not lacking. Different is not evil or wrong. Why in the world do you think that different is bad?

I do not get this lacking bit. You are saying you want to be a clone of God. right? If so that is just wrong. Why do you feel that you are not worthy to be a God unless you give up being uniquely you?

I never said being different is bad. I have been suggesting, though, that the love of being different may be the wrong desire of the heart if one is trying to make it to a place where everyone is like Heavenly Father.

In the same sense, money is not evil, differences are not evil. This is a fallen state that we are asked to pass through. But to love the corruption we find ourselves in now, which is the carnal state we are in may not be the right choice. This is part of the test we face, do we feed our carnal natures or nurture our spiritual nature and potential. ... and to what degree. It is not an all or nothing test of course, we are being tested as to what degree we favor these things.

If I live my life with my heart mind might and soul with an eye single to the glory of God, what percentage of that single thought is directed to my own (temporary) uniqueness?

Maybe you don't believe this but I know that our stewardship given here in this life is not me. Just like the child who is born with Down Syndrome is not that person. You may say, well there are diseases that are not the person. If you believe that, even a little, then tell me whose body in this life is perfect? So, how you are right now is not really you. This is what you have been given temporarily as a set of traits and characteristics that are for your test in this fallen state. "Fallen" means that we are not like how we were before this life even. How far fallen are we? I tend to think, very far, if you consider living and growing in the presence of God for at least thousands of years, probably a lot more. Are you saying we should love our fallen state more than our potential? We should love God, even unto death (meaning giving up everything about this life).

[Guest]

Do you have any scriptures or other citations to back your position up?

[circusboy01]

Some? Now just how many mates have you had? :)

If where talking girlfriends. Naturally there would be far too many to remember.

[annewandering]

No we have no reason to love a fallen state unless we love evil. You and I speak two different languages, I suspect. I do not regard who I am as being tied to my body. I have to overcome my bodily weaknesses. My body does not define who I am.

[circusboy01]

Yes, that is true, there were different types of animals and plants placed. How many different types of human beings did He place in the Garden? ...for what its worth.

I know this is not true, and I mean no disrespect. But your post made me picture Heavenly Father, trying this form, that form, and another. Until he finally decided. Aw what the heck I'll just make him look like me:)

[annewandering]

I know this is not true, and I mean no disrespect. But your post made me picture Heavenly Father, trying this form, that form, and another. Until he finally decided. Aw what the heck I'll just make him look like me:)

lol. Even then He made a lot of variations!

[Guest]

Do you have any scriptures or other citations to back your position up?

The thing that comes to my mind is Jesus praying to the Father that we may all be one in Him as Jesus is one with the Father. Now, interestingly, the Catholics don't make a distinction between Father and Son except for their personage (one being God without form, the other both mortal and God). That's how One they think they are. So that, when I learned of the Godhead with Heavenly Father and Jesus as 2 separate beings, as opposed to Trinitarian understanding, I did not go so far as to say Jesus Christ has desires that are not His Father's. I mean, to me, that kinda unravels their Godhead-edness. One in words, thoughts, deeds, and desires. That's how ONE they are. And all over the scriptures we are asked to be as one as that too.

Have you noticed that every single LDS picture you see of Heavenly Father and Jesus together - they both look exactly alike? I kinda love that about them. No, of course I don't expect at all for us to look exactly alike. But, one in thoughts, words, deeds, and desires... one with God. That's like the ultimate in perfection.

Now, of course, this is just my understanding and mine alone.

[Seminarysnoozer]

A man and a woman who were very different from each other, and then their children who were also very different.

"For what it's worth" wasn't meant to be snarky. I was trying to imply that while it was a thought I had, I didn't expect everyone to see it the way I did. I'm sorry you interpreted it as such.

I was being snarky, I apologize.

I think it has already been mentioned a few times that what we find here in this fallen state is a variation or corruption from the original copy. So, I don't disagree with the variance that we find in this world and in this life as it pertains to the mortal body.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Do you have any scriptures or other citations to back your position up?

Luke 18:14 " 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Luke 18:19 "19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

D&C 121:7 "7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;"

Mosiah 4:5-8 " 5 For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen state—

6 I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body—

7 I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world.

8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you."

President Uchtdorf; "The great deceiver knows that one of his most effective tools in leading the children of God astray is to appeal to the extremes of the paradox of man. To some, he appeals to their prideful tendencies, puffing them up and encouraging them to believe in the fantasy of their own self-importance and invincibility. He tells them they have transcended the ordinary and that because of ability, birthright, or social status, they are set apart from the common measure of all that surrounds them. He leads them to conclude that they are therefore not subject to anyone else’s rules and not to be bothered by anyone else’s problems." (i.e - appeal to the differences found in man, the paradox being we may seem different in this life but we are all children of God)

Moses 1:5 " 5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth." ( - once a person beholds all His glory, they can't remain in this fallen state, with all the corruption we find here, 'in the flesh')

Moses 1:9-11 "9 And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth.

10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him." (note the words "receive again" - why would he say that unless it was something that was given to him once before, like when he first fell into this fallen state of nothingness - birth)

Alma 5:14 " 14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?" (a reference to wanting to be like Him, a change from our current countenance)

! Corinthians 12 : " 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." (Paul explaining in this life we are separated but our goal is to become one. This whole chapter he explains that we can't look at who we are as more important than the whole body. The foot can't say it has no need for the hand, etc. Even though that is how we find ourselves now, we are learning to like being one, where one person suffers all suffer, where one is honored all is honored. In other words, there is no uniqueness, it is all shared. That is our goal that isn't achieved here in this life but still it is our goal to reach that state, to all sense the same things.)

President Monson said; "As the result of Christ’s victory over the grave, we shall all be resurrected. This is the redemption of the soul. Paul wrote: “There are … celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.”

It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings are earned through a lifetime of striving, seeking, repenting, and finally succeeding."

There are many others but this is all I have time for. ... things to ponder, at least.

[Seminarysnoozer]

No we have no reason to love a fallen state unless we love evil. You and I speak two different languages, I suspect. I do not regard who I am as being tied to my body. I have to overcome my bodily weaknesses. My body does not define who I am.

I don't see that as different. I have been saying that exact thing, that we are not "tied to our body", how we find ourselves is not who we really are. Many have been saying, in essence, that they are tied to their body, they couldn't fathom the idea of not being unique like their body is right now. We are in agreement then. I have been saying all along that we shouldn't be tied to our differences and uniqueness we find here. This is a temporary state of given, acquired set of traits that is part of our challenge that goes back to dust in the end. If we learn to love those traits they can stay with our spiritual make up. If we don't love them they don't have to stay with our spirit. This is why we seek after the things that are praiseworthy and of good report. If two, separate people, sought after all the good traits and wanted to remove all the bad traits, and this ideal continued through the next life, eventually they would look very similar if not the same.

One thing to point out is that "overcome" doesn't necessarily mean get rid of it during this life. Paul was okay with the "thorn in the flesh" and knew he couldn't really get rid of it because we are supposed to have these thorns here. Ultimately, it is Christ's atonement that will overcome all the effects of the Fall, depending on where we put our desires, on the flesh or on the spirit.

[Guest]

I've never thought of those scriptures in that way, and I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation, but thank you. It's something interesting to think about.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The thing that comes to my mind is Jesus praying to the Father that we may all be one in Him as Jesus is one with the Father. Now, interestingly, the Catholics don't make a distinction between Father and Son except for their personage (one being God without form, the other both mortal and God). That's how One they think they are. So that, when I learned of the Godhead with Heavenly Father and Jesus as 2 separate beings, as opposed to Trinitarian understanding, I did not go so far as to say Jesus Christ has desires that are not His Father's. I mean, to me, that kinda unravels their Godhead-edness. One in words, thoughts, deeds, and desires. That's how ONE they are. And all over the scriptures we are asked to be as one as that too.

Have you noticed that every single LDS picture you see of Heavenly Father and Jesus together - they both look exactly alike? I kinda love that about them. No, of course I don't expect at all for us to look exactly alike. But, one in thoughts, words, deeds, and desires... one with God. That's like the ultimate in perfection.

Now, of course, this is just my understanding and mine alone.

Thank you, thank you! Wow, I thought I was alone in this for a sec.

This may, in fact, be part of the test as uniqueness is rooted in self centered thoughts. Pride and entitlement are the fruits of the wanting to possess uniqueness. Whereas, humility, being as a child and a sense of our own nothingness are the fruits of having our eye single to the glory of God. To see our neighbors as ourselves is what we want to learn to love.