Mormons walking in Gay pride parade in SLC

[Vort]

i went to my first pride parade last year and the functions that followed and as i've said in the past i was almost let down by the total lack of shock value.

A telling comment. For all the talk of community and acceptance, there is a palpable disappointment by lack of shock value, where the Speedo-wearing homosexuals simply were not provocative enough.

[Vort]

I chose not to read your post after I read the first two lines. Next time you wish to engage me in a forum discussion do it with manners. Telling me I lie and a bunch of other nonsensical things is not showing your true self Vort. It is my sincere prayer, that you have a better day tomorrow.

How cowardly. You cannot answer the questions put to you, so instead of admitting that you can't justify your arguments, you manufacture some outrage at irrelevant points and run away.

Your behavior merely shows your true colors.

Will someone else following this thread please copy and repost my questions so that MasterOrator no longer has an excuse to avoid answering them?

[Soulsearcher]

A telling comment. For all the talk of community and acceptance, there is a palpable disappointment by lack of shock value, where the Speedo-wearing homosexuals simply were not provocative enough.

LOL i more meant the horror stories i've always read from conservatives about what goes on at the parades. I was hoping they were exaggerating and they were, it was very tame, and you'll notice i said almost let down. People who never actually go to these things tell such tales that those of us who have never been get all sorts of odd impressions, and when we get there we say " really? is this what all the fuss is about? where are all the things they swear are in every pride parade" As for speedos, if that's provocative i really hope you never watch the olympic swimming events or you might hemorrhage something.

[Vort]

I was hoping they were exaggerating and they were, it was very tame, and you'll notice i said almost let down.

I don't understand. If the parade met your hopes and not the horrible conservatives' lies, why did you feel almost let down?

[annewandering]

I can kind of add strength to pams comments a bit. I look forward to pride because it's one of the few days i really don't have much fear. it's a day i can can go out and not really have to worry because i know the people around me aren't going to try to make me feel like crap or worse. i went to my first pride parade last year and the functions that followed and as i've said in the past i was almost let down by the total lack of shock value. Most of the floats were from different groups that were made up of gay and lesbian members (swimming clubs, dancers ect) a few political floats, a few religious floats and radio stations. While some of the outfits were possibly less than modest( speedo's for the swim club and a variety of outfits for the dancers, the drag queens were probably the best and most modestly dressed lol) I've seen worse from some of the NFL cheerleaders. After living so many years in fear and self loathing it was so refreshing to be able to just go and relax and not try to keep up a constant shield. I could just be me and not what others expected me to be. While i do see what people have against the parades i do think they miss why they are important. Yes they show pride in the full experience of being homosexual, but they also let us have a bit of time where we don't have to worry so much, a place of safety and fellowship. I've actually heard much the same feeling expressed by religious people about when they are at church. I'm not saying they are equal but they offer a similar feeling and some similar experiences. I get to go to my pride parade on Saturday and i'm really excited, not because of what will be in the parade( i'm not a parade fan) but just because of the environment and the people both straight and gay who are there.

I would think that you would prefer to have the parade goers be supporters of a gay life then. To me it would make sense. In truth though, while that support between members of that community may have been the original idea it has become much more a pubic symbol of 'gay is good. gay is great'.

I am sorry you do not feel safe. Now there is an issue I would march with you for. I do not agree with your life pattern in regards to sex but I certainly condemn any harm coming to you for it.

[Soulsearcher]

I don't understand. If the parade met your hopes and not the horrible conservatives' lies, why did you feel almost let down?

People get you all riled up for something and then it doesn't happen. You expect something and it's completely different. Kinda like watching a scary movie with a great build up but nothing really shocking at the end. I loved the parade and how tasteful it was but being i'd been promised something by all the religious and conservative to constantly proclaim they know so much about them i was surprised that not one thing they swore would happen happened.

[LittleWyvern]

Why should we put on sheeps clothing and pretend like we think they are fine doing what they do? Love means being honest. Love means we rebuke, kindly, when we have stewardship and see the need. No where does love mean cheering a sinning person on, giving them the clear idea that we approve.

This subject is perhaps this thread's last chance at civil conversation (since "omg bestiality polygamy sex satan apostasy" kinda ruined the rest). What does it mean to love someone who is doing what we feel is a sin? Perhaps one of the goals of true Christlike love is helping somebody feel that they are a good person, despite the weaknesses and struggles they have. If we were all judged by what we did, we'd all feel pretty stupid about ourselves. Love helps us feel like there's still a point to our struggle to be a good person despite doing stupid stuff constantly.

Where does this lead us in this specific case? If our end goal is to help people in sin to stop sinning, they have to trust us. Part of that is showing Christlike love, and another part is being willing to love the sinner even if they still are sinning. But does this mean, for instance, that being a designated driver for a few of your friends after a party means you support drinking alcohol? Maybe. I guess that depends on your philosophy. But in the end, nobody is telling anybody they should do anything here. Does showing love to someone who is gay mean that we should support efforts to help these people feel like a normal person? Does that mean that we suddenly support the sin and not the sinner anymore? We'll all have different answers to that, but I think that demonstrates that love dictates different actions toward different people, and as pam's case demonstrated, sometimes quick assumptions of "apostate" and "undermining the church" aren't always accurate. The phrase “Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you" becomes more relevant here than it usually is.

(Man I am beginning to feel like a Vort clone.)

P.S: Vort, don't bother replying to this post if all you're going to do is turn this into an argument and post angry things. It won't be worth it, I won't even read it.

[annewandering]

So the guy in the nun habit wasnt there faking sex acts on a float? I would say you were lucky then. ^^ So were your kids if you took them.

[Vort]

The phrase “Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you" becomes more relevant here than it usually is.

P.S: Vort, don't bother replying to this post if all you're going to do is turn this into an argument and post angry things. It won't be worth it, I won't even read it.

How utterly ironic.

[Soulsearcher]

I would think that you would prefer to have the parade goers be supporters of a gay life then. To me it would make sense. In truth though, while that support between members of that community may have been the original idea it has become much more a pubic symbol of 'gay is good. gay is great'.

I am sorry you do not feel safe. Now there is an issue I would march with you for. I do not agree with your life pattern in regards to sex but I certainly condemn any harm coming to you for it.

I appreciate your thoughts, and i do understand the conflicts that could arise from the LDS who joined in the parade though really when i read the article i never really saw it beyond LDS supporting the church stance and letting people know that the LDS are not who they are perceived as. Also the question i tend to have is define harm? I've never been harmed physically for being gay though i have been threatened for being perceived as gay when i was younger, most of my harm came from less physical means.

One thing, and i really don't want this taken the wrong way, but being part of both sides i can comment. I'm not sure the LDS membership as a whole understand the view many gays have about the church. While many might not like the church's current message that's not the message most of them know the LDS church for, and with prop 8, even though a lot of the worst stuff wasn't directly related to the church, the amount of money and time put in by the church has colored a great many perceptions. While many members might say "who cares what the gays think of us" i think it should more be "why don't the gays know what we really are saying" I've seen many of the same misunderstandings and assumptions by some mebers on this site about gays. The members marching in the utah pride parade seemed to be more focused on getting the truth of the church's stance out vs what many gays have learned or been taught about the LDS in the past and by the wrong people. That's the message i took from it and i do think that was their intent, though i also agree both sides could use this in ways other than intended.

[annewandering]

This subject is perhaps this thread's last chance at civil conversation (since "omg bestiality polygamy sex satan apostasy" kinda ruined the rest). What does it mean to love someone who is doing what we feel is a sin? Perhaps one of the goals of true Christlike love is helping somebody feel that they are a good person, despite the weaknesses and struggles they have. If we were all judged by what we did, we'd all feel pretty stupid about ourselves. Love helps us feel like there's still a point to our struggle to be a good person despite doing stupid stuff constantly.

Where does this lead us in this specific case? If our end goal is to help people in sin to stop sinning, they have to trust us. Part of that is showing Christlike love, and another part is being willing to love the sinner even if they still are sinning. But does this mean, for instance, that being a designated driver for a few of your friends after a party means you support drinking alcohol? Maybe. I guess that depends on your philosophy. But in the end, nobody is telling anybody they should do anything here. Does showing love to someone who is gay mean that we should support efforts to help these people feel like a normal person? Does that mean that we suddenly support the sin and not the sinner anymore? We'll all have different answers to that, but I think that demonstrates that love dictates different actions toward different people, and as pam's case demonstrated, sometimes quick assumptions of "apostate" and "undermining the church" aren't always accurate. The phrase “Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you" becomes more relevant here than it usually is.

P.S: Vort, don't bother replying to this post if all you're going to do is turn this into an argument and post angry things. It won't be worth it, I won't even read it.

Wish there was both laugh and thanks. :) Well said LittleWyvern.

[LittleWyvern]

How utterly ironic.

What? You were on a roll there.

[Soulsearcher]

So the guy in the nun habit wasnt there faking sex acts on a float? I would say you were lucky then. ^^ So were your kids if you took them.

lol as i say there was nothing sexual about the parade in any way. there was one streaker that wasn't part of the parade but i don't count her. Otherwise it was just music, people dancing on floats(not overly provocatively, again worse on monday night football) and a lot of people waving and tossing beads and flags.

[annewandering]

Well hope they had a good picnic with it then .

If the idea was to try to help people understand our beliefs and that was put across well, then hey yes I would go. :) communication is GOOD!

arg i really hate that green smiley smirk so edited it out.

[Soulsearcher]

Well hope they had a good picnic with it then .

If the idea was to try to help people understand our beliefs and that was put across well, then hey yes I would go. :) communication is GOOD!

arg i really hate that green smiley smirk so edited it out.

If you heard half of the stuff i hear about LDS from the community i think you'd be disheartened, but for the most part it's because of a lack of out reach. Yes there are press releases but even knowing they are there i have to tend to dig to find them. Something like this made a huge impact to the people who were both in and at the parade and softened some hearts. I'd rather have to stop correcting people and start agreeing because they actually know what you guys are teaching .

[annewandering]

Welll I have read a bunch of it and it is depressing. Perhaps it has to do with both sides being overly defensive. I dont know.

[Soulsearcher]

Welll I have read a bunch of it and it is depressing. Perhaps it has to do with both sides being overly defensive. I dont know.

i thin it's half being defensive and half being more willing to expect the worst from those you don't agree with. Both sides have had the fringe spread lies and misrepresentations and when you already feel like the target sadly it's easier to believe the worst than hope for the best.

[Guest kyolive123]

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[Backroads]

Saying "I support my loved ones" is quite simplistic. I doubt anyone here would support their loved ones in certain things. If you feel you should support your loved ones by attending a gay pride parade, fine, but don't slap it under the generic umbrella of "I'm supporting the people".

[Guest]

I wouldn't attend a pro-polygamy parade, for whomever asked, whether I had loved ones living polygamous lives or not.

Jesus loved sinners. He told them to go and sin no more. He didn't throw parties for them. I would break bread with my gay cousin and we have a loving relationship, but I'm not celebrating his sins any more than I expect him to celebrate mine.

[Vort]

lol as i say there was nothing sexual about the parade in any way.

Except that it was a parade dedicated SPECIFICALLY to honoring people who engage in certain perverse sex acts.

[pam]

It's a fine line for me, but I think I lean toward's Vort's opinion. I have a few family members, friends, and even a best friend who is homosexual. I love them very much and would never condemn them personally, but for me I'd rather stick to my values and let them have theirs. I believe I can support and love them without attending a parade.

As for what Vort is saying, if I am going to support and celebrate my friends and family no matter what their sexual interests might be, it would be hypocritical to attend a Gay Pride parade for my gay friends but not a Bestiality Pride parade for those animal-loving friends.

(is that what you're getting at, Vort?)

So call me hypocritical. I can take it.

[Vort]

So call me hypocritical. I can take it.

In my mind, a parent who attends a "Gay Pride Parade" as a way to show a homosexual child that s/he still loves that child is a different kettle of fish. I disagree with it, but I won't argue the point with a parent. That is sacred. I will just hope never to bear that burden.

But I also hope you realize that we can care about and support you in your efforts and still be appalled at the general idea of a Latter-day Saint attending and supporting a "Gay Pride Parade." Which it sounds like you do.

[Vort]

For MasterOrator's convenience in answering:

The interesting part is that many Latter-day Saint are at rehab centers and prisons trying to help crack smokers. That is showing tolerance much like attending a gay pride parade is showing a form of tolerance.

Wrong. Staffing a center to rehab homosexuals and try to help repentent SSA sufferers is equivalent to staffing rehab centers and prisons. Attending a parade for Gay Pride is equivalent to attending a parade for cutters or crack smokers (or dog sex people) -- it's a glorification of the activity, not an affirmation of the underlying humanity.

If a "Gay Pride Parade" is merely an affirmation of homosexuals' underlying humanity and in no way a glorification of their perversion, then explain why a Dog Sex Pride Parade (or cutters parade, or crack smokers parade) is not exactly the same thing.

There is no connection between showing love to a group of people and putting morality up for a public vote.

You claimed there was:

In the case of a gay pride parade, almost half of the United States would support such a parade. That is why it is important we show love towards them.

Note your logic: The REASON we should show love toward homosexual activity is BECAUSE half the country supports it.

No.

But why not? As you clearly claimed above, the REASON to support homosexuality is because it's now so popular. Why would the Saints of a couple of generations past not have been justified in condemning it, seeing as how it wasn't popular at that time?

Love the sinner not the sin.

Please answer the question instead of dodging it: If in fifty years people think sex with animals is wonderful, should the Saints at that time support a Bestiality Pride Parade?

There is no need to show tolerance for people who are doing something against the law.

Until very recently, homosex was against the law. So are you now saying that as long as homosexual conduct is illegal, we have no moral imperative to show tolerance for homosexuals? It's only when the homosexual conduct is made legal that we are obliged to show tolerance for it?

Vort, do you agree that we should be tolerant of gays? I am sure you do as the church teaches that.

I have never heard the Church teach "be tolerant of gays", so I don't even know what you mean. We should be tolerant of gays in the same sense that we should be tolerant of people with freckles and people with spiked hair and people with body odor and people with crack addictions and people who rape other people and people who use foul language and people who vote Democrat and people who ride motorcycles. We should be tolerant of people.

If that is the case, why should we not attend a parade? Attending a gay parade is basically an outward manifestation of what you support.

You have just answered your own question. We should never, ever, EVER support homosexuality. It is a grave and destructive sin. It is a practice that leads people away from God. It is spiritual death.

Attending a Gay Pride Parade is, as you say, showing support toward homosexuality. Such is exactly contrary to everything the gospel teaches. We should, of course, show tolerance to homosexuals on a personal basis. But showing tolerance to a smoker doesn't mean I let him smoke in my car. It also doesn't mean I fight against no-smoking laws in public places. I tolerate the smoker, because he's a human being, but I do not condone his actions and attend Smoker's Pride Parades.

And since homosex is approximately ten zillion times more destructive than smoking, I certainly don't attend Gay Pride Parades, either.

To not attend just because it is parade about taking pride in their lifestyle is not a good argument. They will hold the parade and live their lifestyle regardless.

Then why don't you want to attend the Bestiality Pride Parade? They will hold the parade and live their lifestyle regardless. And for the sake of argument, let's pretend it's legalized, just like homosex has been.

If not attending the parade would cause them to stop living that lifestyle; then it would be undermining the church.

How on earth do you possibly justify this statement?

Since it does not stop them, we should have tolerance(love) towards our neighbors.

Having tolerance (love) toward our neighbor who smokes or fornicates with prostitutes or has sex with his pooch or smokes crack or masturbates with razor blades does not mean we have any business attending and supporting parades that glorify those things.

[StallionMcBeastly]

To me, walking in a gay pride parade says "I support the gay lifestyle and their sinful activities". I love all people despite their sins, but I would never publicly support homosexual activity.

:)