Church attitude towards Gays.

[Traveler]

I cannot believe how so many people miss so many points. I know a family that has had over 30 foster children in their home. They have adopted and brought up over 14 as their own children besides 6 of their own children. They are good people. They are LDS and very loving and caring. Many of the children have been products of homes with drug addicts and problem children beyond what most people could stand. But these people have a special love and compassion – they have performed miracles in raising children rejected by just about everybody else in society. To condemn then as unfit to have children because they work within the foster care system is an absolute travesty. To condemn them to honor homosexual is indeed a very sad thing.

There are many people performing incredible acts of good. I have never implied that gay people cannot perform good acts of kindness. My point is that the purpose, the act and the pursuit of being gay provide no benefit to society. I have asked and pleaded for any example of anything good coming to society because of gay relationships or homosexuality.

We like to condemn certain characters in history – but I challenge anyone to give any human example in all of history that did not do something good for society. We like to talk about how evil Hitler was – he did a lot of bad and caused the death of many people – but there are good things that he performed during his life. But I submit that it is foolish and counterproductive to accept the evil of Hitler based on his good deeds. Likewise we should not condemn his good deeds based on his evil pursuits. I am not saying gay people are pure evil. I am saying that same sex sexual active has 0 - “Zero” benefit for society and I cannot think of a single reason to stand up and applauded and give an honorable status or in any way recognized homosexuality as something that is so good and honorable that everyone should pursue as the most noble endeavor that mankind can devote themselves to. Because I do not find homosexual in anyway beneficial I cannot support it openly in public and I cannot say that worthy of mankind’s greatest honor – marriage. The fact that others disgrace marriage is no excuse to honor homosexuals as the what marriage should be.

Some have argued that it is better for a person to pursue homosexuality rather than rape. If you really believe that then please answer the question why. What is the benefit that you say is necessary from homosexuality - All I ask if for proof of one benefit. In contrast I offered that as horrible as rape is that there is a possible benefit. I did not say rape is worth the benefit nor do I support rape – I do not profess that rape is in anyway okay. But the pure logic is that rape provides a possible benefit and homosexuality provides none. Not one. Why then would anyone support it – what is the benefit that they believe it is worth?

Those of you that are willing to stand up and support homosexuality – I ask why – is there any benefit or reason that you see this to be necessary or are you arguing a pointless point without any logical basis – only that you “want to”. I would also suggest that no evil in all of the history of the universe was done because of a desire to follow actual logic to provide a real and actual benefit to society. All evil is done because regardless of no possible benefit – the person performing evil desired selfishly and refused to justify their choice by any benefit for society.

One last point – I am most concerned with parents that would raise their children to seek personal pleasures and the pleasures of self of their “friends” over the needs and possible benefits they could provide for society except for their extreme pursuit of complete and utter selfishness. If homosexuality is anything but selfishness – then someone please correct me and demonstrate that benefit beyond selfish desires – is something for a betterment of society – however so small – what is the benefit you so passionately believe is needed that cannot be provide any other way?

The Traveler

[DevtheWind]

I cannot believe how so many people miss so many points. I know a family that has had over 30 foster children in their home. They have adopted and brought up over 14 as their own children besides 6 of their own children. They are good people. They are LDS and very loving and caring. Many of the children have been products of homes with drug addicts and problem children beyond what most people could stand. But these people have a special love and compassion – they have performed miracles in raising children rejected by just about everybody else in society. To condemn then as unfit to have children because they work within the foster care system is an absolute travesty. To condemn them to honor homosexual is indeed a very sad thing.

There are many people performing incredible acts of good. I have never implied that gay people cannot perform good acts of kindness. My point is that the purpose, the act and the pursuit of being gay provide no benefit to society. I have asked and pleaded for any example of anything good coming to society because of gay relationships or homosexuality.

We like to condemn certain characters in history – but I challenge anyone to give any human example in all of history that did not do something good for society. We like to talk about how evil Hitler was – he did a lot of bad and caused the death of many people – but there are good things that he performed during his life. But I submit that it is foolish and counterproductive to accept the evil of Hitler based on his good deeds. Likewise we should not condemn his good deeds based on his evil pursuits. I am not saying gay people are pure evil. I am saying that same sex sexual active has 0 - “Zero” benefit for society and I cannot think of a single reason to stand up and applauded and give an honorable status or in any way recognized homosexuality as something that is so good and honorable that everyone should pursue as the most noble endeavor that mankind can devote themselves to. Because I do not find homosexual in anyway beneficial I cannot support it openly in public and I cannot say that worthy of mankind’s greatest honor – marriage. The fact that others disgrace marriage is no excuse to honor homosexuals as the what marriage should be.

Some have argued that it is better for a person to pursue homosexuality rather than rape. If you really believe that then please answer the question why. What is the benefit that you say is necessary from homosexuality - All I ask if for proof of one benefit. In contrast I offered that as horrible as rape is that there is a possible benefit. I did not say rape is worth the benefit nor do I support rape – I do not profess that rape is in anyway okay. But the pure logic is that rape provides a possible benefit and homosexuality provides none. Not one. Why then would anyone support it – what is the benefit that they believe it is worth?

Those of you that are willing to stand up and support homosexuality – I ask why – is there any benefit or reason that you see this to be necessary or are you arguing a pointless point without any logical basis – only that you “want to”. I would also suggest that no evil in all of the history of the universe was done because of a desire to follow actual logic to provide a real and actual benefit to society. All evil is done because regardless of no possible benefit – the person performing evil desired selfishly and refused to justify their choice by any benefit for society.

One last point – I am most concerned with parents that would raise their children to seek personal pleasures and the pleasures of self of their “friends” over the needs and possible benefits they could provide for society except for their extreme pursuit of complete and utter selfishness. If homosexuality is anything but selfishness – then someone please correct me and demonstrate that benefit beyond selfish desires – is something for a betterment of society – however so small – what is the benefit you so passionately believe is needed that cannot be provide any other way?

The Traveler

The "Thank you" button did not satisfy me. So... THANK YOU

[Wingnut]

Perhaps if we took a more loving approach to our proclamations that such relations are sins, it wouldn't be such an issue?

Give me an example of a more loving proclamation. Not sure it could get any more loving or straightforward than what we have heard from our prophet and other general authorities.

I don't think that Jena was referring to the proclamation on the family -- I suspect she would agree with you on that point. I think she was suggesting that it is less than charitable to "proclaim" that children would be better off raised in an orphanage or by two rocks than in a loving home led by a same-sex couple. It's a little insensitive.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Wingnut
typo

[carlimac]

I don't think that Jena was referring to the proclamation on the family -- I suspect she would agree with you on that point. I think she was suggesting that it is less than charitable to "proclaim" that children would be better off raised in an orphanage or m=by two rocks than in a loving home led by a same-sex couple. It's a little insensitive.

So give us an example of how we should be expressing our feelings on the issue.

[Wingnut]

Perhaps you could ask that of Jena, since she suggested it. I was clarifying what I thought she meant, but I don't know if my assumption is accurate or not.

[carlimac]

Perhaps you could ask that of Jena, since she suggested it. I was clarifying what I thought she meant, but I don't know if my assumption is accurate or not.

I did ask her.

[Jenamarie]

Thanks Wing. You're right in that I wasn't referring to the Proclamation to the Family at all. I was referring to many Christians seeming to focus on homosexuality as THE SIN OF ALL SINS. I've seen LDS families who let their children play with their friends whose parents smoke, but not with their friends whose parents are gay. I've seen non-married "significant others" welcomed into a family (even with the understanding that they're living a "married" lifestyle), while gay partners are banned from the house.

I see a significant lack of charity in many "Christians" dealings with those who identify as homosexual, and they also seem to place a significant number of hoops in their path if they want to be treated with such charity ("don't mention your partner at the family reunion" "I can't associate with you if you're not willing to work on your problem").

I don't know if I could articulate what I would wish to see instead beyond the old adage "Do unto others..." Would someone really want to embrace Christ if the most important person in their life is banned from their Christian parents' household? Would someone really want to embrace Christ if a significant part of who they are is constantly referred to as being an "abomination", without any obvious line being verbally drawn between the temptations and the actions? Would someone really want to embrace Christ if admitting to having these temptations causes them to be cut off from their friends and/or family members who claim to be Christian?

I think they need to feel LOVE, and acceptance as a Child of God from us first, before we even begin trying to help them, because whose going to want to accept help from someone who they believe isn't doing it out of love?

[DevtheWind]

I've always wondered how people could believe that homosexuals were born, not made by a choice... and if it wasn't a choice, why would you think that the Church would "outlaw" SGA if people couldn't help being that way?

[carlimac]

Thanks Wing. You're right in that I wasn't referring to the Proclamation to the Family at all. I was referring to many Christians seeming to focus on homosexuality as THE SIN OF ALL SINS. I've seen LDS families who let their children play with their friends whose parents smoke, but not with their friends whose parents are gay. I've seen non-married "significant others" welcomed into a family (even with the understanding that they're living a "married" lifestyle), while gay partners are banned from the house.

I see a significant lack of charity in many "Christians" dealings with those who identify as homosexual, and they also seem to place a significant number of hoops in their path if they want to be treated with such charity ("don't mention your partner at the family reunion" "I can't associate with you if you're not willing to work on your problem").

I don't know if I could articulate what I would wish to see instead beyond the old adage "Do unto others..." Would someone really want to embrace Christ if the most important person in their life is banned from their Christian parents' household? Would someone really want to embrace Christ if a significant part of who they are is constantly referred to as being an "abomination", without any obvious line being verbally drawn between the temptations and the actions? Would someone really want to embrace Christ if admitting to having these temptations causes them to be cut off from their friends and/or family members who claim to be Christian?

I think they need to feel LOVE, and acceptance as a Child of God from us first, before we even begin trying to help them, because whose going to want to accept help from someone who they believe isn't doing it out of love?

And you have echoed the exact sentiment of LDS church leaders in what you've just written about loving them. So anyone who is doing what you have described, casting them out of the family and whatnot isn't living the Gospel. We'll just have to look the other way with militant Christians who haven't learned from our prophet...yet.:)

The other thing to take a closer look at is this...By your attitude, are you too harshly judging those who are unkind? This attitude of accepting the individual's SGA is fairly new and perhaps they are struggling with it. It's pretty hard to spin long held beliefs on a dime. We are allowed to stuggle with concepts aren't we?

[Soulsearcher]

I've always wondered how people could believe that homosexuals were born, not made by a choice... and if it wasn't a choice, why would you think that the Church would "outlaw" SGA if people couldn't help being that way?

Try being gay and spending 30 years trying to be straight and living in constant fear and then asking when i made the choice? the other way of looking at it is when did you make a clear choice not to be gay?

[carlimac]

I've always wondered how people could believe that homosexuals were born, not made by a choice... and if it wasn't a choice, why would you think that the Church would "outlaw" SGA if people couldn't help being that way?

They actually haven't outlawed same gender attraction. Only homosexual relationships and intimacy. Those with SGA are encouraged not to label themselves as gay or lesbian but to look at their SGA as a challenge or imperfection to be overcome, such as they would tendencies towards getting very angry, abusing alcohol or tobacco, etc.

[Dravin]

I've always wondered how people could believe that homosexuals were born, not made by a choice... and if it wasn't a choice, why would you think that the Church would "outlaw" SGA if people couldn't help being that way?

I hope you understand that it is not the position of the Church that SGA is a choice, actually Elder Oaks had the following to say:

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: You’re saying the Church doesn’t necessarily have a position on ‘nurture or nature’

ELDER OAKS: That’s where our doctrine comes into play. The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction. Those are scientific questions — whether nature or nurture — those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on.

From: Same-Gender Attraction - LDS Newsroom

[DevtheWind]

Try being gay and spending 30 years trying to be straight and living in constant fear and then asking when i made the choice? the other way of looking at it is when did you make a clear choice not to be gay?

Thanks for the invite but no thanks, and what do you mean by, "trying to be straight"? Are you attempting to fantasize women or are you actually trying to get to know the person? As for my choice... I decided to be straight when I decided to like women.

[Wingnut]

I've always wondered how people could believe that homosexuals were born, not made by a choice... and if it wasn't a choice, why would you think that the Church would "outlaw" SGA if people couldn't help being that way?

You have much yet to learn, young one.

[Soulsearcher]

Thanks for the invite but no thanks, and what do you mean by, "trying to be straight"? Are you attempting to fantasize women or are you actually trying to get to know the person? As for my choice... I decided to be straight when I decided to like women.

Very first straight person i know who claims to have made a choice to like women, lol to make the choice means you liked men to but decided women were better

as for being straight i've been engaged twice, had numerous long term relationships with women (more than men), and yet nothing, try as i may to live the nice family oriented straight life i was miserable. Kept hoping i'd wake up one day and like women but it never happened no matter how much i wished and tried.

[DevtheWind]

You have much yet to learn, young one.

I live to learn, I ask questions to understand.

[DevtheWind]

Very first straight person i know who claims to have made a choice to like women, lol to make the choice means you liked men to but decided women were better

as for being straight i've been engaged twice, had numerous long term relationships with women (more than men), and yet nothing, try as i may to live the nice family oriented straight life i was miserable. Kept hoping i'd wake up one day and like women but it never happened no matter how much i wished and tried.

I never did state that I ever had any feelings of emotional attachment to another man, I said it was my choice to like women, doesn't mean I made the choice beforehand to check out men, so do not misinterpret me.

I'm sorry that those two engagements did not work out, nor the straight relationships, but I will still not back down on the notion that you, nor anyone else was born gay.

[Soulsearcher]

I never did state that I ever had any feelings of emotional attachment to another man, I said it was my choice to like women, doesn't mean I made the choice beforehand to check out men, so do not misinterpret me.

I'm sorry that those two engagements did not work out, nor the straight relationships, but I will still not back down on the notion that you, nor anyone else was born gay.

LOL i think you missed my point. To say you made a choice to like women means there was something to choose from. It's pointing out that if you never liked men in the first place you didn't make a choice not to like them. Sexuality isn't a choice you don't one day wake up and say i'm going to like boy/girls, you just tend to naturally respond to one or the other and sometimes both. can you really say one day you just woke up and said " as of today i'm going to be physically attracted to women"?

As for not accepting the "born that way" really not accepting things doesn't tend to change facts. The fact that many gays can identify as such before puberty as well as parents and other noticing differences in their children long before puberty starts tell that it's not just a sexual choice made once you want to be sexually active. Also the lack of ability to change orientation no matter how much desire is there says it can't be just a choice even the groups that claim to be the experts admit that other than 8% the best they can do is get rid of all sexual drive instead of changing orientation and even of the 8% it tends not to be a lasting change. There are also studies that hint at physiological differences in both male and female homosexuals though this hasn't been completely worked out as of yet.

[Leah]

Thanks for the invite but no thanks, and what do you mean by, "trying to be straight"? Are you attempting to fantasize women or are you actually trying to get to know the person? As for my choice... I decided to be straight when I decided to like women.

So you are saying that one day you woke up...thought "Hmmm.....do I want to be gay or do I want to be straight?"...pondered it for a bit...weighed the pros and cons....and then made a conscious choice to like women as opposed to men?

Do you believe that every straight person wakes up one day and makes this conscious and deliberate choice?

[DevtheWind]

LOL i think you missed my point. To say you made a choice to like women means there was something to choose from. It's pointing out that if you never liked men in the first place you didn't make a choice not to like them. Sexuality isn't a choice you don't one day wake up and say i'm going to like boy/girls, you just tend to naturally respond to one or the other and sometimes both. can you really say one day you just woke up and said " as of today i'm going to be physically attracted to women"?

As for not accepting the "born that way" really not accepting things doesn't tend to change facts. The fact that many gays can identify as such before puberty as well as parents and other noticing differences in their children long before puberty starts tell that it's not just a sexual choice made once you want to be sexually active. Also the lack of ability to change orientation no matter how much desire is there says it can't be just a choice even the groups that claim to be the experts admit that other than 8% the best they can do is get rid of all sexual drive instead of changing orientation and even of the 8% it tends not to be a lasting change. There are also studies that hint at physiological differences in both male and female homosexuals though this hasn't been completely worked out as of yet.

There is always something to choose from. I saw there were two genders, male and female. I chose to go female. I had a choice, because there was two sexes to choose from. If I had a choice between a potato or a tomato, I could choose between either. I can't be born initially choosing tomatoes over potatoes or vise versa, without an outside force influencing me. I was influenced by both my parents and my religion at an extremely young age to go straight. And responding to both, or acting as a bisexual, means that you will choose whether you go straight or homosexual... you still have a choice xD.

For the last paragraph, once you fall into something, if you pull out, you will still be tempted to do that act. If an heavy alcoholic decides to stop drinking, it doesn't mean he'll be cured forever. This is called a "relapse", and yes, it happens to everyone. Same goes for any kind of addiction or pattern of life. And what about those who DO make a successful change, even after claiming that they were born homosexual? And those who claim to be born heterosexual, and choose to go homosexual?

[DevtheWind]

So you are saying that one day you woke up...thought "Hmmm.....do I want to be gay or do I want to be straight?"...pondered it for a bit...weighed the pros and cons....and then made a conscious choice to like women as opposed to men?

Do you believe that every straight person wakes up one day and makes this conscious and deliberate choice?

I'm not saying one day I woke up and decided I would be straight, I was influenced at a young age by religion and parents to go straight, I had never considered going gay, but that doesn't mean I didn't have a choice. And what you are describing sounds more like what a bisexual goes through every morning, accept they couldn't decide and chose both.

I don't speak for every straight person, I speak for myself. If a straight guy said he was born straight, so be it. I would happily debate that with him as well.

[circusboy01]

Okay. You're all going to think I'm really dumb. What does SGA stand for?

When I started this Thread, I never thought it would continue for so long. I see a lot of different opinions on the subject. I hope this Thread hasn't caused any ill feeling between any of you Brother Ray.

[Dravin]

Okay. You're all going to think I'm really dumb. What does SGA stand for?

When I started this Thread, I never thought it would continue for so long. I see a lot of different opinions on the subject. I hope this Thread hasn't caused any ill feeling between any of you Brother Ray.

SGA = Same Gender Attraction

[circusboy01]

SGA = Same Gender Attraction

Thanks

[HEthePrimate]

I'm not saying one day I woke up and decided I would be straight, I was influenced at a young age by religion and parents to go straight, I had never considered going gay, but that doesn't mean I didn't have a choice. And what you are describing sounds more like what a bisexual goes through every morning, accept they couldn't decide and chose both.

I don't speak for every straight person, I speak for myself. If a straight guy said he was born straight, so be it. I would happily debate that with him as well.

There's nothing to debate, but I will say I was born straight. I don't mean that I was thinking about girls the instant I left my mother's womb, but that I was predisposed to think about girls when the time came. Sure enough, when the hormones kicked in, I took a keen interest in girls.

You say you were influenced at a young age by religion and parents to "go straight." What about all those people who were raised by religions and parents to "go straight" who turned out homosexual anyway? And have siblings who are straight? Our culture heavily favors being straight, but the very fact that society frowns upon and even punishes homosexuals, and yet some people are homosexual all the same, should tell us something. Why would they choose to "go against the flow" despite all the heartache and pain it causes them, when it would be so much easier to just choose to be straight? The answer seems obvious to me: They don't choose to be homosexual.