How do you avoid absolute power?

[sabastious]

Somehow, I am not surprised.

A lot of judgement going on. I am actually very proud of that thread because most of the people on that thread didn't even like me having the Mormons over. I was determined to paint a better picture that had been painted previously. I am sorry if it's too "risque" for soft hearts, but that thread does a lot to encourage people to not think Mormonism is a dangerous mind control cult. You don't realize the advocacy, but I won't hold it against you.

Regards,

-Sabastious

Edited July 10, 2012 by sabastious

[Leah]

A lot of judgement going on. I am actually very proud of that thread because most of the people on that thread didn't even like me having the Mormons over. I was determined to paint a better picture that had been painted previously. I am sorry if it's too "risque" for soft hearts, but that thread does a lot to encourage people to not think Mormonism is a dangerous mind control cult. You don't realize the advocacy, but I won't hold it against you.

Regards,

-Sabastious

I see no advocacy for the church in your words posted anywhere.

[beefche]

Moderator:

We do not need to discuss another forum and the postings on that forum. Stick to the discussion at hand.

[sabastious]

I see no advocacy for the church in your words posted anywhere.

That's funny because when I was writing it I was trying to advocate your beliefs. Not as a true doctrine, but as a group who seems to have a bad wrap. I'm sorry if you were offended by anything I said. I tried my best to advocate while remaining skeptical and true to what I know.

Regards,

-Sabastious

[Misshalfway]

I don't know if adding another voice to the discussion will be helpful or not. But I wanted to address the concerns you had about coming from a church that sought to control emotions, behaviors, minds, etc etc.

(forgive me. I can't remember where I read the quote.)

One of the things I appreciate the most about LDS doctrine and church culture is the concept of Agency. Other groups might use the term "free will". In general, we are talking about a similar concept.

LDS doctrine can be very demanding. It requires it's members to live higher laws concerning the what they put in their bodies (diet, substance), how they govern their sexual lives (inside and outside of relationships), what they do with their money (tithes and offerings), and even how they manage their weekly schedule (church service, meetings, assignments). The combination of doctrine, ordinances, and commitments, COULD make someone feel that they were being dictated to, controlled, or micromanaged. But this is NOT what the LDS way is about in the least.

You see, Agency fixes all that. We are invited to live a higher law.....like giving up alchohol and coffee for example. And in return, we are promised blessings such as more spiritual knowledge from Heavenly Father and a healthier body. We pay tithing, and the Lord says "prove me now herewith if I will not pour out a blessing."

Instead of being a coersive governing force, the church simply invites people to try living a disciplined, clean way of life where we practice sacrifice, which is to give up something in exchange for something better. In my experience, there is great spiritual growth in such a disciplined way of living. It has opened up lots of perspectives and capacities inside my character and mind that wouldn't have otherwise been developed.

I hope I've made my point clearly. On these forum's I'm not always sure. But I hope to emphasize the difference between being "controlled" and using the discipline of obedience/sacrifice in "learning to control oneself." For those who govern with the need to control others, there is no reward or glory other than gathering up some meager human power for a short time. In the LDS paradigm, we don't conceptualize a God, or an earthly leadership, who needs control to govern a lot of people because gaining and protecting power isn't the goal. Rather, the glory of God and the joy of his followers come from the from the development of the individual!! This is why we prize gaining knowledge, even spiritual knowledge from the Holy Spirit, above following because of some well worded sermon or from someone who "proved" it was right. If one is compelled by self and the workings of the holy spirit inside that person, then there is not controlling or being controlled. He/she offers devotion out of their own free will and choice.

[skippy740]

Here's an article that may be worthwhile for you to read. I read your post asking if a prophet has ever said that 'if you were a Lutheran you would lose your salvation' or something to that effect.

Have You Been Saved? - Ensign May 1998 - ensign

This dives into the various terms of 'salvation' and 'exaltation'. In addition, the article was a conference talk given by a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and can give you an idea of the kinds of counsel and instruction they give.

[Dravin]

For those who govern with the need to control others, there is no reward or glory other than gathering up some meager human power for a short time. In the LDS paradigm, we don't conceptualize a God, or an earthly leadership, who needs control to govern a lot of people because gaining and protecting power isn't the goal.

That makes me think of

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

[sabastious]

But I hope to emphasize the difference between being "controlled" and using the discipline of obedience/sacrifice in "learning to control oneself."

According to the Torah the Israelites were extracted from Egypt and placed into a highly controlled environment. For example the Egyptians did not have laws where children would be stoned for disobedience. Egypt was set up to help the world and God's chosen people, but Exodus 1 states that they degraded into corruption and began enslaving people. It seemed like they were just creating another "Tower of Babel." The Israelites had lived under Egyptian rule for a long time and were used to that lifestyle. In order for them to be weened off they needed to be put into a CONTROLLED environment. A true controlled environment is where punishment is handed out for the breaking of laws. That's the only way to change something that is bad and turn it into good.

Israel was disciplined and sent into the wilderness for 40 years after worshiping a false god. This was a means of control, so you could say that the Mosaic Priesthood was established to control God's people for their own good. The LDS church has an excommunication policy and therefore enact punishment upon their members. This likely is also considered in the best interests of the members. However as Spiderman's uncle says, "with great power comes great responsibility." And even God understands this and people with great responsibility also have greater punishment upon corrupting.

But on what authority are the LDS punishments created and handed out? So far the official reasoning seems to be derived from the authority that was bestowed upon Moses. Don't you need a historical confirmation of his existence in order to act in the name of his Priesthood? I say this because there is no evidence of millions of people going through the wilderness of which the Torah states happened. There also is no evidence that Israel was ever enslaved by the Egyptians and there is no evidence that God destroyed an entire military force including a well known Pharaoh. I don't mean to be disrespectful, I just have a hard time assigning Godly authority to men who say that they succeed a man who cannot be historically verified. There is a lot more historical evidence for Jesus than Moses.

My point is that absolute power corrupts and power is the ability to create law and enforce it upon a populace. I come from an organization that is trigger happy when dulling out punishment. So far I have heard some very interesting facts regarding your churches attempt to avoid the problem of absolute power. Many organization's and groups do not even make this effort. What are some examples of where your leadership succumbed to absolute power and what were the repercussions?

Regards,

-Sabastious

Edited July 10, 2012 by sabastious

[skippy740]

How will answering that question help you build upon and grow your faith?

[skippy740]

2 Nephi 9:42-43

42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

43 But the things of the wise and the prudent shall be hid from them forever—yea, that happiness which is prepared for the saints.

[sabastious]

How will answering that question help you build upon and grow your faith?

If I am ever to join an official church I have to have faith in it's leaders. I have a strong faith in God and I don't really need any building up in that arena. However the means of which God works through men and their organizations is very important to me. If I can find a group of people who I can agree with and follow their leaders then I will be more utilized by God. Jesus went where the people were when he preached and the people of today are hidden within organized religion.

Knowing the failures of leadership will help me understand them more than hearing about their successes.

Regards,

-Sabastious

[skippy740]

If I am ever to join an official church I have to have faith in it's leaders.

I'm going to be very careful with my words: Thou shalt not trust in the arm of flesh.

The foundation of building a testimony is:

- God, the Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost

- Joseph Smith Jr was the Prophet of the Restoration and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is the Lord's church established again.

- The Book of Mormon is true

- You sustain (current Prophet) as Prophet, Seer and Revelator.

- You sustain the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve as prophets, seers and revelators.

Now, from what you've written, you need to go back to the founding of the church, the restoration of the priesthood and even further - to gain a testimony of the divinity of Jesus Christ and His mission.

I would recommend reading a few chapters here before going on to determine the weaknesses of the current leaders of the church:

Gospel Principles 

[skippy740]

How well are you doing on the "faith experiment"?

Alma 32:27-32

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

So far, I'm not seeing that you are trying the experiment. You are trying to rationalize in your mind intellectually why you should want to join the LDS faith.

You won't come to a decision this way that will help you grow your faith.

Man's ways are not God's ways.

[sabastious]

I would recommend reading a few chapters here before going on to determine the weaknesses of the current leaders of the church:

Thanks for the direction skippy. I am more interested in being educated about the weaknesses of the current LDS leaders than figuring them out myself. Surely you know where they fall short or else you would be putting faith in the arm of flesh, would you not? There is nothing to be ashamed of. Every church leadership is not only imperfect, but suspect to corruption. The way the Serpent seduced Eve was very mysterious because it seemed like he was just controlling her mind. There seemed to be more than meets the eye and Eve was completely unaware of what was happening. I believe that to be the way the Serpent works, by deception and ultimate control. And the biggest targets are the ones with the power to direct people on a specific basis.

Moses gave into vanity and corruption because he was being used by God directly. There is a reason why the Bible shows the fall of leadership like Moses, Solomon and David. It's telling us that leadership is hard on the human mind.

Regards,

-Sabastious

[Vort]

Thanks for the direction skippy. I am more interested in being educated about the weaknesses of the current LDS leaders than figuring them out myself.

I have heard that several of the apostles fart in front of their wives, and at least one member of the First Presidency has occasional morning breath.

Yeah, good luck with that looking for flaws in good men. I bet you find them, you clever guy, you. Maybe others will look for flaws in you, too. Will they find any? Whaddya think?

[skippy740]

If you want to discuss the Story of the Creation, we can do that... in a new thread. I think you'd find LDS beliefs and interpretations much more refreshing than what you've previously been taught.

On my mission, I taught others that we are STUDENTS of the gospel... not blind followers. Just because you join a religious organization does NOT mean that your agency is removed from you and you can't make your own choices.

This is why any discussion on the weaknesses of LDS leaders is a moot point.

If my testimony relied on someone other than God and Christ... then I have a spiritual problem. I take advice, but not orders. I will study and make up my own mind and not be forced into doing anything.

Coersion is Satan's plan. Freedom of Choice is the Lord's plan. (Something else for you to look up is the Council in Heaven - in the gospel principles manual link I provided.)

Discussing other people's weaknesses is also a form of gossip... and is not good for the souls of man to indulge in.

Have you ever done anything you were ashamed of? Want to broadcast it to all the world in a medium where the whole world would read and hear about it? Nor should we be discussing human weaknesses of our current leaders.

In addition, as a moderator, such discussion may be a violation of the rules and the mission of this forum.

[sabastious]

So far, I'm not seeing that you are trying the experiment. You are trying to rationalize in your mind intellectually why you should want to join the LDS faith.

The people in the Book of Mormon cannot be historically verified. I know you have heard it before, but there should be remnants of the civilizations that it speaks of, but nothing conclusive exists. This is the exact opposite with the Bible. The Bible speaks about civilizations that can be historically verified. I have a hard time reconciling this information because the BoM is supposed to be a complimentary book to the Bible, but yet the Bible is the clear victor when it comes to historical verification. The BoM has a lot of interesting philosophy in it, but I frankly do not see it's necessity. The Bible seems to be adequate. I guess so far it has failed my "faith test" with it.

Interestingly though I was told to read Nephi by a missionary. The next day I was sitting down writing a song and playing my guitar and I wrote some lyrics about "chains falling from my feet" and Lo and behold the first chapter of Nephi speaks about chains being taken away from people in order to liberate them. This was a cool coincidence, but it seems too "light" to be considered anything more, imo.

So would you are an organization of people who were all given personal revelation? Why have a missionary service if the Spirit can do it for you?

Regards,

-Sabastious

[Guest]

Do you find any value in faith, or will you only be convinced by absolute, hard-copy evidence?

[skippy740]

Additional questions:

- Are you even READING the scripture verses that have been posted in this thread?

- Pondering them?

I think you're just glancing through them and responding to further your own agenda without wanting to really learn about the LDS faith.

Just my opinion.

[Guest]

I bet you find them, you clever guy, you. Maybe others will look for flaws in you, too. Will they find any? Whaddya think?

For some reason I read this in Gordon Ramsey's voice.

[skippy740]

The people in the Book of Mormon cannot be historically verified. I know you have heard it before, but there should be remnants of the civilizations that it speaks of, but nothing conclusive exists. This is the exact opposite with the Bible. The Bible speaks about civilizations that can be historically verified. I have a hard time reconciling this information because the BoM is supposed to be a complimentary book to the Bible, but yet the Bible is the clear victor when it comes to historical verification. The BoM has a lot of interesting philosophy in it, but I frankly do not see it's necessity. The Bible seems to be adequate. I guess so far it has failed my "faith test" with it.

That's why it takes faith... and why it's pointless to talk about current leaders when you aren't even trying out 'the experiment'.

My sense is that you don't even have a desire to have a spiritual witness of the truth of the message in The Book of Mormon.

Until that changes, your spritual progression will halt. (To use a biblical term: damned)

[sabastious]

Yeah, good luck with that looking for flaws in good men. I bet you find them, you clever guy, you. Maybe others will look for flaws in you, too. Will they find any? Whaddya think?

I have flaws, but they are mostly due to a hellish upbringing that caused lasting emotional scars. It's hard to figure out credit/blame with me because of so much abuse. I am only 28 so I have not had time to smooth out the emotional triggers that seem to come out of no where. I attend regular therapy however because I cannot lean on my own understanding.

Regardless, I don't claim divine authority and I do not enact punishment in the name of the Mosaic Priesthood. Jesus said that when you judge you will be judged in the same accord. That means that church leadership needs to be BETTER than church rank and file because they WILL be passing official judgement. 1 Timothy 3 states the "qualifications for overseers" and the description is that of a person that would be considered better than most. Do you consider your leaders better than the non leaders in any manner?

Regards,

-Sabastious

[sabastious]

Do you find any value in faith, or will you only be convinced by absolute, hard-copy evidence?

Faith in God is a virtue and an innate ability given to us BY God. However faith in men requires SOME hard evidence because if we didn't require that then we would just be leaves in the wind answering the beckoning of lesser men. The more audacious the claim of the man the stronger the evidence is required to have faith in it. I have faith that there are men out there to place faith within. If that makes sense

Regards,

-Sabastious

Edited July 10, 2012 by sabastious

[skippy740]

Here's a lesson about "Church Government" that you may find interesting:

Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual - Section 26 - The Law of Common Consent

[sabastious]

My sense is that you don't even have a desire to have a spiritual witness of the truth of the message in The Book of Mormon.

I need more than a spiritual witness to place faith in a book. I hold the Bible to the same standards as it is just a book as well. What supposed prophets write down is of great interest to me in regards to my faith about God and the universe. A spiritual witness can bolster my faith in God an his purpose, but I need something very substantial for me to place faith in a book. Why have a physical means of education when you need a spiritual guide to have faith in it? The contents should speak for themselves. Why is the supernatural required at all?

I have faith in the Bible because the Roman Catholic Church obviously knew that something happened in the 1st century. Within a relatively short period of time the Church had commandeered the entire ideal of Christianity and was warping it to their own desires. However the fact that such a world power (Roman's) felt the need to assume Christianity as an official creed speaks volumes to what the man named Jesus actually accomplished. Was he the Son of God? I think there is evidence that he was and enough so that my faith in him is not blind.

If I put faith in a book because of an experience that can be chalked up to a confirmation bias then I feel like I am putting faith in my own experiences coupled with the men that wrote it and not God. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the BoM is false, I am just saying that it's very hard to place faith in. Which is why it needs this "spiritual witness."

Regards,

-Sabastious