Faith And Works

[blazius]

If this is what is happening, then it is because you are not serious.

You don’t know this. You don’t know the conversations I’ve had with missionaries so why are you so quick to judge??

What I’m trying to get at is that missionaries are inexperienced and young, and that just because they carry the title “Missionary” or “Elder,” doesn’t make them intelligent in religious matters. More often than not when a missionary cannot answer a question his answer will be, “because the Heavenly Father has shown it to me.”

And I’m sorry; this kind of answer is not sufficient for someone seeking competent and able answers.

This thread is about faith and works, and to me, part of the “work” concept is trying to achieve the correct conclusions to religious matters from experienced, knowledgeable, and veteran people. Mormon missionaries do not fit this bill, plain and simple.

blazius

[pushka]

Hasn't it been the case in the past tho, that the Missionaries are only supposed to teach the basics and that once the questioner starts to ask about deeper issues, other people such as older Missionaries (or the Mission President) are consulted as to who should be answering those questions?

Please do not 'write' people off because they wish to delve further into the doctrines than the Missionaries have been prepared for.

[blazius]

Hasn't it been the case in the past tho, that the Missionaries are only supposed to teach the basics and that once the questioner starts to ask about deeper issues, other people such as older Missionaries (or the Mission President) are consulted as to who should be answering those questions?

Please do not 'write' people off because they wish to delve further into the doctrines than the Missionaries have been prepared for.

thank you very, very much, Pushka. I appreciate your level-headed answer and your understanding. I wish more Mormons were considerate and thoughtful like this.

blazius

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

If this is what is happening, then it is because you are not serious.

You don’t know this. You don’t know the conversations I’ve had with missionaries so why are you so quick to judge??

What I’m trying to get at is that missionaries are inexperienced and young, and that just because they carry the title “Missionary” or “Elder,” doesn’t make them intelligent in religious matters. More often than not when a missionary cannot answer a question his answer will be, “because the Heavenly Father has shown it to me.”

And I’m sorry; this kind of answer is not sufficient for someone seeking competent and able answers.

This thread is about faith and works, and to me, part of the “work” concept is trying to achieve the correct conclusions to religious matters from experienced, knowledgeable, and veteran people. Mormon missionaries do not fit this bill, plain and simple.

blazius

One thing that many do not understand is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not so much about doctrine as it is about understanding the "Way" of "everlasting life". The "Way" is not complex but is simple. Those that want to debate doctrine come to places like this and say and respond with all kinds of things. But those that wish to have peace and seek the light of Christ can find "rest".

Because the principles of "eternal happiness" are simple and easy to understand the L-rd has given callings among his youth. This, in essence kills two birds with one stone. Not only can the world learn of great things from un-cluttered hearts but young men and women have great experience in serving G-d.

The truth is Blazius - that joy is not so much in being able to vocalize answers as to live in accordance with divine principles. As the issues of faith and works are discusses many forget the principle that G-d intends that man be invested in salvation. This investing comes from Faith - more than faith in the idea of G-d but faith in the principles that G-d teaches and the covenants he gives. For example, does anyone doubt that Baptism is a principle and covenant taught by G-d? Therefore, if G-d teaches good principles - even though such things be taught by youth un-soiled in the ways of the world - should not those that have faith respond to teachings from G-d.

Why halt between opinions? If the L-rd is G-d than let us serve him in joy and do has he has directed and given example and let those that seek vain knowledge continue debating things that will never bring joy or salvation.

The Traveler

[pushka]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hasn't it been the case in the past tho, that the Missionaries are only supposed to teach the basics and that once the questioner starts to ask about deeper issues, other people such as older Missionaries (or the Mission President) are consulted as to who should be answering those questions?

Please do not 'write' people off because they wish to delve further into the doctrines than the Missionaries have been prepared for.

thank you very, very much, Pushka. I appreciate your level-headed answer and your understanding. I wish more Mormons were considerate and thoughtful like this.

blazius

You're welcome Blazius. My experience of attending the LDS church was that I was willing to take it on board without searching beyond that which was presented to me quite simply. I was only 14 as well and was looking for a church which included me more in its activities and what not, rather than the way I saw the Roman Catholic church at that time...just a 'Sunday' Church, attending Mass and not really understanding the Homilies and such at the time.

After 5 years of attending the LDS church I did begin to question just one or two little things, and was told that the members were not allowed to discuss those things...I understand that now, it was regarding Temple Ordinances and Marriage. However, the fact that some things could not be discussed openly, plus other parts of the faith which I was beginning to have doubts about opened my mind to think Why? Why be secretive, why be (in my opinion) discriminative...I ultimately left the church for other reasons. I know that I could quite easily have continued living the LDS faith happily without opening my eyes and ears any further.

Years later I decided to do the searching that my mind had started to want to do back in 1982, I now had the internet to help me with my search. I first went to LDS sites and then to non LDS sites, to compare and contrast the information I was given. I finally made my mind up not to return to the faith...I had never been baptised.

I feel that I would be able to approach my R.C. priest and ask him doctrinal questions, and hopefully not get a brick wall response...except that even in the R.C. faith there are the 'mysteries', so I suppose none of us ever gets all of the answers...I too just wish that the LDS members wouldn't automatically assume somebody is trolling because they want the answer to deep questions...it is possible to have those answers and be happy, I'm sure!

[BrotherHinds]

After 5 years of attending the LDS church I did begin to question just one or two little things, and was told that the members were not allowed to discuss those things...I understand that now, it was regarding Temple Ordinances and Marriage. However, the fact that some things could not be discussed openly, plus other parts of the faith which I was beginning to have doubts about opened my mind to think Why? Why be secretive, why be (in my opinion) discriminative...I ultimately left the church for other reasons. I know that I could quite easily have continued living the LDS faith happily without opening my eyes and ears any further.

Years later I decided to do the searching that my mind had started to want to do back in 1982, I now had the internet to help me with my search. I first went to LDS sites and then to non LDS sites, to compare and contrast the information I was given. I finally made my mind up not to return to the faith...I had never been baptised.

I feel that I would be able to approach my R.C. priest and ask him doctrinal questions, and hopefully not get a brick wall response...except that even in the R.C. faith there are the 'mysteries', so I suppose none of us ever gets all of the answers...I too just wish that the LDS members wouldn't automatically assume somebody is trolling because they want the answer to deep questions...it is possible to have those answers and be happy, I'm sure!

The thing is pushka,

The doctrines of the Gospel Christ have always been taught line upon line, precept upon precept. The ordinances of the Gospel of Christ are administered line upon line, precept upon precept. You learn the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel, gain a testimony of those principles and those foundational doctrines, go through those ordinances that apply, and then continue on beyond that. You can not fully understand nor appreciate the more complex doctrines until you have gained a testimony of the simpler doctrines and gone through the ordinances relating to them. I am sure you have heard this all before and don't buy it, or rather don't understand why it has to be that way. But it is the way the Gospel has been taught since day one, "Line upon line, precept upon precept. Here a little, there a little."

Brother Hinds

[pushka]

Thanks for your reply Brother Hinds. I have heard that before, and I do appreciate the way it is taught, however some people just have more enquiring minds than others and they feel they must hear about, and learn about the deeper issues before taking that final step of Baptism into another faith and abandoning the one they are leaving behind.

I'm sure that the people who were baptised quickly, following their Missionary Lessons, who later found that they disagreed with the deeper doctrines, once revealed to them or discovered by them in their own time, were deeply upset at how they believed they were misled into joining a religion that they did not know enough about, and wouldn't feel too happy about having to start the search for their 'most correct' religion once again going thru the steps of being taught just the basics and then being baptised and only then having the rest of the religion revealed to them.

For anyone who thinks I feel there is only 1 true religion, please note that I feel that Christianity as a whole is the religion for followers of Jesus Christ, regardless of the name of your religion and whatever other doctrines your religion chooses...If I was to begin following Christ in a major way again, I would only visit churches of various denominations to see how they fellowshipped/socialised with each other...how they viewed non christians etc. to see if they resembled anything like the way that Jesus taught they should be in their behaviour towards each other and everyone else...I would follow the Bible in order to follow what I believed Jesus taught. As it is, I follow no religion, do not read the bible or other scripture from any religious organisation, but I do my best to respect myself and other people/beings on this planet, and to not intentionally harm anyone.

[BenRaines]

I gave a talk yesterday on following Heavenly Father's teachings and his Son, Jesus Christ.

Only two things we are asked to do. Love God and to love one another as we would love ourselves.

If we love God and I mean truly love God then we will do all asked. If we love others as ourselves then we would do no harm to anyone as no person in their right mind would do harm to themselves, would not cheat themselves, etc.

There will be many who will be less harshly judged for what they have not done than those who profess to be Christlike and were not.

I try my best to do unto others as I would have done to me and live a Christlike life. Oh I guess those are works :)

Ben Raines

[prisonchaplain]

I try my best to do unto others as I would have done to me and live a Christlike life. Oh I guess those are works :)

Ben Raines

All true Christians should be strong promoters of good works. I've been accused of having an amazing ability to observe the obvious.

[BrotherHinds]

Thanks for your reply Brother Hinds. I have heard that before, and I do appreciate the way it is taught, however some people just have more enquiring minds than others and they feel they must hear about, and learn about the deeper issues before taking that final step of Baptism into another faith and abandoning the one they are leaving behind.

I'm sure that the people who were baptised quickly, following their Missionary Lessons, who later found that they disagreed with the deeper doctrines, once revealed to them or discovered by them in their own time, were deeply upset at how they believed they were misled into joining a religion that they did not know enough about, and wouldn't feel too happy about having to start the search for their 'most correct' religion once again going thru the steps of being taught just the basics and then being baptised and only then having the rest of the religion revealed to them.

For anyone who thinks I feel there is only 1 true religion, please note that I feel that Christianity as a whole is the religion for followers of Jesus Christ, regardless of the name of your religion and whatever other doctrines your religion chooses...If I was to begin following Christ in a major way again, I would only visit churches of various denominations to see how they fellowshipped/socialised with each other...how they viewed non christians etc. to see if they resembled anything like the way that Jesus taught they should be in their behaviour towards each other and everyone else...I would follow the Bible in order to follow what I believed Jesus taught. As it is, I follow no religion, do not read the bible or other scripture from any religious organisation, but I do my best to respect myself and other people/beings on this planet, and to not intentionally harm anyone.

One of the main reasons that those people disagreed with the deeper doctrines is because the did not fully understand, follow, nor appreciate the principles and ordinances of the gospel that come prior to the more complex and deeper doctrines. So many people are prideful and want to have everything and know everything right now. You can't have it all at once or you will not fully appreciate the greater ordinances and principles. The same as all the prophets have been taught and administered the doctrines of the Gospel so must we. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

You wanted Soooo bad to know the deeper things of the Gospel before being baptised and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost in order to more fully understand and appreciate them. You did not then go through the new member discussions, hold callings, attend temple prep class, ect. that come before the temple ordinances in which you learn much of the deeper doctrines in an environment where they can be more fully understood, and if one truly enters that environment being truly clean, then you will understand by way of the Spirit, and you will more fully appreciate those things taught therein.

The prophets were taught this way, even Abraham and Moses. We must be willing to humble ourselves, and "become like even as little children, submissive, meek, humple, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things..."

Brother Hinds

[prisonchaplain]

One of the main reasons that those people disagreed with the deeper doctrines is because the did not fully understand, follow, nor appreciate the principles and ordinances of the gospel that come prior to the more complex and deeper doctrines. So many people are prideful and want to have everything and know everything right now. You can't have it all at once or you will not fully appreciate the greater ordinances and principles. The same as all the prophets have been taught and administered the doctrines of the Gospel so must we. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

What I'm about to say may surprise some. I've been blessed to sit under the most advanced, sophisticated, academic teachings my church offers. I could go one step further (Regent University in Virginia Beach, VA offers a Ph.D. in Renewal Theology), but won't being doing so any time soon. The time I spent in study was mostly enjoyable, challenging, and meaningful (Greek taught me humility, for example).

Having said all that, the Christian faith is rather simple to apprehend. For example, the NIV Bible is written at a 7th grade reading level. The Good News Bible at a 5th grade reading level. Even the KJV is 11th grade. Great scholarship is not necessary to understanding Christian belief.

What is complicated is growing in the practice of the faith. "Love your enemy," takes no great genius to comprehend. However, many great scholars have failed to embrace this 'simple' truth.

So...I'm a bit cautious about an approach to religious study that says some truths have to be eased into. When Scriptures speak of "meat" vs. "milk," the reference is to the difficulty of obeying, not the complexity of the teaching, imho. Additionally, those who've been in the faith for a sufficient time ought to withstand correction with less sensitivity than the 'babes in Christ.'

[blazius]

Okay, back to the faith and works issue.

Can someone please tell me, from a Mormon perspective, how would I know if I have worked enough to get to heaven?

Is there a level of work to attain to? Is there prescribed work?

In other words, if I become a Mormon, when would I find out that God was pleased enough with my works to let me go to heaven?

thanks,

blazius

[Maureen]

Can someone please tell me, from a Mormon perspective, how would I know if I have worked enough to get to heaven?

I'm cheating because this is not a Mormon perspective.

If you stand on the scale and it says you lost that 20 pounds of gruesome blubbler you've been trying to loose, than you know you've worked hard enough.

Is there a level of work to attain to? Is there prescribed work?

Level? Sure, ground floor! Prescribed? Yes, for you blazius, "go milk the cows"!

In other words, if I become a Mormon, when would I find out that God was pleased enough with my works to let me go to heaven?

I'm sure he'd let you know after you kick the bucket, just like everyone else (and I don't mean that milk bucket).

M.

[Traveler]

Okay, back to the faith and works issue.

Can someone please tell me, from a Mormon perspective, how would I know if I have worked enough to get to heaven?

Is there a level of work to attain to? Is there prescribed work?

In other words, if I become a Mormon, when would I find out that God was pleased enough with my works to let me go to heaven?

thanks,

blazius

When you forget yourself and enjoy serving and helping others.

The Traveler

[blazius]

nice try, Maureen, but not what I was looking for. I'm looking for Mormon perspectives for my questions.

blazius

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

One of the main reasons that those people disagreed with the deeper doctrines is because the did not fully understand, follow, nor appreciate the principles and ordinances of the gospel that come prior to the more complex and deeper doctrines. So many people are prideful and want to have everything and know everything right now. You can't have it all at once or you will not fully appreciate the greater ordinances and principles. The same as all the prophets have been taught and administered the doctrines of the Gospel so must we. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

What I'm about to say may surprise some. I've been blessed to sit under the most advanced, sophisticated, academic teachings my church offers. I could go one step further (Regent University in Virginia Beach, VA offers a Ph.D. in Renewal Theology), but won't being doing so any time soon. The time I spent in study was mostly enjoyable, challenging, and meaningful (Greek taught me humility, for example).

Having said all that, the Christian faith is rather simple to apprehend. For example, the NIV Bible is written at a 7th grade reading level. The Good News Bible at a 5th grade reading level. Even the KJV is 11th grade. Great scholarship is not necessary to understanding Christian belief.

What is complicated is growing in the practice of the faith. "Love your enemy," takes no great genius to comprehend. However, many great scholars have failed to embrace this 'simple' truth.

So...I'm a bit cautious about an approach to religious study that says some truths have to be eased into. When Scriptures speak of "meat" vs. "milk," the reference is to the difficulty of obeying, not the complexity of the teaching, imho. Additionally, those who've been in the faith for a sufficient time ought to withstand correction with less sensitivity than the 'babes in Christ.'

Excelent post - It has never been about passing a doctrine test - it has always been about love, compassion and kindness - first in regards to G-d and then to all man kind. I have known the so called "slow minded" to catch on and briliant scholars miss the mark.

The Traveler

[Guest MrsS]

<div class='quotemain'>

Can someone please tell me, from a Mormon perspective, how would I know if I have worked enough to get to heaven?

I'm cheating because this is not a Mormon perspective.

If you stand on the scale and it says you lost that 20 pounds of gruesome blubbler you've been trying to loose, than you know you've worked hard enough.

Is there a level of work to attain to? Is there prescribed work?

Level? Sure, ground floor! Prescribed? Yes, for you blazius, "go milk the cows"!

In other words, if I become a Mormon, when would I find out that God was pleased enough with my works to let me go to heaven?

I'm sure he'd let you know after you kick the bucket, just like everyone else (and I don't mean that milk bucket).

M.

(thank you Maureen)

[blazius]

Can someone who is serious about his or her faith and serious about answering an analytical mind address my post?

I had asked:

Can someone please tell me, from a Mormon perspective, how would I know if I have worked enough to get to heaven?

Is there a level of work to attain to? Is there prescribed work?

In other words, if I become a Mormon, when would I find out that God was pleased enough with my works to let me go to heaven?

I do not desire sanctimonious sarcasm but would appreciate a Mormon’s honest perspective on my questions above.

Thank you,

blazius

[EricM]

Can someone who is serious about his or her faith and serious about answering an analytical mind address my post?

I had asked:

Can someone please tell me, from a Mormon perspective, how would I know if I have worked enough to get to heaven?

Is there a level of work to attain to? Is there prescribed work?

In other words, if I become a Mormon, when would I find out that God was pleased enough with my works to let me go to heaven?

I do not desire sanctimonious sarcasm but would appreciate a Mormon’s honest perspective on my questions above.

Thank you,

blazius

It's not really about knowing when you've worked enough, because in all honesty, we cannot work enough. We are saved by Christ's grace after all we can do. So do all you can do until the end of your days. We can never pay God back for all he's done for us, so working all of our days (this life is a time for us to work, after all) is the least we can do. As for heaven, it depends on what you mean. Are you referring to Spiritual Paradise or the Celestial Kingdom?

[blazius]

It's not really about knowing when you've worked enough, because in all honesty, we cannot work enough. We are saved by Christ's grace after all we can do. So do all you can do until the end of your days. We can never pay God back for all he's done for us, so working all of our days (this life is a time for us to work, after all) is the least we can do.

Thank you, Eric, for the serious and mature answer.

I understand what you're saying and have considered it deeply. However, the first thought that comes to mind about the "work" concept is that if a person continually lives under the burden of work, don’t you think this places fear and distrust on the person doing the work, that he has never done enough?

It seems to me that the “work” concept is not a liberating matter but rather an encumbersome way in which to keep people thinking they’ll never be good enough to enter God’s presence, thus, continually indebt to a church.

Do you have any thoughts on this?

As for heaven, it depends on what you mean. Are you referring to Spiritual Paradise or the Celestial Kingdom?

Yes, I understand about the three levels of heaven. But I've always been referring to God's presence.

Thanks,

blazius

[Dr T]

Hi EricM,

You said,

It's not really about knowing when you've worked enough, because in all honesty, we cannot work enough. We are saved by Christ's grace after all we can do. So do all you can do until the end of your days.

I'm trying to see if what you are saying is logical. Sorry if this doesn't make sense. I should probe. wait until hopefully next week but here is what I'm thinking. You said "in all honest, we cannot work enough." You then said "we saved by Christ's grace after all we can do." I'm familiar with that quote but have never really thought about it. Here is my problem, when you say "we cant" then the stipulation of salvation is on "after we do all we can do" the rub lies in the ultimate irreconcilable propositions you just laid out. What would after all we can do mean? Could you not have lied one time less? Could you not have been less prideful on one occasion? Could you not have been more charitable? We can always improve, in my opinion, and therefore my dilemma of "after doing all we can do." We can always do more. Do you agree with that? If we can always do more, and ultimately we can't work enough, then do these two concepts really make logical sense? Maybe they will when I feel better but they don't to me right now. Sorry if I didn't explain myself correctly.

Dr. T

[Traveler]

Hi EricM,

You said,

It's not really about knowing when you've worked enough, because in all honesty, we cannot work enough. We are saved by Christ's grace after all we can do. So do all you can do until the end of your days.

I'm trying to see if what you are saying is logical. Sorry if this doesn't make sense. I should probe. wait until hopefully next week but here is what I'm thinking. You said "in all honest, we cannot work enough." You then said "we saved by Christ's grace after all we can do." I'm familiar with that quote but have never really thought about it. Here is my problem, when you say "we cant" then the stipulation of salvation is on "after we do all we can do" the rub lies in the ultimate irreconcilable propositions you just laid out. What would after all we can do mean? Could you not have lied one time less? Could you not have been less prideful on one occasion? Could you not have been more charitable? We can always improve, in my opinion, and therefore my dilemma of "after doing all we can do." We can always do more. Do you agree with that? If we can always do more, and ultimately we can't work enough, then do these two concepts really make logical sense? Maybe they will when I feel better but they don't to me right now. Sorry if I didn't explain myself correctly.

Dr. T

The concept in what to do is the same as loving G-d with all your heart, might, mind and strength. Someone may say "what is all your heart, might, mond and strength"? If someone is thinking in terms of what is the least they can to do qualify they have missed the point. It is not about what is the minimum necessary - it is about being committed and it is about doing what G-d ask with joy. It is about never giving up and keeping G-d in our hearts.

Those that are in to no more than what they have to in any relationship have already failed the relationship. How would you like to be married to someone that was always interested only in what was necessary to keep the marriage going? And then made a big deal about doing and talking only about the very minimum that was necessary. If you are like me you would not have must trust in such a relationship or marriage.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Good thoughts Traveler,

I understand what you are saying here. The conflict I was having in my jumbled mind is the opposite of minimum. I was looking at the maximum "after ALL we can do."

Dr. T

[blazius]

The concept in what to do is the same as loving G-d...it is about doing what G-d ask with joy....keeping G-d in our hearts.

Traveler, may I ask why you omit the middle letter in the word, "God?"

thanks,

blazius

[EricM]

Good thoughts Traveler,

I understand what you are saying here. The conflict I was having in my jumbled mind is the opposite of minimum. I was looking at the maximum "after ALL we can do."

Dr. T

Well, I worded it that way because of a certain scripture...(not sure which one; I'm terrible at remembering things like that). But I guess a different wording would be to try, try, try. We are all going to mess up, this is a fact. But if we pick ourselves up and continue on with an eye single to the glory of God, Christ's atoning sacrifice will cover us. We cannot earn our salvation. It is a gift from Christ, so long as we have faith (and not the dead kind, if you know what I mean).