Useless Body Parts

[Timpman]

Help! I have shaken faith syndrome. Why do human embryos have tails and adults have a coccyx? Is it "the remnant of a lost tail" because we evolved from monkeys?

Human vestigiality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And what about the plantaris muscle? "Often mistaken for a nerve by freshman medical students, the muscle was useful to other primates for grasping with their feet. It has disappeared altogether in 9 percent of the population."

https://notes.utk.edu/Bio/greenberg.nsf/0/0765bb50d404455385256f0000680854?OpenDocument&Click=

I am serious.

[MarginOfError]

Help! I have shaken faith syndrome. Why do human embryos have tails and adults have a coccyx? Is it "the remnant of a lost tail" because we evolved from monkeys?

Human vestigiality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And what about the plantaris muscle? "Often mistaken for a nerve by freshman medical students, the muscle was useful to other primates for grasping with their feet. It has disappeared altogether in 9 percent of the population."

https://notes.utk.edu/Bio/greenberg.nsf/0/0765bb50d404455385256f0000680854?OpenDocument&Click=

I am serious.

It could be a number of things, many of which we probably don't fully understand.

The evolution hypothesis has merit. Evolution and creationism aren't entirely at odds with each other unless you are apply very strict interpretations to the Bible. If you view the Bible as containing elements of allegory mixed with history, or if you subscribe to Deist philosophy, evolution makes a lot of sense.

It's also possible that embryos have tails simply because the tail forms as a part of least resistance during the transition.

Personally, I tend toward the evolution hypothesis, but I can be persuaded otherwise by sufficient evidence. But I don't think it needs to be a matter of faith.

[Guest]

I have parts of my body that are useless, but it's not my faith that's shakin'. (Hips, belly, Relief Society arms. . .)

[Timpman]

Evolution and creationism aren't entirely at odds with each other unless you are apply very strict interpretations to the Bible.

I guess bodies may have really evolved from monkeys and then God threw Adam and Eve in at the right time. What do you think of that? I take the account of Adam and Eve literally. It's not only in Genesis, it's also in the temple. Edited May 16, 2012 by Timpman
Changed "through" to "threw" because it bothered me!

[Wingnut]

take the account of Adam and Eve literally. It's not only in Genesis, it's also in the temple.

I don't personally believe the temple ceremonies are intended to be taken literally.

[Dravin]

Okay, when you say evolved from monkeys you do realize that the theory of evolution as applied to human origins does not suppose that humans evolved from modern day monkeys right? That is to say for instance that chimpanzees (which are apes but I'm assuming you are using monkeys loosely rather than technically) and humans have a common ancestor but it is not supposed that chimpanzees evolved into humans, there would have been a common ape ancestor where some evolved into proto-chimpanzees and some evolved into proto-humans.

You may be aware of the distinction and just be using evolved from monkeys as a short-hand of sorts but I bring it up because a surprising amount of people haven't learned that distinction.

[MarginOfError]

I guess bodies may have really evolved from monkeys and then God threw Adam and Eve in at the right time. What do you think of that? I take the account of Adam and Eve literally. It's not only in Genesis, it's also in the temple.

Technically speaking, we didn't evolve from monkeys. Monkeys and humans evolved from a common ancestor (or so the theory goes).

I don't know if the account of Adam and Eve is literal or not. The translation of "Adam" is "mankind." It's possible Moses was using the word for an abstract concept to teach the Israelites about the origin of the earth. It also would have been an effective way to mark Adam as a placeholder; one into which we could interject ourselves.

It's also possible that Adam was a single human being that Moses gave the name "Adam" to reflect our mankind's common heritage.

I imagine I'll find out sometime after I'm dead what's really true. I'm willing to accept just about any plausible explanation.

[Dravin]

Mwahaha! I must have beat you by a few seconds MoE. :)

[MarginOfError]

Mwahaha! I must have beat you by a few seconds MoE. :)

You take great pride in being less verbose than me, don't you.

[Dravin]

You take great pride in being less verbose than me, don't you.

My post was only 4 words shorter. :)

[JudoMinja]

As Dravin and Moe have stated, creation and evolution are not necessarily contradictory, neither need the account of the Garden of Eden be necessarily literal. That said, evolution is not a complete theory- it still has holes scientists are currently working to explain. And, comparing the different accounts of the creation also leaves many holes still in need of answers. We have a limited idea of how God did things, but our understanding is just that. Limited.

Vestigal limbs and organs can be explained by what we currently understand of evolution and can be seen in a great number of animals, not just ourselves. Of course, it is also possible that all "vestigal" pieces serve some kind of purpose we haven't discovered. I remember reading something recently that said the appendix actually serves a purpose in our bodies (can't remember what it is), but it was previously believed that the appendix was vestigal and "useless". That is why doctors will sometimes remove it if cutting into you for an entirely unrelated surgery, because they believe it to be "useless" and if it remains you run the risk of getting appendicitis.

There are still many things we just don't know the answers to. We may find some answers through scientific discovery, but we won't know for sure those answers are correct or complete until all things are revealed to us when this probationary period is over. God doesn't really take the time to answer such questions for us because they just aren't all that important to our salvation. Eventually, He will provide those answers about why we have "useless" body parts, but for now the answers just aren't necessary.

[Guest]

My post was only 4 words shorter. :)

You counted?

[Dravin]

You counted?

Word did the counting, I just did the copying, pasting, and highlighting.

[MarginOfError]

My post was only 4 words shorter. :)

Your post was only 4 words shorter. :)

I knew you cared.

[pam]

Word did the counting, I just did the copying, pasting, and highlighting.

I think you need to take another class or something. You have far too much time on your hands.

[Bini]

I have parts of my body that are useless, but it's not my faith that's shakin'. (Hips, belly, Relief Society arms. . .)

O, my.. What are Relief Society arms!? O_o

[Timpman]

You may be aware of the distinction and just be using evolved from monkeys as a short-hand of sorts

Yes, let's just say that's what I'm doing :)

[Guest]

O, my.. What are Relief Society arms!? O_o

That's when you're leading a hymn in church, and even when the song stops, your upper arm doesn't.

[Dravin]

O, my.. What are Relief Society arms!? O_o

Aka flabby arms. An example courtesy of Google:

[Timpman]

Hey, stop counting words and showing pics of fat. Stay on topic.

I, for one, get very concerned about saying the Adam and Even account is not literal. More on this coming.....

[annewandering]

I have always had quite dexterous toes, despite them being rather abnormally short. I guess I have monkey genes!

The tail in the embryo evolves into a tailbone or end of the spine. It is just part of the procedure to complete the body. By the same token the head is abnormally large in the embryo but it gradually assumes it smaller proportion to the body. The fingers are rather webshaped at first too but gradually form the more distinct form of fingers.

It is just a part of the process of completing the body. Just because it looks like a tail doesnt make it a tail. Just because it looks like flippers doesnt make it flippers. They just havent finished shaping yet.

By the same token in a monkey the 'tail' does end up being a tail instead of a spine. That is because that is what is was all along. :) And a dolphin will have flippers not hands because that is what they were all along.

They each have their own genetic code despite the similarities in appearance.

[Timpman]

Here’s some excerpts from https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man:

Adam, our first progenitor, “the first man,” was, like Christ, a preexistent spirit, and like Christ he took upon him an appropriate body, the body of a man, and so became a “living soul.”

It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this earth and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of men. The word of the Lord declared that Adam was “the first man of all men” (Moses 1:34), and we are therefore in duty bound to regard him as the primal parent of our race.

No, that does not specifically say the account of Adam and Eve is literal, but they sure speak as if it is. I searched for references to Adam and Eve and there is nothing that remotely infers that the account is not literal.

[Timpman]

Being able to read about Adam and Eve’s response to these sad family events helps us become better acquainted with their struggles in raising their family. Knowing that Adam and Eve were real people helps us relate better to them and to our own feelings, on occasion, of frustration and sorrow. What Modern Revelation Teaches about Adam - Ensign Jan. 1998 - ensign

We know the account of the Creation is not a myth as is supposed by many. We know Adam and Eve are real, historical people. ?In the Beginning?: A Latter-day Perspective - Ensign Jan. 1998 - ensign

The following insights are some that make a careful study of the Old Testament not only meaningful but critical:...

The Fall of Adam and Eve was a real and necessary step in the progression of all mankind. Old Testament Teacher Resource Manual An Introduction to the Old Testament

Here's the definitive reference:

Fall of Adam. The process by which mankind became mortal on this earth. The event is recorded in Gen. 2, 3, 4; and Moses 3, 4. The fall of Adam is one of the most important occurrences in the history of man....

Latter-day revelation supports the biblical account of the fall, showing that it was a historical event that literally occurred in the history of man. Fall of Adam

[JudoMinja]

Timpman, whether or not the account was literal just doesn't matter. Whether or not evolution explains our origins just doesn't matter. How the two join together, if they do, just doesn't matter. The thing is, we can all come up with just about any explanations we want to make sense of the account of the creation and/or to make sense of evolution. We just don't know the answers.

We can reason, we can guess, we can speculate- but whatever answers we come up with will just be the closest we can get to making sense of something we don't have the answers to. I imagine, that whenever all is finally explained to us, it will be something none of us ever thought of that will be infinitely simple and cause us to have one of those "Well, duh!" reactions.

We don't have the whole picture. What we have is facts and theories that identify some of the pieces, but like an incomplete puzzle we are still missing some information and do not have enough to know what it will be when completed. I believe we can trust most of the information provided through science and that we can ultimately trust all of the information in scriptures (so far as our ability to understand and interpret it goes). So, as we strive to put the puzzle together for ourselves we can come close to the whole, but our attempts will still result in guesses and speculation that fall short.

Basic facts/theories/thoughts about the creation and the story of the Garden of Eden:

Adam was/is the first man.

God appears to have created at least most life through the processes of evolution.

All living things were created in spirit or organized as intelligence before being physically created.

Adam and Eve remained in a state of innosense and lack of progression until they partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge (literally or symbolically, we don't know).

We are made in the image of God, but our bodies also carry imperfections as part of our mortality that can be the result of genetic mutations.

All animals look the same in an embryonic state and their differences in species appear during development due to variations of their genetic code that can be as minute as 0.1%.

Put all these thoughts/facts/theories together and what do we get? Possible answers, possible explanations, and a lot of questions. Not having the answers is just part of life. It seems the more we study, the more we learn, the more questions we find ourselves with. We are simply discovering more things we didn't even realize we did not know. But if you have faith in God you can be comfortable with the fact that you don't have the answers, because HE does.

EDITED TO ADD: And I don't think anyone here is trying to say that Adam and Eve didn't exist- just that the exact telling of their experience in the Garden of Eden may not be entirely factual. It is full of symbolism and told in much the same way that the creation stories of many ancient peoples were told. I think we are all fairly certain that God did not literally create the world in seven days, yet that is what you would need to believe if you thought the account in Genesis to be completely literal. Did Adam exist? Yes. Was he the first man? Yes. Did he fall from a paradisical state to one of mortality and put in motion God's plan for our probation? Yes. Did it happen exactly the way it says in the Bible? Probably not.

Edited May 16, 2012 by JudoMinja

[MarginOfError]

Did Adam exist? Yes. Was he the first man? Yes. Did he fall from a paradisical state to one of mortality and put in motion God's plan for our probation? Yes. Did it happen exactly the way it says in the Bible? Probably not.

Was his name even really Adam?