Why is Faith the 1st principle?

[cryophil]

It seems that often we skip over assessing whether faith should be pre-eminent, and just accept it on, excuse the pun, faith.

But I have wondered why Heavenly Father, the Supreme Intelligence, would use Faith as a first principle, instead of study and fact.

It makes no sense that faith would be the way to test us. It makes more sense to me that facts and intelligence and knowledge of what actually is would be a better test. I believe that Omniscience and Intelligence requires rational thought and striving to find was is true from the principle of learning and knowledge rather than trusting and feeling truth.

___

ADD: I think a lot of people confused the idea of Faith with Hope. We all need hope to motivate us to act. I am not talking about that. I meant, faith as belief in that which is not evidenced nor will be in this life. That is, faith = trust when the facts are against supporting the concept or idea. As an example, the Book of Mormon makes several claims about a society in ancient America which are contradicted by several facts uncovered in the past hundred years. Having faith in the Book of Mormon is difficult for me because of these facts. I struggle.

Edited May 9, 2012 by cryophil

[Guest]

If everything was undeniable, undoubted fact, what would the test be?

[cryophil]

If everything was undeniable, undoubted fact, what would the test be?

Thanks for your response Eowyn.

I think that undeniable, undoubted fact is not ever going to be found. Look at science. It is controversial enough, even with the method of observation, verification, validation and reporting in peer-reviewed journals. There's no consensus there for everything. Even the specifics of Gravity are still a controversy.

Also, if I wanted to test to see what someone was really made of, I would remove the concept of God, of an afterlife, of anything regarding heaven (reward) or "hell" (punishment). Then you can see what a person does truly from the inner self without being tugged at with threats or promises. What they then do shows what they are really made out of.

To me that is far more revealing.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It seems that often we skip over assessing whether faith should be pre-eminent, and just accept it on, excuse the pun, faith.

But I have wondered why Heavenly Father, the Supreme Intelligence, would use Faith as a first principle, instead of study and fact.

It makes no sense that faith would be the way to test us. It makes more sense to me that facts and intelligence and knowledge of what actually is would be a better test. I believe that Omniscience and Intelligence requires rational thought and striving to find was is true from the principle of learning and knowledge rather than trusting and feeling truth.

It makes perfect sense because whether you accept it or not the fastest way to learn is by faith. When your parents taught you how to speak you took it on faith that what they were teaching you is correct. You didn't say to yourself 'I don't want to learn that until I can come up with my own language first and decide whether English is the best language to learn or not or the correct way to speak'. You first took it on faith that what they were saying is correct and you learned. If you had to invent language all on your own with no outside, faith required learning, you wouldn't be sending messages by the computer today.

If your teacher in Kindergarten said, "these are the primary colors ...", what would happen if a child said, 'I don't believe you, I am going to investigate this myself until I have all the facts and I will get back to you on this.(at least, those were her thoughts, not that a Kindergardner would talk that way)" That child, if she were to go out and try to establish what a "primary color" would mean and why all on her own, without any faith requiring assistance of any kind, would still be working on that project for the majority of her life and all the other kids who took it on faith would be well advanced.

So, whether we like it or not, faith is the fastest way to learn and all of us use it more than we realize. The real question is what are you going to have faith in? Faith in a being with all the answers or faith in men who have a very small portion of the answers.

[Just_A_Guy]

It seems that often we skip over assessing whether faith should be pre-eminent, and just accept it on, excuse the pun, faith.

But I have wondered why Heavenly Father, the Supreme Intelligence, would use Faith as a first principle, instead of study and fact.

Why would one study if one didn't have faith that the study might at least be profitable?

[EarlJibbs]

Also, if I wanted to test to see what someone was really made of, I would remove the concept of God, of an afterlife, of anything regarding heaven (reward) or "hell" (punishment). Then you can see what a person does truly from the inner self without being tugged at with threats or promises. What they then do shows what they are really made out of.

To me that is far more revealing.

We already know that there are good people that do extroardinary things and have no faith. Removing the knowledge of God would do nothing to deter that. We are all born with the light of Christ within us, or as some like to say, your concience.

You may think that faith is doing something blindly, but what about investigating and receiving heavenly answers to prayers? Then is it really blindly? If I pray to Heavenly Father if I should help someone (to keep it simple) and receive an asnwer through the Holy Ghost, then I do what what the answer was (in this case, to help someone) is it truely through faith alone? Or am I now acting on knowledge from the Holy Ghost based on the faith that God would answer my prayers? Faith isnt always leaping into the air hoping that something catches you. You can have true faith and still know for a surety.

Our purpose on earth is not solely to be judged. The plan of happiness is fulfilled by being judged (hopefully judged being righteous), but prior to that you receive your body, we make covenants and receive promissed blessings, we beciome resuected to receive a perfect immortal body(that everyone receives regardless of actions), then we are judged to receive our glory.

[bytor2112]

It's not.....the first principle. Faith in Jesus Christ IS......

[MarginOfError]

It's not.....the first principle. Faith in Jesus Christ IS......

I was about to say the same thing.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are

first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ;

second, repentance;

third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins;

fourth, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Article of Faith 4)

So I would submit that the blanket term "faith" is not the same as "faith in the Lord Jesus Christ." Having faith in Christ means that we believe he assumed the role of Savior and that his atonement can heal us and sanctify us. I con't know of any objective and measurable method by which we could investigate that.

Furthermore, faith is essential to exploration and development of knowledge. The scriptures even acknowledge this when Alma says

But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words. (Alma 32:27)

The faith part is where you say, "There might be something here. I want to look into this." At that point, you begin to experiment and as you gain experiences with the Spirit, your faith becomes more like knowledge.

I work in a scientific field, and believe it or not, faith is a critical component to the development of scientific discovery. It starts with that same assessment--"I believe there might be something here. I'm going to pursue this further." After some experimentation and analysis of the results, faith turns into knowledge either for or against the original faith. The difference in matters of religion are that the results are typically emotional--that is they are felt, and are not easily subjected to the same rigors of statistical analysis.

I'll also add one more thing. Speaking to Oliver Cowdery, the Lord said,

I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart...I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. (D&C 8:2; 9:8)

Both faith and knowledge are important parts of our spiritual development. We shouldn't discount one over the other. But we should remember that the first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; and the full phrase is necessary.

[skalenfehl]

Why is Faith the first principle....

First we must acknowledge that all the Lord requires of us are heavenly things. If we submit to heavenly laws, we will receive heavenly rewards. If we try to use worldly means to obtain heavenly gifts, we will fall miserably short every time. The scriptures give us example after example, time after time. Relying on the arm of flesh will leave you empty and asking all the wrong questions rather than asking the right ones.

There is a veil that separates our crude, finite world from the heavenly world and none of our senses can breach it except one and that is the one, which the Lord has seen in His infinite wisdom to use: our sense of feeling. You see, even our eyes can deceive us and to be convinced is not the same as being converted. How many countless people witnessed Christ's miracles and still rejected him? How many people witnessed miracle after miracle and still stoned the prophets? Cast them into dens of wild beasts? Into ovens of fire?

But it is the Holy Ghost, which converts us to the Lord. It is through our hearts that It converts us. Not our eyes. It is a change of heart that God requires of us. Even a broken heart and a contrite spirit. No proud man is worthy of a God who descended below us all to suffer every pain for our sake.

Faith is our driving force. It is a catalyst. It is what breaks our hearts and causes us to repent of our worldly ways to seek healing from only He who can succor us. There is only one way, one path, one gate that we can enter, and he employeth no man there. Only through Christ can we enter in at the way and it is by His laws, which if we follow, will give us access. No other empirical or worldly formula will gain us heavenly access. It begins with faith.

[Guest]

I believe that Omniscience and Intelligence requires rational thought and striving to find was is true from the principle of learning and knowledge rather than trusting and feeling truth.

This sentence doesn't make sense to me. In the LDS Church, Spiritual Intelligence requires rational thought and striving to find truth from the principle of learning and knowledge. So, I'm not quite sure why you think it doesn't.

[JudoMinja]

Faith is an attitude, a motivation, and a hope. Tell me... if you have hope in nothing... what will you accomplish? Nothing. There are countless examples of the great feats man has found himself capable of when he believed in his strength, courage, and ability to accomplish those feats. When we cease to believe... we cease to acheive. Faith gives us purpose and direction- and faith in JESUS CHRIST will never lead us astray.

Without Christ, our life has no purpose. Without the atonment, without forgiveness, without mercy, without grace... everything we do is for naught. Faith in Christ is the catalyst for pursuing a life of purpose, as such faith will drive an individual to acheive the impossible. Driven by that faith, an individual will desire to study His ministry and to act on His teachings. With the faith of even a mustard seed, individials will be able to perform miracles on the scale of moving mountains.

If you will note my signature- you will see I have quotes pertaining to being true to what we believe... I also greatly enjoy inspirational books and films in which individuals find themselves pushed beyond their limits and take a leap of faith.. who CHOOSE to believe in themselves, their abilities, and in the many good things of the world. There are many reasons for us to doubt. Many frailties, weaknesses, and the low expectations of the worldly. But faith is a power all it's own, and without it... the worldly may as well be right.

And of all the things in which we could place our faith- Jesus Christ is the only thing that will not falter, will not fail, and will not leave us comfortless. He is our Lord, He is our Savior, He is our Redeemer- and He is the truth, the light, and the Way. He gives us purpose. He gives us direction. How could anything else possibly stand as the first principle of the gospel?

[RipplecutBuddha]

I would also suggest reading a short book titled "Lectures on Faith". I think it will explain the importance faith plays in our lives (and the importanct faith plays in religion specifically) far better than can be done here. Be prepared for deep thought though because the book gets deep very quickly.

My favorite part is where the fact is pointed out that faith is the basic motivating element of all human action. To use examples similar to the text itself, what person would bother eating if they had no faith that by so doing their hunger would be abated? What man would embark upon a massive engineering project if he didn't have faith in his own designs or the ability of others to build what he had designed? Would you go to work if you didn't have faith in getting paid for your time?

Faith is merely acting on a belief based upon facts that are, as yet, unproven. The truth of the matter is, everything we do is based upon faith in some way. Even begining this discussion has required your faith that it would be an educational exchange of ideas.

So if faith can be demonstrated to be so essential to everyday human existence, what then could its importance be in our religious endeavours, if not the very first essential ingredient to any activity directly connected to them? If you have no faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, what would be the purpose of pursuing any further religious growth? On the other hand, if you DO have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, what is to prevent you from seeking any and all religious growth you can experience through his Gospel?

[Finrock]

Good afternoon cryophil! I hope you are doing well today. :)

I can think of no better lecture on faith than found in the Book of Mormon. Please read Alma Chapter 32. It answers the basic reasons as to why faith and not some other method. One of the reasons that hasn't been mentioned and which I think is a significant reason as to why we are to live by faith is found in Alma 32:17-19 which reads:

"17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?"

If you note in verse 19 Alma is teaching what I believe is the idea that requiring us to live by faith was an act of mercy. Having a perfect knowledge of something does not make us immune to committing sin. So imagine how much more responsible we are for our actions if we have a perfect knowledge of the truth and still break God's laws? That we are required to live by faith allows God to exercise a greater degree of mercy when we do break a law that we are trying to live by faith.

Regards,

Finrock

[rameumptom]

It is the story of two trees: the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (TreeK), and the Tree of Life (TreeL). The TreeK gives us fruit of the sort you speak of. It teaches us about the things around us that we can touch, feel, see, or hear. We can learn from planting, nurturing and harvesting. We can learn from the painful and pleasurable moments. We can learn from light and darkness, health and sickness. We also learn that just as each of us is born, we will all die someday.

But there are some things we just cannot learn from the fruit of the TreeK. We cannot know whether there will be an after life. We cannot know whether there will be a resurrection. We cannot know if God exists. In fact, the Treek can get in the way of finding out such things. We find the mummified remains of Pharaohs, ancient Peruvians, and ancient hikers of the Italian Alps, and the evidence suggests there is no resurrection or after life.

So, there is the Tree of Life, which in Alma 32, we learn does involve evidence, but it is a different evidence than we get from the TreeK. We cannot touch or see the evidence with the naked eye and hand. But we can have spiritual experiences that witness of such things. These things are based on faith. We must have faith, or at least a desire to know spiritual things, in order to receive the spiritual witness. For the person who adamantly remains with the TreeK, he only seeks signs to justify himself, not expressing any faith, but insisting that all knowledge must be given through the earthly filter of the TreeK.

So, faith becomes the very first principle of the gospel. A person can perfectly keep all the commandments, yet without faith in Christ, cannot be made perfect nor resurrect.

In the Lectures on Faith, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon explained that faith is the great moving force in the universe. Faith is based on knowledge, but more spiritual than earthly knowledge. For example, Jesus Christ could heal the blind and lame without first understanding the medical terminology or having the surgical skills to do so the TreeK way.

This faith power can grow as we grow spiritually. It opens the door to have many things revealed to us that telescopes and microscopes cannot see. Eventually, our faith becomes strong enough to let us inside the veil, and to see God face to face. There is no scientific method created that can do that, as it is all limited by its foundational concepts. Those anchored entirely to the TreeK say, "let me see and then I'll believe", but that is not belief, but knowledge. Laman and Lemuel saw an angel and still did not believe. Judas Iscariot saw all the miracles of Jesus, and yet still did not believe.

With the Tree of Life, one must be willing to say, "I believe, now please let me also see".

[cryophil]

Good afternoon cryophil! I hope you are doing well today. :)

I can think of no better lecture on faith than found in the Book of Mormon. Please read Alma Chapter 32. It answers the basic reasons as to why faith and not some other method. One of the reasons that hasn't been mentioned and which I think is a significant reason as to why we are to live by faith is found in Alma 32:17-19 which reads:

"17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?"

If you note in verse 19 Alma is teaching what I believe is the idea that requiring us to live by faith was an act of mercy. Having a perfect knowledge of something does not make us immune to committing sin. So imagine how much more responsible we are for our actions if we have a perfect knowledge of the truth and still break God's laws? That we are required to live by faith allows God to exercise a greater degree of mercy when we do break a law that we are trying to live by faith.

Regards,

Finrock

Interesting. What you seem to be saying/implying here is that faith is a means to protect us from being permanently damaged by our own rebellion against proof (signs of god).

I've seen many members use faith to deny facts in science and history too, and they give a strong testimony that even if anti-mormon or negative claims about the church or about Joseph Smith are true, it won't shake their testimony. That's kind of doing the same thing from the opposite direction.

[Windseeker]

I find that athiest have the greatest faith, misplaced as it is.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Interesting. What you seem to be saying/implying here is that faith is a means to protect us from being permanently damaged by our own rebellion against proof (signs of god).

I've seen many members use faith to deny facts in science and history too, and they give a strong testimony that even if anti-mormon or negative claims about the church or about Joseph Smith are true, it won't shake their testimony. That's kind of doing the same thing from the opposite direction.

Name one "fact" of science or history that you know as a fact and true that didn't require some amount of faith in the teachings of someone else.

Even if you said something life "the laws of gravity", that phrase was not invented by you. You are taking it on faith that the word 'gravity' means 'gravity' as you didn't create the English language yourself. Everything you learn in this life, as it is in the eternities, is built upon the learning of someone else. As much as people want to take credit for their own knowledge, it never is. This is probably the most frustrating thing about "faith" for people who fight against it - they want to believe that they actually know something based in their own effort, even though the knowledge was given to them. This is a prideful thing, to not acknowledge the "fact" that your learning is received rather than generated by one self in an isolated manner.

As much as you have a distaste for faith you, as well as everyone, use it more than they realize.

[cryophil]

I find that athiest have the greatest faith, misplaced as it is.

Coincidentally I have been having a conversation like this with an agnostic-atheist. I asked if it doesn't take more faith to believe the world/universe came about from nothing and through randomness--how can something so complex not be created by an intelligence?

He replied, and the God that created it would by definition be more complex than the creation. And whence that intelligence?

Me: Most Christians believe that God always was/is and had no begining or end.

Him: Do you believe God is omnipotent and perfect?

Me: I struggle with it, but that is what I was taught and I've tried to believe with all my heart.

Him: Is God's being/intelligence found in his creation and through it?

Me: That's what I was taught as well.

Him: How can a perfect being that has no beginning or end start something that is part of him and not change? Perfect is perfect. Or are there no absolutes?

How would you respond?

[Guest]

Coincidentally I have been having a conversation like this with an agnostic-atheist. I asked if it doesn't take more faith to believe the world/universe came about from nothing and through randomness--how can something so complex not be created by an intelligence?

He replied, and the God that created it would by definition be more complex than the creation. And whence that intelligence?

Me: Most Christians believe that God always was/is and had no begining or end.

Him: Do you believe God is omnipotent and perfect?

Me: I struggle with it, but that is what I was taught and I've tried to believe with all my heart.

Him: Is God's being/intelligence found in his creation and through it?

Me: That's what I was taught as well.

Him: How can a perfect being that has no beginning or end start something that is part of him and not change? Perfect is perfect. Or are there no absolutes?

How would you respond?

Well, I can't respond because the conversation was started with the wrong premise. In the LDS faith, there is such a thing as Eternal Progression.

[cryophil]

Name one "fact" of science or history that you know as a fact and true that didn't require some amount of faith in the teachings of someone else.

you have a valid point that faith is a motivator. With my original post, I was referring to the kind of faith that is placed in metaphysical, spiritual, religious beliefs. I think that scientific faith is really about trusting that the observations one can make and that have been made by others are consistent and verifiable. Religious faith says that you have to believe without evidence.

My other question then is, what happens when the evidence found by science contradicts the faith I've placed in Mormonism?

But to the first question, I realize that Mormonism tells me to have faith like a seed, plant it in my actions and see if it grows into knowledge.

So does faith supersede knowledge?

Alma chapter 32 verse 21 teaches that "—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true." Then a few verses later (verse 26) the author states that "Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge." From this it is clear that the Book of Mormon teaches that "faith" is not a perfect knowledge. Now what Alma doesn't discuss is what happens when the facts (what you can see) start to disagree with what you had faith in (what you can't see). So what happens when your knowledge supersedes your faith?

Further on in verse 34 it explains that, once your knowledge is perfect in a particular thing your faith is then dormant. In other words, once you know a thing, you no longer need faith in that thing because you now know it. So, the thing that was not seen, is now seen. Here clearly knowledge takes precedence over faith or if you like belief.

There are those that once had the faith that the Church was true, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and so on, but then they study other information that they see as true facts and contrary to the claims of the LDS church concerning these things. That knowledge disagrees with the things they had only had faith or belief in. They believe the knowledge they acquired from science and other secular sources supersede their faith.

It almost seems as though the teachings in Alma condemns the Mormon faith based belief when superseded by facts, if the facts do indeed contradict the teachings.

Hence my original quandry.

[cryophil]

Well, I can't respond because the conversation was started with the wrong premise. In the LDS faith, there is such a thing as Eternal Progression.

How does Eternal Progression square with perfection?

Joseph Smith taught, in the lectures on faith #7:

"These teachings of the Saviour most clearly show unto us the nature of salvation, and what he proposed unto the human family when he proposed to save them—that he proposed to make them like unto himself, and he was like the Father, the great prototype of all saved beings... We ask, then, where is the prototype? or, where is the saved being? We conclude as to the answer of this question that there will be no dispute among those who believe the Bible that it is Christ. All will agree that he is the prototype or standard of salvation, or in other words, that he is a saved being. And if we should continue our interrogation and ask how it is that he is saved, the answer would be that he is a just and holy being. If he were anything different from what he is, he would not be saved; for his salvation depends on his being precisely what he is and nothing else. For if it were possible for him to change in the least degree, surely Christ would fail of salvation and lose all his dominion, power, authority and glory, which constitute salvation. For salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else; and no being can possess it but himself or one like him. "

[rameumptom]

LDS see it differently than most other Christians. The discussion does not apply to what we believe.

We believe that matter is co-eternal with God. So, there is a component that is separate from God's creations. God creates by organizing matter from chaos to order. With this separateness is independence, or free will. All matter can decide to what level it will allow itself to be organized by God. When Genesis shows that called called his creations "good", it is because they obeyed him, not because they were perfect (see the Book of Abraham for more on this).

[Seminarysnoozer]

Coincidentally I have been having a conversation like this with an agnostic-atheist. I asked if it doesn't take more faith to believe the world/universe came about from nothing and through randomness--how can something so complex not be created by an intelligence?

He replied, and the God that created it would by definition be more complex than the creation. And whence that intelligence?

Me: Most Christians believe that God always was/is and had no begining or end.

Him: Do you believe God is omnipotent and perfect?

Me: I struggle with it, but that is what I was taught and I've tried to believe with all my heart.

Him: Is God's being/intelligence found in his creation and through it?

Me: That's what I was taught as well.

Him: How can a perfect being that has no beginning or end start something that is part of him and not change? Perfect is perfect. Or are there no absolutes?

How would you respond?

The imperfections of this world were created by the Fall. For this reason we need deliverance. God's creation occurred in the Garden of Eden, so what "creation" is he referring to?

For a person to learn of how there is no beginning or end requires learning, spiritually, line upon line. If one doesn't have a testimony of the value of faith then I can see how they would want to jump right to having all the answers from the beginning and want to answer such questions.

[Guest]

It almost seems as though the teachings in Alma condemns the Mormon faith based belief when superseded by facts, if the facts do indeed contradict the teachings.

Hence my original quandry.

Okay, I'll break this down simply - because I'm a simple person.

Faith is first. Then you build a testimony of it.

Now, you say, what if the facts contradict the teachings? Then you are facing a fork in the road = 1.) that you did not have a clear understanding of what you based your faith on, 2.) that you did not have a clear understanding of what you thought was fact.

Religion and Science go hand-in-hand. Scientific discovery enhances your understanding of what Christ taught. A perfect example is the discovery of the dinosaurs. When man discovered pre-historic fossils, it did not make what we learned about the Creation in 7 days as wrong. It merely enhanced our understanding of what the Creation story in Genesis actually entailed. The faith is still solid on why Adam and Eve got put on Earth in the first place.

Science or Facts answer the How. Religion provides the Why. Together they build a more complete story.

Edited May 10, 2012 by anatess

[Seminarysnoozer]

you have a valid point that faith is a motivator. With my original post, I was referring to the kind of faith that is placed in metaphysical, spiritual, religious beliefs. I think that scientific faith is really about trusting that the observations one can make and that have been made by others are consistent and verifiable. Religious faith says that you have to believe without evidence.

My other question then is, what happens when the evidence found by science contradicts the faith I've placed in Mormonism?

But to the first question, I realize that Mormonism tells me to have faith like a seed, plant it in my actions and see if it grows into knowledge.

So does faith supersede knowledge?

Alma chapter 32 verse 21 teaches that "—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true." Then a few verses later (verse 26) the author states that "Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge." From this it is clear that the Book of Mormon teaches that "faith" is not a perfect knowledge. Now what Alma doesn't discuss is what happens when the facts (what you can see) start to disagree with what you had faith in (what you can't see). So what happens when your knowledge supersedes your faith?

Further on in verse 34 it explains that, once your knowledge is perfect in a particular thing your faith is then dormant. In other words, once you know a thing, you no longer need faith in that thing because you now know it. So, the thing that was not seen, is now seen. Here clearly knowledge takes precedence over faith or if you like belief.

There are those that once had the faith that the Church was true, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and so on, but then they study other information that they see as true facts and contrary to the claims of the LDS church concerning these things. That knowledge disagrees with the things they had only had faith or belief in. They believe the knowledge they acquired from science and other secular sources supersede their faith.

It almost seems as though the teachings in Alma condemns the Mormon faith based belief when superseded by facts, if the facts do indeed contradict the teachings.

Hence my original quandry.

My point is that even in things that you are calling scientific "facts" you haven't proven them all yourself and yet you believe in them. By definition, that is faith. Not just initiated with faith but you still have faith in them and you build upon that faith.

Have you discovered the laws of electricity for yourself or have you taken the word of someone else' research on faith? Have you discovered for yourself and proved for yourself how metal is mined and refined to make wires for the computer you are using or do you have faith that it was made properly? Have you discovered for yourself how to make plastics and rubber etc.? Your life is surrounded by things that you continue to have faith in and build upon them. You don't have to recreate all human learning that occurred before you. We don't have to all start out as cavemen, so to speak. If you were left by your parents in some cave somewhere at birth and without any assistance in your growth and development came to your current knowledge, then maybe you could claim that there was no faith involved in your current "fact" based knowledge. But I doubt that is the case.

It is all a matter of what you have faith in, not that faith contradicts "facts". Your dichotomy is wrong.

You said; "There are those that once had the faith that the Church was true, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and so on, but then they study other information that they see as true facts and contrary to the claims of the LDS church concerning these things." In place of "true facts" you should have put '...they put their faith in ...'. The source of the problem may be more in them seeing that information as "true facts".