another reason for not accepting the Gospel

[circusboy01]

That's not a very good title, but it's the best I could think of.

Now I may get a lot of boos and hisses. But I would really like to know if I'm the only one that thinks this way.

I believe that many Pastors, and Priest, from other religions, don't believe that our church is true because of their personal religious convictions. I also believe that there are some, whether they believe or not, who would not leave their church. Because Leaders in our church do not get paid, and they don't want to have to get a real job.

Please keep the boos and hisses to a minimum. I'm not trying to be mean and hateful.

Brother Ray

[Dravin]

Well it is a reason, that is for sure, it's going to be a question of how common it is. It should be noted, the idea that one not only has one's faith to lose but one's livelihood isn't unique to pastors/priests. A stripper, bartender, brewer, and tobacco farmer could be thinking the same thing. As far as characterizing a priest or pastor as not having a real job... I'm inclined to look at the work an LDS Bishop does as a second job, so any pastor or priest putting in similar effort has a real job in my book.

[Guest]

DH's high school best friend is a youth pastor. We asked him what he's going to do for a living when we finally get him to join the church. He wasn't terribly amused.

[circusboy01]

Well it is a reason, that is for sure, it's going to be a question of how common it is. It should be noted, the idea that one not only has one's faith to lose but one's livelihood isn't unique to pastors/priests. A stripper, bartender, brewer, and tobacco farmer could be thinking the same thing. As far as characterizing a priest or pastor as not having a real job... I'm inclined to look at the work an LDS Bishop does as a second job, so any pastor or priest putting in similar effort has a real job in my book.

You are right about this not pertaining to Pastors and Priest alone.

But Bishops, Stake Presidents and other leaders of our church work, every bit as hard at trying to spread the gospel, as the Pastors and Priest of other religions do. On top of this they hold down other jobs.

Pastors and Priest, from other religions, don't have to find other work. They are payed to preach, and they are provided a house to live in.

[prisonchaplain]

I also believe that there are some, whether they believe or not, who would not leave their church. Because Leaders in our church do not get paid, and they don't want to have to get a real job.

Please keep the boos and hisses to a minimum. I'm not trying to be mean and hateful.

Brother Ray

Sorry, but . . .

Booo! Hissss!

[Dravin]

But Bishops, Stake Presidents and other leaders of our church work, every bit as hard at trying to spread the gospel, as the Pastors and Priest of other religions do. On top of this they hold down other jobs.

Maybe it'd help to know where I'm coming from, I rarely see the term 'real job' thrown around unless it is in one of three senses,

1) Someone trying to imply someone else is lazy and doesn't actually do anything but they just have a nice comfy title that earns them a paycheck.

2) Someone is employed at some entry level job to tide them over until they get started on their career.

3) To distinguish between blue collar from white collar work, usually with some element of the first meaning implied.

So I see you trying to toss one or more of those senses on the work of priests or pastors and my thoughts are:

1) There may be lazy pastors who are extremely well compensated for the amount of time and effort they spend serving (some might be inclined to say over compensated) their congregations, but there are plenty who serve with earnestly and vigor.

2) Obviously for such religions being a priest or a pastor (though there are probably part timers out there) isn't the equivalent of working at blockbuster until they can graduate and become an Engineer or what have you. This is the career section of their lives in terms of vocation.

3) There are plenty of white collar Bishops, you may be inclined to do so, but I don't get the sense you'd claim an LDS accountant doesn't have a real job.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Dravin

[circusboy01]

Maybe it'd help to know where I'm coming from, I rarely see the term 'real job' thrown around unless it is in one of three senses,

1) Someone trying to imply someone else is lazy and doesn't actually do anything but they just have a nice comfy title that earns them a paycheck.

2) Someone is employed at some entry level job to tide them over until they get started on their career.

3) To distinguish between blue collar from white collar work, usually with some element of the first meaning implied.

So I see you trying to toss one or more of those senses on the work of priests or pastors and my thoughts are:

1) There may be lazy pastors who are extremely well compensated for the amount of time and effort they spend serving (some might be inclined to say over compensated) their congregations, but there are plenty who serve with earnestly and vigor.

2) Obviously for such religions being a priest or a pastor (though there are probably part timers out there) isn't the equivalent of working at blockbuster until they can graduate and become an Engineer or what have you. This is the career section of their lives in terms of vocation.

3) There are plenty of white collar Bishops, you may be inclined to do so, but I don't get the sense you'd claim an LDS accountant doesn't have a real job.

Why are you hung up on the term "real Job"? i meant nothing by it It just the term I happen to use. I might easily have said, job employed, work what ever I'm simply trying to say that Over and above their callings in the church. they hold other jobs, in which they pay the bills, and feed and clothe their family, etc. Brother Ray

Edited July 21, 2012 by circusboy01

[circusboy01]

Sorry, but . . .

Booo! Hissss!

I should have started out with an apology to you. Didn't mean to offend. But I do make a point don't I? I know, for sure, that some pastures get paid.I've watched every episode of

"Seventh Heaven":lol: Brother Ray

[Dravin]

Why are you hung up on the term "real Job"? i meant nothing by it It just the term I happen to use. I might easily have said, job employed, work what ever I'm simply trying to say that Over and above their callings in the church. they hold other jobs, in which they pay the bills, and feed and clothe their family, etc. Brother Ray

You didn't apply the term 'real jobs' to LDS, you applied it to non-LDS pastors, by saying they don't want to get one. The implication being they don't currently have one. If it's not intended to be some sort of slight though, no worries.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Dravin

[Guest]

Okay, stop the presses.

Just because you don't get paid for it doesn't mean it's not a real job. I'm going to do a BOO HISS!!! on behalf of all Stay-At-Home-Moms on the planet.

Imagine a missionary - leaving their jobs, leaving school, leaving their families to spend 2 years on a mission. Well, guess what. Catholic Priests do that entire bit for their entire LIFETIME! You know how we always tell our missionaries - don't even think about a girlfriend, just do your mission for 2 years. Well, Catholic Priests don't think about girlfriends or wives their entire lifetime.

Pastors and Priests work like missionaries do. They get paid by their respective Churches so they don't have to worry about their sustenance. They can concentrate on the mission field. LDS Bishops don't have lifetime bishop callings.

And no - all the Catholic Priests and Nuns that I know - and I am very close to a lot of them - do not believe the LDS Church is true because they have a testimony from the Holy Spirit that the Catholic Church is true. Now what - you're going to tell them that your Holy Spirit is better than their Holy Spirit?

Edited July 21, 2012 by anatess

[bytor2112]

I think that there are some TBN types that have established their own kingdoms and amassed quite a fortune doing so that would be very challenged to accept the Gospel. Kenneth Copeland, Benni Hihn, are a couple that come to mind...........

[prisonchaplain]

I should have started out with an apology to you. Didn't mean to offend. But I do make a point don't I? I know, for sure, that some pastures get paid.I've watched every episode of

"Seventh Heaven":lol: Brother Ray

I can guarantee you that the # of clergy that fail to convert to your church because they do not want to give up their jobs is statistically insignificant. In my case, I could take up teaching. It's a tough gig, but the hours are much better.

Most clergy have enough education that they could transition to other work, should the Lord reveal to them the truth of the Restoration. I get the intellectual point that it could be tempting to resist conversion because of the inconvenience, but in this case, it truly is an apalling accusation. The disciples were all martyred, save one--and he spent life on a prison island. Do you really think there are masses of clergy that are so spiritually feeble that we resist the Holy Spirit for 30-pieces of silver???

[estradling75]

I see a big difference between a humble preacher/pastor/minister who gets a stipend to meet their (and their family's) modest physical needs. And those that get up on TV(or the pulpit) and spend all (or a good part) about how their flock needs to send in money.

I have no problem with the first, the second I see a priestcraft. The first I see as doing the will of God as best as they understand how (which is all we can do) the second is doing it for the love of money. These two are wildly different in motive and yet both can be called clergy.

[Leah]

Okay, stop the presses.

Just because you don't get paid for it doesn't mean it's not a real job. I'm going to do a BOO HISS!!! on behalf of all Stay-At-Home-Moms on the planet.

Imagine a missionary - leaving their jobs, leaving school, leaving their families to spend 2 years on a mission. Well, guess what. Catholic Priests do that entire bit for their entire LIFETIME! You know how we always tell our missionaries - don't even think about a girlfriend, just do your mission for 2 years. Well, Catholic Priests don't think about girlfriends or wives their entire lifetime.

Pastors and Priests work like missionaries do. They get paid by their respective Churches so they don't have to worry about their sustenance. They can concentrate on the mission field. LDS Bishops don't have lifetime bishop callings.

And no - all the Catholic Priests and Nuns that I know - and I am very close to a lot of them - do not believe the LDS Church is true because they have a testimony from the Holy Spirit that the Catholic Church is true. Now what - you're going to tell them that your Holy Spirit is better than their Holy Spirit?

I don't get the over-reactions to the terms used.

I think Brother Ray's point was clear - that there are clergy who are paid to be clergy. If they were to convert to the LDS church, they would no longer have the job that they support their families with, thus necessitating finding a new job. He is simply wondering if that might be a stumbling point for some. I don't think he was making any sort of judgment, as having the thought - if even for just a moment - of "How do I support my family now?" is perfectly natural.

And don't even get me started on Catholic priests. I worked for the Catholic church for many years, along with a large Catholic institution. While there may be some orders who take a vow of poverty, their residence (some parish priests even having their own private home) is provided, housekeeping is provided, food, clothing, car, health care....and I knew plenty of priests who had more disposable income than most "civilians", complete with very expensive hobbies. They don't have to worry about where their next meal is coming from or if they can afford medical care. Something their parishioners worry about a lot. I had the audacity to ask one priest that I worked for about it, and he became irate and shouted about a 'promise', not a 'vow', as if that somehow explained things.

[Guest]

I don't get the over-reactions to the terms used.

I think Brother Ray's point was clear - that there are clergy who are paid to be clergy. If they were to convert to the LDS church, they would no longer have the job that they support their families with, thus necessitating finding a new job. He is simply wondering if that might be a stumbling point for some. I don't think he was making any sort of judgment, as having the thought - if even for just a moment - of "How do I support my family now?" is perfectly natural.

And don't even get me started on Catholic priests. I worked for the Catholic church for many years, along with a large Catholic institution. While there may be some orders who take a vow of poverty, their residence (some parish priests even having their own private home) is provided, housekeeping is provided, food, clothing, car, health care....and I knew plenty of priests who had more disposable income than most "civilians", complete with very expensive hobbies. They don't have to worry about where their next meal is coming from or if they can afford medical care. Something their parishioners worry about a lot. I had the audacity to ask one priest that I worked for about it, and he became irate and shouted about a 'promise', not a 'vow', as if that somehow explained things.

Oh, Double Boo Hiss!

I'm LDS and I can play that game. You can do a search on the "evils" of certain bishops on this here forum. That doesn't make it at all significant enough to warrant a statement to support a case as generalized as the OP's. You are so jaded with your singular experience you are willing to paint an entire Church as such. Boo Hiss!

Your post made me mad.

Edited July 21, 2012 by anatess

[Maureen]

...I believe that many Pastors, and Priest, from other religions, don't believe that our church is true because of their personal religious convictions. I also believe that there are some, whether they believe or not, who would not leave their church. Because Leaders in our church do not get paid, and they don't want to have to get a real job.

...

...And don't even get me started on Catholic priests. I worked for the Catholic church for many years, along with a large Catholic institution. While there may be some orders who take a vow of poverty, their residence (some parish priests even having their own private home) is provided, housekeeping is provided, food, clothing, car, health care....and I knew plenty of priests who had more disposable income than most "civilians", complete with very expensive hobbies. They don't have to worry about where their next meal is coming from or if they can afford medical care. Something their parishioners worry about a lot. I had the audacity to ask one priest that I worked for about it, and he became irate and shouted about a 'promise', not a 'vow', as if that somehow explained things.

Some Pastors/Ministers of other churches serve small congregations and the salaries that are provided for them are not enough, so many do have other employment outside of their fulltime job as Pastor. My friend's husband is the Pastor of his church but also has a 2nd job to support his family.

Certain leaders of the LDS church like Mission Presidents and General Authorities are supported by their church. Residences, Cars, Traveling expenses, etc. are provided to them by the LDS church.

So it appears non-LDS and LDS churches have more in common after all.

M.

[Leah]

Oh, Double Boo Hiss!

I'm LDS and I can play that game. You can do a search on the "evils" of certain bishops on this here forum. That doesn't make it at all significant enough to warrant a statement to support a case as generalized as the OP's. You are so jaded with your singular experience you are willing to paint an entire Church as such. Boo Hiss!

Your post made me mad.

It is clear that you cannot handle any criticism of the catholic church. That is your problem, not mine. For you to call me "jaded" for offering some facts from many years working for the catholic church...well...it is laughable. I related some factual experiences to illustrate that all priests are not as perfect and self-sacrificing as you would have us believe. I have far worse examples of far worse behavior that I could relate, but they are not relevant to the discussion.

"This here forum"?

Did I say anywhere that all bishops are perfect and blameless? What has that to do with my post? Just because I make factual statements about the behaviors of priests I worked for/with, doesn't in any way equate to my saying that everyone else on the planet is perfect. Nor did I say that all priests act in this manner. I guess it is okay to say negative things about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but not about the catholic church.

You have no idea what the totality of my experience with the catholic church is. You would probably be very surprised if you did.

I am still dismayed at the attack upon the OP (not just yours). It's really over the top. But then, that is the way some people react when others dare to disagree with their viewpoint.

I happened to have the opportunity this afternoon to discuss this question with a gentleman from our ward who, among his various callings, has held the calling of bishop. We had an interesting discussion on how some people are drawn to the Church, even say they have gained a testimony, but there are some things in their lives they are unwilling to give up. He related a number of examples he encountered as a bishop. I would think it not a far stretch to imagine that for many people who join the Church, they give some thought to those parts of their lives they will have to change if they join the church. I don't think it's inconceivable to imagine that someone who has made their living as clergy in another church, in making the decision to be baptized in the LDS church, will have the thought at one time that they will need to find another way of making a living. It is a purely practical train of thought, and one they will have to address at some point in the conversion process, in order to start making plans to find another way to earn a living. For those who choose not to join the Church because of this (if there are any such), perhaps they haven't gained a true testimony.

I knew a Christian pastor who converted to Judaism. In fact, he made the decision in the midst of giving a sermon one Sunday (his story is quite fascinating). Obviously, he had to find a new line of work. Fortunately for him, he was not judged harshly, the way he would be here, for asking himself the question "Do I believe this enough...is my faith strong enough...to abandon not only my previous religion, but my very way of earning a living?". That is not a minor thing to give up. I would venture to say that it has a bigger impact on one's life than giving up coffee. They are walking away from a whole way of living. Instead of judging...we should be grateful for their faith. But even though there are numerous posts on this forum chastising people for judging others....I guess some people think it is okay to judge as long as they get to do the judging.

[Maureen]

Leah, the OP said: I also believe that there are some, whether they believe or not, who would not leave their church. Because Leaders in our church do not get paid, and they don't want to have to get a real job.

...as if to insinuate that the work of Pastors or Ministers of other churches is some how not honourable or respectable.

M.

[Bensalem]

That's not a very good title, but it's the best I could think of.

Now I may get a lot of boos and hisses. But I would really like to know if I'm the only one that thinks this way.

I believe that many Pastors, and Priest, from other religions, don't believe that our church is true because of their personal religious convictions. I also believe that there are some, whether they believe or not, who would not leave their church. Because Leaders in our church do not get paid, and they don't want to have to get a real job.

Please keep the boos and hisses to a minimum. I'm not trying to be mean and hateful.

Brother Ray

Makes perfect sense. It's easier to stick by your convictions when your livelihood depends on it.

[Bensalem]

I can guarantee you that the # of clergy that fail to convert to your church because they do not want to give up their jobs is statistically insignificant. In my case, I could take up teaching. It's a tough gig, but the hours are much better.

Most clergy have enough education that they could transition to other work, should the Lord reveal to them the truth of the Restoration. I get the intellectual point that it could be tempting to resist conversion because of the inconvenience, but in this case, it truly is an apalling accusation. The disciples were all martyred, save one--and he spent life on a prison island. Do you really think there are masses of clergy that are so spiritually feeble that we resist the Holy Spirit for 30-pieces of silver???

You mean it is not six days of leisure and one day of work?

[Bensalem]

I happened to have the opportunity this afternoon to discuss this question with a gentleman from our ward who, among his various callings, has held the calling of bishop. We had an interesting discussion on how some people are drawn to the Church, even say they have gained a testimony, but there are some things in their lives they are unwilling to give up. He related a number of examples he encountered as a bishop. I would think it not a far stretch to imagine that for many people who join the Church, they give some thought to those parts of their lives they will have to change if they join the church. I don't think it's inconceivable to imagine that someone who has made their living as clergy in another church, in making the decision to be baptized in the LDS church, will have the thought at one time that they will need to find another way of making a living. It is a purely practical train of thought, and one they will have to address at some point in the conversion process, in order to start making plans to find another way to earn a living. For those who choose not to join the Church because of this (if there are any such), perhaps they haven't gained a true testimony.

Testimony is critical. I have dealt with plenty of investigators who think the LDS church is great and it's people are genuine but can't get themselves to join because of WOW issues, the promise to tithe, and very often the idea that they would have to serve in a calling.

[circusboy01]

You didn't apply the term 'real jobs' to LDS, you applied it to non-LDS pastors, by saying they don't want to get one. The implication being they don't currently have one. If it's not intended to be some sort of slight though, no worries.

I wish I would have said something like employment outside of the church. Instead of "real Job" Like I said, in my other post, I didn't mean anything by it, except Pastors and Priest from other religions don't have to get other employment. I never meant it to say that they were to lazy to get other employment. Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

Okay, stop the presses.

Just because you don't get paid for it doesn't mean it's not a real job. I'm going to do a BOO HISS!!! on behalf of all Stay-At-Home-Moms on the planet.

Imagine a missionary - leaving their jobs, leaving school, leaving their families to spend 2 years on a mission. Well, guess what. Catholic Priests do that entire bit for their entire LIFETIME! You know how we always tell our missionaries - don't even think about a girlfriend, just do your mission for 2 years. Well, Catholic Priests don't think about girlfriends or wives their entire lifetime.

Pastors and Priests work like missionaries do. They get paid by their respective Churches so they don't have to worry about their sustenance. They can concentrate on the mission field. LDS Bishops don't have lifetime bishop callings.

And no - all the Catholic Priests and Nuns that I know - and I am very close to a lot of them - do not believe the LDS Church is true because they have a testimony from the Holy Spirit that the Catholic Church is true. Now what - you're going to tell them that your Holy Spirit is better than their Holy Spirit?

As I said in my reply to Draven's last post I did not mean anything by the term "Real Job"

My Post was a simple comparison of Our leaders who have to be gainfully employed to pay their bill, feed and clothe their families etc. with Pastors and Priest ( I just realized I should have been using the word Preachers instead of Priest) who get payed for preaching.

Where did the thing about Missionaries not thinking about girl friends for 2 years and Catholic Priest not thinking about girl friend or wives there entire lifetime. Come from? It has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make in my Post.

Catholic Priest don't have girlfriends or wives because they believe false doctrine. Who's to say they don't think about them. ;0)

Also where in my Post did I say anything about testimonies. I realize Catholics have a Testimony of the truthfulness of their Church that is just as strong as our Testimonies, for that matter. So do Baptists, Jehovah Witnesses, Lutherans, Pentecostal's and all the rest.

Nowhere in my Posts did I purposely imply anything different. Brother Ray

Edited July 21, 2012 by circusboy01

[prisonchaplain]

I see a big difference between a humble preacher/pastor/minister who gets a stipend to meet their (and their family's) modest physical needs. And those that get up on TV(or the pulpit) and spend all (or a good part) about how their flock needs to send in money.

I have no problem with the first, the second I see a priestcraft. The first I see as doing the will of God as best as they understand how (which is all we can do) the second is doing it for the love of money. These two are wildly different in motive and yet both can be called clergy.

I'd argue that even the blatant self-enriching tv clergy are not resisting the LDS gospel, due to money and position. They are even struggling to embrace the historic gospel--the Restoration is probably not even on their radar screen.

[Bensalem]

I'd argue that even the blatant self-enriching tv clergy are not resisting the LDS gospel, due to money and position. They are even struggling to embrace the historic gospel--the Restoration is probably not even on their radar screen.

I think they don't want to shoot the cash cow. They have already justified to themselves that their work warrants the money, after all they are saving souls.