Meat-free diet

[CarstenNorgaard]

Hey guys

It seems that more people have found great quotes to support the decision to eat meat sparingly in the sense of "in a sparing manner", meaning pretty much not at all.

As far as I can see, the three major arguments to make this choice are:

* We should not support the unnecessary killing of animals, which is a sin.

* Today killing animals for food is not necessary in developed areas in the world. There is access to vegetables and fruits all year.

* General abstinence from meat brings spiritual and temporal blessings.

I wrote up a reference with statements that relate to these arguments here: Mormon Vegetarianism/Flexitarianism: Statements, Scriptures and Commentary (June 2012)

And I also want to show you a presentation by Chris Foster, Professor of Philosophy and Logic at the University of Utah, who presented why he felt that Mormons should be vegetarian, at least today:

For the last 6 years I have experimented with reducing meat, vegetarian and flexitarian diets. For the most part I was a pescetarian, meaning that the only meat I ate was fish. But in the recent few months after coming home from my mission, I and my (new) wife have felt increasingly certain that there are blessings to living on a meat-free diet that we would not like to be without. It simply feels right.

So, let's have a talk about this? What do you think, personally, and why?

One thing that seems to be returning to my mind is also the idea that when man will live to the age of a tree (in the millennium and after), his food will be vegetables and fruits. That makes sense: The world is going to be restored to a terrestrial world first, then a celestial. And back when the world was terrestrial in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were probably vegetarians. At least no human is described as having been permitted to use animals as food until the time when Noah stepped off the ark.

Lorenzo Snow even said that he felt that "the time was near at hand when the Latter-day Saints should be taught to refrain from meat eating and the shedding of animal blood", perhaps along the lines of preparing a people for the millennium.

So there's a lot of really exciting ideas here, and I think it is worthwhile for every Latter-day Saint to seriously consider a vegetarian diet. It certainly does not harm your spirituality, nor health. :)

[Guest]

There are recent threads about this. I'm glad you're happy with your lifestyle. We eat meat sparingly and enjoy it.

[bytebear]

Humans are naturally omnivores. It is very difficult to live a pure vegan diet and be healthy. The Lord has said that meat is good for us, and we should not take the "no meat" advice to an extreme, just as we should not ignore fruits and vegetables.

I cannot speculate on the resurrection other than I think we won't have a physiology that requires food. After all, we can't starve to death. We will have power over matter and energy, so we won't need food at all.

[Over43]

I have actually been mulling this over. Truly, I think, if we lived the letter of the WoW then meat on ce a week, or every other week would be sufficient.

My reasoning is I don't need to kill something (animal) at this stage of the game to not be hungry. Last week I ate at In n Out in American Fork and didn't feel well the rest of the day.

We'll see, I think about this quite a bit now. I have read that Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff and others were vegetarian. I'm not sure how this played out in the "Old West" without refrigeration, transportation, etc.

[Anddenex]

When the Church no longer provides "meat" as a source of nourishment, i.e-anybody ever helped at the Church's "meat packing plant" (which by the way makes some of the best hot dogs), I am not going to worry regarding the amount of meat I eat.

If people want to make this choice themselves, great.

I am in line with Eowyn, " eat meat and enjoy it." Nothing I will consider until the church no longer provides meat as a source of nourishment, and I am no longer taking a service shift at the plant.

[Dove]

CarstenNorgaard;

I appreciate you starting this thread and especially the links you provided. I have aspired to be vegetarian/vegan several times throughout my life. At times more successfully than others. I've studied vegan-ism a little and remember that vegans do it out of the love for animals....Even honey is not allowed...

I see nothing wrong with choosing this lifestyle. I think everything in moderation, though. I believe the WoW in the Doctrine and Covenants specifies that meat should only be eaten in extreme cold or famine. What with indoor heating and the abundance of food in the U.S., I could easily say these two conditions don't exist today....And that maybe meat is not necessary.

I believe, though, that the WofW tells us not to command people to abstain from meat. So, while I may choose this as my lifestyle, I can't say it's anything more than my personal choice.

IMO, we would all do well to follow the WofW more closely. Obesity is growing into an epidemic in the U.S. Vegetables and fruits are always good to have with whole grains and a form of protein. I also believe that if one does eat meat, to take into consideration the hormones/antibiotics the animal was fed while living. I remember praying years ago for any food that was bad for me to make me sick......I am diabetic and so was imagining the typical sweets/desserts/candy, etc. It was amazing how many foods started making me ill, including meats. I started becoming much more aware of what foods contained that could be making me ill. This led me towards vegetarianism/vegan-ism. It's amazing how good I feel when I eat a "raw" meal~Nothing but raw vegetables/fruit. It feels really good.

One form of meat I am totally against is (Sorry, can't spell it correctly) for-de-graw? Geese are forced fed, using a metal pipe, 3x's a day for their liver or kidney to react a certain way. The delicacy is a liver or kidney pat`e. This is so barbaric to me. It was recently outlawed in California. Chef's and "foodies" are outraged that it's been made against the law. I'm one who's glad it has been.

Best of Wishes,

Dove

[Echo2002]

Humans have been eating meat since the dawn of time. There's no need to change it now. I agree it should be eaten sparingly. If you are opposed to how animals are raised for food, find a local farm that raises their animals more naturally.

[Dravin]

One form of meat I am totally against is (Sorry, can't spell it correctly) for-de-graw? Geese are forced fed, using a metal pipe, 3x's a day for their liver or kidney to react a certain way. The delicacy is a liver or kidney pat`e. This is so barbaric to me. It was recently outlawed in California. Chef's and "foodies" are outraged that it's been made against the law. I'm one who's glad it has been.

Best of Wishes,

Dove

Foie gras, the reaction is the goose's or duck's liver fattening up as the bird is force fed. Also, while a pâté is one of the more famous preparations it's not the only one.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Dravin

[slamjet]

Requirements for Dinner:

1) It must have "moo'd" in a previous life.

Beyond that, it depends on the edibility factor.

[dahlia]

I was vegan for 3 years. There was peer-reviewed literature to support a vegan diet for diabetes, then as I got into it, I became active in animal protection and in improving our school lunches. For me, the heavy use of rice and beans (which I love), just didn't help my diabetes. I was also eating a lot of fake vegan foods - fake burgers, etc.

I decided, with sadness, to start eating meat and go mostly Paleo. At first I was excited by eating meat again and ate quite a bit of it, now it has settled down to where I generally only have meat for dinner. I think it is better to eat natural foods, including meat, rather than all the processed vegan food I ate formerly.

I wish I liked fish; I'd never eat meat if I could tolerate fish, but all I can take is tuna in a can, not even a tuna steak. I find I can buy whatever meat my son and I want and we still save money because we don't buy many processed foods.

Personally, if I can get my diabetes under control, I'd prefer to be vegetarian, but not vegan. There is a lot about veganism that approaches a religion for some people. It is also rather elitist and I had philosophical issues with eating a diet that called for fake this or special foods shipped from all over the world when the natural substances were so much less expensive (ex vegan margarine vs a stick of butter).

Intellectually, I dislike eating meat (and I'm including poultry here) and hope that it will not be a permanent habit, or that I can get down to meat only a few times a week. I don't buy leather, but don't have the vegan issues with wool, silk, or honey. But no leather purses for me. It's bad enough the cow has to die for me to eat it; nothing has to die so I can have a cute purse.

For me, not eating meat was a way to build my compassion - if I can have compassion for animals, I can be compassionate toward people. It's a work in progress.

[Guest]

Okay, let me ask you. If a rat runs through your kitchen... do you:

... chase it down with a rat trap?

How about if a snake slithers through your garage... do you:

... take out the shovel and whack its head with it?

Compassion for animals is not necessarily not killing it for food. I'd say killing animals to eat is a more compassionate activity than wacking a snake's head with the shovel.

We have tons of pets... we have snakes even. We feed the snakes rat. It's the natural prey of the snake. We have a dog, we feed it dog kibbles with over 30% protein taken from animal meat and less than 30% carbs. Dogs are omnivores with a natural carnivorous leaning. They don't have the physiology to support heavy consumption of plants like bears do. You can study dog teeth to see what I'm saying. Feeding your dog Puppy Chow is not being compassionate to your dog.

I can go on and on. Having all these pets has given us a lot of awareness of animals and their needs. It surely changed my feelings about snakes which extended to all other living things that I used to be afraid of - like vampire bats. Now, I love walking through the zoo to observe the bats flying around. And having all these pets made us aware of God's hand in the food cycle.

When I eat meat, I didn't kill the animal unnecessarily. I killed it so I can eat it. And the circle of life goes on. No, I don't eat a lot of meat and I don't eat too much processed food. My physiology doesn't support it. Yes, I'm into Paleo too.

Edited July 2, 2012 by anatess

[Backroads]

I would like to get to a place where I could be a little more involved with my meat--as in, raise/hunt my meat (I actually don't eat much meat, it just doesn't taste all that great to me). In general, we as a society are so far removed from where our food comes from. Many of us are so ready to abstain from meat, not kill an animal, ship organic veggies from the other side of the world, but we still don't necessarily "get it", understand what goes into raising that food. Which is more environmentally friendly, the man who goes out and shoots a couple of deer that can feed he and his wife for months, or the person that is wasting land, fuel, etc for organic vegetables that have wilted by the time they arrive?

Just saying I don't think vegetarianism, veganism, or omnivorism are as simple as we might like to think they are.

[Guest]

I would like to get to a place where I could be a little more involved with my meat--as in, raise/hunt my meat (I actually don't eat much meat, it just doesn't taste all that great to me). In general, we as a society are so far removed from where our food comes from. Many of us are so ready to abstain from meat, not kill an animal, ship organic veggies from the other side of the world, but we still don't necessarily "get it", understand what goes into raising that food. Which is more environmentally friendly, the man who goes out and shoots a couple of deer that can feed he and his wife for months, or the person that is wasting land, fuel, etc for organic vegetables that have wilted by the time they arrive?

Just saying I don't think vegetarianism, veganism, or omnivorism are as simple as we might like to think they are.

Great point, Backroads.

I remember a news article a few years back where a man hunted a deer for his family because they got into dire straits and he did not want to sign up for food stamps. He got arrested and put in jail because it was off-season... I'm still not sure what to think of this.

[Backroads]

Great point, Backroads.

I remember a news article a few years back where a man hunted a deer for his family because they got into dire straits and he did not want to sign up for food stamps. He got arrested and put in jail because it was off-season... I'm still not sure what to think of this.

Neither do I.

On one hand, people have been hunting for food for thousands of years--why does today make it any different? And he was being self-sufficient!

On the other hand, I do understand the lines wildlife and land management people must walk.

[Echo2002]

The reason we have on and off seasons for hunting is so we don't deplete the supply. If we were allowed to hunt all year round the animals wouldn't be given a chance to procreate and raise their young.

[Guest]

The reason we have on and off seasons for hunting is so we don't deplete the supply. If we were allowed to hunt all year round the animals wouldn't be given a chance to procreate and raise their young.

Right. But there's hunting - where some guy wants to practice his hunting skills - and there's hunting - where some guy ran out of food...

[Echo2002]

That's what we have grocery stores for, if you run out of food, go to the grocery store. Most hunters get enough meat to last them through the next hunting season, if they are smart.

[Guest]

That's what we have grocery stores for, if you run out of food, go to the grocery store. Most hunters get enough meat to last them through the next hunting season, if they are smart.

No no... this guy that hunted off-season got into dire straits and did not want to apply for food stamps as he felt he has the skills to feed his family. He got put in jail because the judge said he should have applied for food stamps instead of break hunting laws.

[Backroads]

The reason we have on and off seasons for hunting is so we don't deplete the supply. If we were allowed to hunt all year round the animals wouldn't be given a chance to procreate and raise their young.

And yet if we allowed people a better understanding of the supply and demand of hunting, we probably wouldn't need to have hunting seasons.

Though I don't believe these days everyone could survive off hunting.

That's what we have grocery stores for, if you run out of food, go to the grocery store. Most hunters get enough meat to last them through the next hunting season, if they are smart.

If you don't have money, the grocery store doesn't do you much good.

[Backroads]

No no... this guy that hunted off-season got into dire straits and did not want to apply for food stamps as he felt he has the skills to feed his family. He got put in jail because the judge said he should have applied for food stamps instead of break hunting laws.

To argue in favor of him going hunting, the judge thought it was better to rely on the government instead of his own skills?

Realistically, I think the judge was just saying laws are laws.

[Echo2002]

That's what I was trying to say, laws are laws. A Judge wouldn't give someone a free pass for shoplifting food at a grocery store just because a family is starving.

Unless this guy had all the equipment necessary to process his meat, he would have had to pay someone to clean the deer and cut it up, which can cost several hundred dollars. I think they charge by the pound. I guess if it was a rabbit or squirrel he could do it himself.

[Dravin]

Unless this guy had all the equipment necessary to process his meat, he would have had to pay someone to clean the deer and cut it up, which can cost several hundred dollars. I think they charge by the pound. I guess if it was a rabbit or squirrel he could do it himself.

Equipment necessary to process his meat: A sharp knife, a bone-saw/chainsaw/sawzall/ax, and bags and/or freezer paper.

Seriously, that's all you need. No that doesn't let him make ground meat and sausage (though a hand cranked meat grinder can be had under $50 and borrowed for cheaper) but isn't required, nor does it let him smoke the meat (though a home smoker is easily constructed). Jerky can be done yourself as well, you don't need a dehydrator. Heck, Alton Brown has made jerky with a box fan and some furnace filters.

This is coming from someone who grew up with the family chipping in to process a moose or two after the yearly extended family moose hunt, so I'm familiar with the processes. There are things that make it easier and give you more options in final products, but they aren't strictly speaking necessary to put meat in the freezer.

Edit: Note I'm not commenting on the desirability of the actions the man took. I'm just commenting on the idea that one needs a lot of equipment to process a kill.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Dravin

[Guest]

To argue in favor of him going hunting, the judge thought it was better to rely on the government instead of his own skills?

Realistically, I think the judge was just saying laws are laws.

That's what I was trying to say, laws are laws. A Judge wouldn't give someone a free pass for shoplifting food at a grocery store just because a family is starving.

Laws are laws. Exactly. That's all the judge said. Regardless if your family is starving. It caused quite a ruckus with the libertarians. They related it to laws are laws seem to not apply to illegal immigrants.

I agree that laws are laws. But, if my family is starving, I'd rather hunt than rely on food stamps. So what I'm trying to say is that... maybe the laws need to be changed.

Unless this guy had all the equipment necessary to process his meat, he would have had to pay someone to clean the deer and cut it up, which can cost several hundred dollars. I think they charge by the pound. I guess if it was a rabbit or squirrel he could do it himself.

Uhm... all you need is a saw and a freezer. If you got dogs, they can eat what you can't eat. If you're starving and decide to hunt deer, you better know what you're doing.

Edited July 2, 2012 by anatess

[Backroads]

Mankind did spend many years storing meat without all these newfangled things...

[dahlia]

Yes, I'm into Paleo too.

It's funny on the paleo boards - you have these vegans and vegetarians who timidly announce that they had been veg*n, but now eat meat. It's like being a former alcoholic.

I guess compassion for me means that I don't want to be blind to suffering. There are humane ways to kill animals for food. There are humane ways to raise them, that we don't use much anymore due to factory farming. We don't have to be inhumane.