Church attitude towards Gays.

[Traveler]

Things are not always as simple as they may seem. Sexual behavior in higher “intelligent” life forms is indeed complex. However, it is most unfortunate that the issue of SSA has become more political than scientific. The sad truth is that the politics of the situation has gone from one extreme of political correctness to another and this has happened void of any scientific discovery or for that matter input. In general we should understand that acquired behavior through the lower cognitive levels of learning, by definition, involve the subconscious. Thus much of what we learn or quire as behavior is not through conscious choice. Seldom do we consciously decide to have fear of heights or spiders and since these “habits” result from subconscious responses the actual cause can be complexly void from any memory. Thus it is that many cognitive traits in the human species seem to be habits we were born with and very difficult to change. There is a joke – how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? The answer is one – but the light bulb has to want to change.

In the March 2004 issue of National Geographic Mag. is several very interesting articles about intelligent development of the brain that has direct bearing on cognitive levels of learning. Much of what we learn is not just stuffed “stored” in our memory nor is modifying that behavior just a simple task of replacing an idea – or as some would say – making a choice and it is done. What happens is that the brain often wires itself. Or in the case of a damaged brain (example by something like severe concussion or stroke) the individual must relearn activities by the brain rewiring itself. For example we are not born with the ability to walk but must learn through a process where the brain goes through a morphism where it physically changes. This is often referred to wiring or rewiring the brain. An adult that has suffered some kind of brain damage may remember walking but be unable to do so until they have relearned how to walk.

This process is not a matter of simply trying once or twice and then giving up. Often it takes more effort and time to relearn or reprogram an adult brain than it takes a small child – there are reasons for this but this is forum is perhaps not the best place to discriminate this information.

One of the greatest problems – with SSA as I see it – is overcoming years of subconscious learning. This is no simple task. But I believe that any individual facing this task must endure a very difficult uphill battle and usually without greatly needed support from anybody. There will be absolutely no support from the gay and lesbian community. Not only will there be no support but there will likely be bullying and very negative reinforcement applied. All one has to do is listen to ardent supports of the SSA and you will encounter anything but support for any person with SSA attempting to modify their behavior.

Sadly – there is very little or completely misguided support from the straight society. After some effort that will initially result in several failures the large majority of “straight” individuals will abandon support and thus the poor individual trying to make a change faces impossible odds. But I would point out at that as difficult as this task has been there have been a few – regrettably very few able to transverse this arduous relearning or reprogramming task. One additional problem is that it is currently illegal for professionals to give their assistance – not because of scientific reason but because of the current political climate.

Two things are very necessary. One is that the person involved in SSA, must understand and believe that SSA is not just problematic but without question a deviant behavior from which there is no benefit in human society and that it is likely to involve a lifetime of difficulty to overcome – and by nature of factors involved will never be completely removed from memory or wiring the brain has developed over the many years up to the point where change is tried. The second thing that is very necessary is an ever increasing support system. Someone(s) – beside G-d, giving unconditional and forever love and support. This second thing is most likely less likely that the first. It is this problem that must be changed among the saints. Indeed it is even my greatest challenge in this as it is with most LDS. But for anyone involved with any sexual difficulty as with many additions that involve pleasures – relearning or rewiring the brain is no simple task – it is not a matter of getting up some day and making a choice.

The Traveler

[Soulsearcher]

There is always something to choose from. I saw there were two genders, male and female. I chose to go female. I had a choice, because there was two sexes to choose from. If I had a choice between a potato or a tomato, I could choose between either. I can't be born initially choosing tomatoes over potatoes or vise versa, without an outside force influencing me. I was influenced by both my parents and my religion at an extremely young age to go straight. And responding to both, or acting as a bisexual, means that you will choose whether you go straight or homosexual... you still have a choice xD.

For the last paragraph, once you fall into something, if you pull out, you will still be tempted to do that act. If an heavy alcoholic decides to stop drinking, it doesn't mean he'll be cured forever. This is called a "relapse", and yes, it happens to everyone. Same goes for any kind of addiction or pattern of life. And what about those who DO make a successful change, even after claiming that they were born homosexual? And those who claim to be born heterosexual, and choose to go homosexual?

These comments show the errors in logic that have made problems for both sides. I was raised catholic with a strong LDS influence. I had no homosexual influences at all. I didn't even understand any of it til i was between 9 and 12 and by then i already knew i liked males and didn't really care for females when it came to physical attraction. So without any knowledge of homosexuality and raised with extremely strong influences to be straight, out of no where i'm homosexual. Also remember this was in a very conservative area 30 years ago when gay wasn't every where and it was beyond taboo to even mention.

Now here's the other possible error in logic. How did i fall into something that i couldn't get out of when i was young? I couldn't explain why i liked boys and not girls. It scared the crap out of me and i fought to be rid of it. I wanted to be like everyone else, to fit in with my friends sharing their crude thought and dreams, to not seem like this outcast. I didn't date boys, or do anything with them, didn't even really admit to myself i liked them. I chased girls, tried to get dates and just tried to be one of the guys. So with no knowledge that there was a term for what i was feeling, no influence and never partaking...there i was a homosexual. I claimed to be heterosexual for 30 years, i knew i wasn't but it's safer to make a claim that you are normal, more so if you live in a setting that you've seen doesn't react well. As for those who change, it's less than 8% than those who try who come close to actually changing and even then a large number of those admit it was never a change, just them trying to fit back into the norm due to pressure from others.

[annewandering]

One thing I find amazing is that anyone actually feels sexual attraction to anyone before puberty. I must have been retarded sexually because it just didnt happen for me. Now as far as friendship goes well I had little interest in having boys for friends, except one, but that seems more cultural than anything but pretty normal, at least at that time.

So it makes me wonder if 'gay' people are claiming to have premature puberty? If so it actually might explain the same sex focus since earlier than puberty most of us really arent interested in the opposite sex, sexually. Mostly I am just doubting the whole idea.

[Jenamarie]

And you have echoed the exact sentiment of LDS church leaders in what you've just written about loving them. So anyone who is doing what you have described, casting them out of the family and whatnot isn't living the Gospel. We'll just have to look the other way with militant Christians who haven't learned from our prophet...yet.:)

The other thing to take a closer look at is this...By your attitude, are you too harshly judging those who are unkind? This attitude of accepting the individual's SGA is fairly new and perhaps they are struggling with it. It's pretty hard to spin long held beliefs on a dime. We are allowed to stuggle with concepts aren't we?

Yes it is the Church's position, but, sadly, many of the members, in MY experience, do an extremely poor job of echoing it.

ETA: I understand that some people will always struggle with "accepting" people with SGA in any form (even if it's just to be nice to them, even while they continue to vehemently disagree with them). I just really really wish it would move along a little bit faster.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Jenamarie

[Jenamarie]

One thing I find amazing is that anyone actually feels sexual attraction to anyone before puberty. I must have been retarded sexually because it just didnt happen for me. Now as far as friendship goes well I had little interest in having boys for friends, except one, but that seems more cultural than anything but pretty normal, at least at that time.

So it makes me wonder if 'gay' people are claiming to have premature puberty? If so it actually might explain the same sex focus since earlier than puberty most of us really arent interested in the opposite sex, sexually. Mostly I am just doubting the whole idea.

Perhaps not sexual attraction, but attraction in general. When I was a preteen I remember dreaming about when I reached that magical age of 16, all the different BOYS that would take me out on fun dates. There was absolutely nothing about that thought that made me feel weird or uncomfortable. From those with SGA that I've spoken to, those kinds of thoughts as a kid *did* make them feel "off", even if they never quiet went all the way to considering dating someone of their own gender.

[annewandering]

Perhaps not sexual attraction, but attraction in general. When I was a preteen I remember dreaming about when I reached that magical age of 16, all the different BOYS that would take me out on fun dates. There was absolutely nothing about that thought that made me feel weird or uncomfortable. From those with SGA that I've spoken to, those kinds of thoughts as a kid *did* make them feel "off", even if they never quiet went all the way to considering dating someone of their own gender.

Interesting. I cant help but wonder if that was cultural, although I do remember thinking wedding dresses were very pretty. Then again my oldest son was quite entranced with barrettes. I was enthralled with jeeps. One of my brothers liked having his hair curled with curlers. I guess we were all messed up?

[Jenamarie]

Interesting. I cant help but wonder if that was cultural, although I do remember thinking wedding dresses were very pretty. Then again my oldest son was quite entranced with barrettes. I was enthralled with jeeps. One of my brothers liked having his hair curled with curlers. I guess we were all messed up?

But barrettes and jeeps and hair curlers aren't, by themselves, sexual. Yes, it IS cultural that they're associated strongly with specific genders, but I don't think it necessarily speaks to someone's sexual orientation to like things traditionally considered "male" or "female". (I mean, there are paintings of the founding fathers in leggings, wigs and heels, and I don't hear people debating their sexual orientations because of that! ). But who you feel naturally inclined to have a *romantic* relationship with (not just friendship), even if you're not necessarily mature enough yet to realize the sexual nature of it (like little girls dreaming about marrying princes when they grow up), speaks more to that, IMO.

[annewandering]

And I am not sure the dating thing and prince charming are not social as opposed to inclination. It really is hard to decide which is which.

I do agree that we feel like boys or like girls as an identity but if you bring sexuality into it then its going to take some convincing.

[Guest]

One thing I find amazing is that anyone actually feels sexual attraction to anyone before puberty. I must have been retarded sexually because it just didnt happen for me. Now as far as friendship goes well I had little interest in having boys for friends, except one, but that seems more cultural than anything but pretty normal, at least at that time.

So it makes me wonder if 'gay' people are claiming to have premature puberty? If so it actually might explain the same sex focus since earlier than puberty most of us really arent interested in the opposite sex, sexually. Mostly I am just doubting the whole idea.

Predisposition to homosexuality can be observed in some young children. I point out my classmate since first grade (6 years old) - Marcelo - in the Philippines. There was no question, even then, he was effiminate. He walked like a girl, talked like a girl, have mannerisms and attitudes like a girl, did what you would expect out of a girl. Grew up in a devout Catholic household going to a Catholic school. It was no surprise that when we started high school (11 years old), he was attracted to what girls are attracted to. If he was in the public school instead of the Catholic school, he would have gotten beat up instead of just gotten picked on, because even though Catholics believe homosexual relationships are sinful, they do encourage them to dedicate their lives in a vow of chastity in the Holy Priesthood - and they always are in need of priests. Okay, I'm open to the discussion of gay priests in the Catholic Church.

Marcelo did not become a priest. He lives in London now. As a girl.

[Wingnut]

One thing I find amazing is that anyone actually feels sexual attraction to anyone before puberty. I must have been retarded sexually because it just didnt happen for me. Now as far as friendship goes well I had little interest in having boys for friends, except one, but that seems more cultural than anything but pretty normal, at least at that time.

So it makes me wonder if 'gay' people are claiming to have premature puberty? If so it actually might explain the same sex focus since earlier than puberty most of us really arent interested in the opposite sex, sexually. Mostly I am just doubting the whole idea.

I was going to suggest the same thing as Jena -- it's not necessarily "sexual" in nature early on, but I remember having crushes on boys in kindergarten and first grade. Young children watch TV and see adults around them, and they know about pairings. I don't think that true sexual attraction can exist without a knowledge of what sex is. One that note, my four year old might say she wants to marry her friend Luke, but it doesn't mean she's sexually attracted to him.

(I tend to think that homosexuality is more of a nature thing than a nurture thing, though I know that many LDS disagree with me. I also recognize that what I'm saying here lends itself to a nurture argument.)

Then again my oldest son was quite entranced with barrettes. I was enthralled with jeeps. One of my brothers liked having his hair curled with curlers. I guess we were all messed up?

And I am not sure the dating thing and prince charming are not social as opposed to inclination. It really is hard to decide which is which.

I think it's a little of both. It's hard to distinguish though, because there have been several generations now of specific gender-role child-raising. I do remember reading something a few years back that said that kids actually learn to self-identify their gender not by what they play with or how you treat them, etc., but instead by who they associate with. A girl who only has male friends in the formative years, for example, might be (might be) more likely to self-identify as male instead of as female than is a young girl who plays with other girls regularly. Personally, I think a good mix of friends is best.

As for the princess notion though, there's a book out there that I've heard a lot about lately but haven't actually read, called Cinderella Ate My Daughter. I consider myself moderately feminist, but from what I hear, it's too extremely feminist to be taken terribly seriously.

I do agree that we feel like boys or like girls as an identity but if you bring sexuality into it then its going to take some convincing.

Again, I don't think it's sexual attraction necessarily, so much as natural gravitation.

[carlimac]

One of the most puzzling things for me is the notion that homosexuality isn't just a physical attraction. They claim it's emotional, too. Before I was married I had deep emotional bonds with my girlfriends. I still do actually but I'm not lesbian or bi-sexual. I had a few deep friendships with guys before marriage, but my best friend now is my husband- obviously a man. When taking sexual attraction completely out of the mix, I'd have an impossible time differentiating my emotional bonds by gender. In fact, if anything I had more and deeper bonds with women than with men.

So that argument that homosexuality is not just sexual doesn't make sense.

I asked my husband's opinion on this last night and he (who is most definitely heterosexual) said he has emotional attractions and bonds with "people" and that he isn't attracted more to one gender or another that way. Some of his mission companions were more emotionally/personality attractive to him than others. There were some he immediately formed friendships with. Others not.

I'm not a psychologist nor have I studied the laws of attraction, but something tells me that the reason homosexuals have deep bonds with each other and are attracted to one another beyond sex is because they have SGA in common. I just don't believe that it's universally true that those with SGA can't form emotional bonds with the opposite gender.

Edited May 2, 2012 by carlimac

[JudoMinja]

And I am not sure the dating thing and prince charming are not social as opposed to inclination. It really is hard to decide which is which.

I do agree that we feel like boys or like girls as an identity but if you bring sexuality into it then its going to take some convincing.

This piqued my interest, mostly due to your "Prince Charming" reference. Because, as a child, I never fantasized about being a princess for Prince Charming to come and rescue. Even when watching movies like Sleeping Beauty or Snow White, I never pictured myself in the role of the princess. The thought of taking on such a role as a "maiden in distress" simply did not cross my mind.

Instead, when playing pretend, and even in my dreams- I was always the one doing the rescuing. I specifically remember playing "Sonic the Hedgehog" or "Mario" with my sister and our friends, and I would always insist on being Sonic or Mario, while my sister would be Tails or Princess Peach in need of rescuing. When playing the 3 Musketeers, I'd always be D'artagnan. And when we would play power rangers, I was always one of the male rangers- or Ninja Turtles... I always took on the masculine role of the Prince, the Hero, or the rescuer.

As I grew older and started maturing, I was very much a Tom Boy. I was mostly interested in the kinds of things the boys were interested in and even preferred boyish clothing. Almost all of my friends were boys, and I was often seen as just another "one of the guys". I exhibited absolutely no interest in dating or had any feelings of attraction toward anyone, be they male or female. Thoughts about my sexuality never even crossed my mind, until one of my few female friends- who happened to be a lesbian- attempted to ask me out on a date. I was not in any way interested in her, and her attempts to flirt with me just made me feel icky. I told her that I certainly wouldn't stop being her friend, but I just wasn't interested in dating, and we remained good friends for quite some time.

But that started a short period for me as I started wondering if I was actually homosexual myself and just hadn't figured it out yet. Such thoughts had never even entered my mind until then, but as I started adding up what I was interested in, how I pictured myself, etc... I really started wondering. It wasn't until my second year of college that I started actually feeling anything like sexual attraction toward someone and had my first "crush", and I realized that I am indeed attracted to men. :) But had I voiced my concerns to others while I was trying to figure out my sexual orientation, I had many friends that might have influenced me to think I was attracted to females and my family would probably have reacted very adversely, causing me to feel hurt and rejected. Sometimes, I still wonder if someday I do find myself feeling attracted to a female... what would I do about it- as far as who would I tell/talk to about it?

This just goes to show though that what we show interest in, how we see ourselves, etc can be extremely fluid. My attitudes, thoughts, behaviors, interests, etc are extremely masculine, but I still self-identify very strongly as female and am attracted to males. We cannot rely on any of these outside "markers" for determining whether or not someone is going to feel attracted to another of the same gender or feel themselves self-identifying as the opposite gender. That sexual attraction is entirely biological and I don't believe it can be controlled. I agree with the homosexual community in that you cannot change who you are attracted to- it just happens. What matters though, is what people do about that attraction. If, someday, I were to find myself feeling attracted to a female, I would treat it the same way I do when I feel particularly attracted to a guy I would never want to date- ignore it.

[Wingnut]

One of the most puzzling things for me is the notion that homosexuality isn't just a physical attraction. They claim it's emotional, too. Before I was married I had deep emotional bonds with my girlfriends. I still do actually but I'm not lesbian or bi-sexual. I had a few deep friendships with guys before marriage, but my best friend now is my husband- obviously a man. When taking sexual attraction completely out of the mix, I'd have an impossible time differentiating my emotional bonds by gender. In fact, if anything I had more and deeper bonds with women than with men.

So that argument that homosexuality is not just sexual doesn't make sense.

Your attraction to your husband is both sexual/physical and emotional, right? Why can't a homosexual person have an attraction that is both sexual/physical and emotional also? I'm not sure that I've ever heard a gay person claim that their attraction was solely emotional and not at all physical. But it's also not solely sexual/physical. There are both elements.

[DevtheWind]

Your attraction to your husband is both sexual/physical and emotional, right? Why can't a homosexual person have an attraction that is both sexual/physical and emotional also? I'm not sure that I've ever heard a gay person claim that their attraction was solely emotional and not at all physical. But it's also not solely sexual/physical. There are both elements.

I've heard different from a bunch of lesbian friends I have... They say they are only attracted to women because of the bodies, and that once they got what they want, they move to another... lesbian friend had 3 GF's a week for about 2 1/2 weeks.

[carlimac]

Your attraction to your husband is both sexual/physical and emotional, right? Why can't a homosexual person have an attraction that is both sexual/physical and emotional also? I'm not sure that I've ever heard a gay person claim that their attraction was solely emotional and not at all physical. But it's also not solely sexual/physical. There are both elements.

What I'm saying and suggesting is that whatever emotional attraction there is between two gays isn't part of homosexuality. It's part of being human. It's because they have something in common. While some say "But SGA isn't just about sex..." and then go on to discuss the implications of having this incredible bond with their same gender, I believe they can have equally deep relationships/friendship/bonds, whatever you want to call it with the opposite gender, too. If they can't, that is most definitely a psychological issue and has nothing to do with simply being homosexual.

[Wingnut]

I've heard different from a bunch of lesbian friends I have... They say they are only attracted to women because of the bodies, and that once they got what they want, they move to another... lesbian friend had 3 GF's a week for about 2 1/2 weeks.

Why do have I have a hard time believing that three 15-year-old girls who are likely experimenting with their sexuality and certainly can't keep their hormones in check are representative of the general homosexual population?

Anyone?

What I'm saying and suggesting is that whatever emotional attraction there is between two gays isn't part of homosexuality. It's part of being human. It's because they have something in common. While some say "But SGA isn't just about sex..." and then go on to discuss the implications of having this incredible bond with their same gender, I believe they can have equally deep relationships/friendship/bonds, whatever you want to call it with the opposite gender, too. If they can't, that is most definitely a psychological issue and has nothing to do with simply being homosexual.

Ah, I see what you're saying. I misunderstood before. I understand this argument. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I think it's reasonable.

[Guest]

Gender-role child-raising. Let me say something about this.

Gender roles did not come into play by somebody just randomly assigning what is boy and what is girl. Gender-roles came about as a societal response to what comes naturally to the vast majority of girls and the vast majority of boys, thereby, playing up their strengths and downplaying their weaknesses.

So, a person who displays girl tendencies with the female genitals to match goes about her merry way playing up her strengths and mitigating her weaknesses with full societal support. Same for a person displaying boy tendencies with the boy genitals to match.

The challenge arises when a person shows girl tendencies but do not come with matching genitals. Society then tries to mold his strengths according to what his genitals are supposed to come with which causes confusion for both the boy and the society.

Now, per my observation (nothing scientific about this, of course), the degree with which this physical "non-matchingness" comes in is different for different people. There are people like Marcelo who display all the girl tendencies both emotionally, socially, and physically all the way to physical attraction. Another classmate of mine from high school - Emmanuel - exhibits girl tendencies emotionally and socially but is physically attracted to girls. A classmate of mine from college (15 years old) - Glenn - exhibits all the boy tendencies emotionally, socially, and physically but is only physically attracted to men (surprised the heck out of me - I just found out he was gay when we were already in our mid-30's) - and what do you know, he's living with another gay man who displays all the girl tendencies including physical attraction. Kinda interesting to see because you got Glenn, the man of the house, and his "partner", who is the woman of the house.

No, none of these examples I show is a "nurture" thing. All 3 of them went to Catholic school with me from devout Catholic households.

Edited May 2, 2012 by anatess

[Leah]

I'm not saying one day I woke up and decided I would be straight, I was influenced at a young age by religion and parents to go straight, I had never considered going gay, but that doesn't mean I didn't have a choice. And what you are describing sounds more like what a bisexual goes through every morning, accept they couldn't decide and chose both.

I don't speak for every straight person, I speak for myself. If a straight guy said he was born straight, so be it. I would happily debate that with him as well.

But you said you made a choice. At what point did you make that choice? At what point did you make a conscious decision to be straight?

Your comments regarding bisexuality just further illustrates your ignorance on the subject.

If you are saying that straight people are not born straight, either, you are stilly saying that EVERYONE makes a choice as to whether they are gay or straight. I ask you again, when did you make that choice? Why did you make it at the time that you did?

You speak of being "influenced" by parents and "religion" to be straight. Are you saying that had you been raised in a different environment, you would have chosen to be gay? Are saying our sexual orientation is only influenced by how we are raised? How do you explain children all raised together in the same family/environment, and some are gay and some are straight? Didn't they all have the same influence?

And if you are saying it is by choice only, then doesn't that suggest that any one of us can make a choice in either direction at any time? Are you saying that if you wanted to....tomorrow you could cast aside your early influences and be attracted to men?

I didn't make a choice to be heterosexual. It's just how I am. I never had to stop and thing....gee....hmm....do I want to have sex with men or with women?

[olytitan]

All I know as truth is this. God loves all of his children. God knows all of his children. God is the only one who at this point truly understands everyone and knows their personal trials and struggles. He is the only one to judge, and for that I am glad. I can care about people who are gay/lesbian/bi-sexual...whatever. I do not have to approve of their life and agree with it but I can care about them as people. It doesn't mean we as a church or I myself have to lower our standards.

I think there could be lots of reasons why people struggle with gay etc. I often wonder if a blood test was done for everyone...what the XY or XXY genes would show of these people who feel they are inside the wrong type of body. Some people are born with some of both genitilia either visually or only known by ultrasound or other testing. Some people have extra hormones of the other gender because of it. I am glad it is not our place to judge and figure it out. I'm happy knowing that God knows the true identity and true gender of people while we may not. We may think of it as so black and white, but with this physical life and the things that go wrong...whose to say that something in a fetus/baby didn't develop properly the way it was meant to. I really don't know. I think the gene test for XY, XXY would be the best bet for what gender a person's body was meant to be but I've never heard of them really checking that with any studys and people who struggle with the feelings of being the wrong gender or attracted to the same gender. There are so many mental things too that could influence things. We know brains are not perfect. Mental illness is a true problem. Some of it could be problems in brains. Some could be problems with hormones or organs that are developed that shouldn't have. Just some thoughts. I have extended family members who married and had children and turned lesbian, others who never married, most likely gay and lesbian respectively. I care about them all. I don't agree with the lifestyle - but who am I to say what their body and mind think/feel they are. I am glad I don't have to live with it myself as I have other trials in life of my own.

[Wingnut]

A woman who is a homosexual doesn't necessarily self-identify as being male (or that she should have been male). She's just a woman who is attracted to other women. Please don't conflate the two.

[olytitan]

All I know as truth is this. God loves all of his children. God knows all of his children. God is the only one who at this point truly understands everyone and knows their personal trials and struggles. He is the only one to judge, and for that I am glad. I can care about people who are gay/lesbian/bi-sexual...whatever. I do not have to approve of their life and agree with it but I can care about them as people. It doesn't mean we as a church or I myself have to lower our standards.

I think there could be lots of reasons why people struggle with gay etc. I often wonder if a blood test was done for everyone...what the XY or XXY genes would show of these people who feel they are inside the wrong type of body. Some people are born with some of both genitilia either visually or only known by ultrasound or other testing. Some people have extra hormones of the other gender because of it. I am glad it is not our place to judge and figure it out. I'm happy knowing that God knows the true identity and true gender of people while we may not. We may think of it as so black and white, but with this physical life and the things that go wrong...whose to say that something in a fetus/baby didn't develop properly the way it was meant to. I really don't know. I think the gene test for XY, XXY would be the best bet for what gender a person's body was meant to be but I've never heard of them really checking that with any studys and people who struggle with the feelings of being the wrong gender or attracted to the same gender. There are so many mental things too that could influence things. We know brains are not perfect. Mental illness is a true problem. Some of it could be problems in brains. Some could be problems with hormones or organs that are developed that shouldn't have. Just some thoughts. I have extended family members who married and had children and turned lesbian, others who never married, most likely gay and lesbian respectively. I care about them all. I don't agree with the lifestyle - but who am I to say what their body and mind think/feel they are. I am glad I don't have to live with it myself as I have other trials in life of my own.

[pntkl]

I think there could be lots of reasons why people struggle with gay etc. I often wonder if a blood test was done for everyone...what the XY or XXY genes would show of these people who feel they are inside the wrong type of body. Some people are born with some of both genitalia either visually or only known by ultrasound or other testing. Some people have extra hormones of the other gender because of it. I am glad it is not our place to judge and figure it out. I'm happy knowing that God knows the true identity and true gender of people while we may not. We may think of it as so black and white, but with this physical life and the things that go wrong...whose to say that something in a fetus/baby didn't develop properly the way it was meant to. I really don't know. I think the gene test for XY, XXY would be the best bet for what gender a person's body was meant to be but I've never heard of them really checking that with any studies and people who struggle with the feelings of being the wrong gender or attracted to the same gender. There are so many mental things too that could influence things. We know brains are not perfect. Mental illness is a true problem. Some of it could be problems in brains. Some could be problems with hormones or organs that are developed that shouldn't have. Just some thoughts. I have extended family members who married and had children and turned lesbian, others who never married, most likely gay and lesbian respectively. I care about them all. I don't agree with the lifestyle - but who am I to say what their body and mind think/feel they are. I am glad I don't have to live with it myself as I have other trials in life of my own.

The Merciful Obtain Mercy - general-conference

This topic of judging others could actually be taught in a two-word sermon. When it comes to hating, gossiping, ignoring, ridiculing, holding grudges, or wanting to cause harm, please apply the following:

Stop it!

It’s that simple. We simply have to stop judging others and replace judgmental thoughts and feelings with a heart full of love for God and His children. God is our Father. We are His children. We are all brothers and sisters. I don’t know exactly how to articulate this point of not judging others with sufficient eloquence, passion, and persuasion to make it stick. I can quote scripture, I can try to expound doctrine, and I will even quote a bumper sticker I recently saw. It was attached to the back of a car whose driver appeared to be a little rough around the edges, but the words on the sticker taught an insightful lesson. It read, “Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you.”

Biology and sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You touched upon something important. That is, there is insufficient research or revelation to definitively judge this. I'm not simply talking about person to person judgments. Without a concrete scientific answer, to whether or not one is genetically pre-disposed to homosexuality, that is largely why the U.S. Supreme Court doesn't want to touch this issue with a ten foot pole.

Anyone that cares enough for their brothers and sisters, to realize that we all sin, just differently; they get it. They are wise to our Savior's teachings--they show mercy. Brother Uchtdorf speaks about judgment, with full agreement, even above reproach from the Godhead.

Love,

T.J. Wood

[carlimac]

Okay. You're all going to think I'm really dumb. What does SGA stand for?

When I started this Thread, I never thought it would continue for so long. I see a lot of different opinions on the subject. I hope this Thread hasn't caused any ill feeling between any of you Brother Ray.

Don't worry. The thread didn't cause any ill feelings that weren't already there.

[DevtheWind]

While I am slowly responding to everyone's replies made to me, I have but one question. Since we are all children of God, and SGA is a temptation by Satan, why would God implant us with such a temptation at birth? We may have physical deformities and mental/emotional illnesses implanted within us. But this is going against what God created us for, and against the natural purpose of the opposite sex (in marriage, then bearing children).

Boyd K. Packer made a great statement on this and you are welcome to look up the statement.

Edited May 2, 2012 by DevtheWind
Guess I wasn't clear enough

[log2]

[W]hy would God implant us with such a temptation?

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

2 Nephi 2:29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.