another reason for not accepting the Gospel

[Guest]

As I said in my reply to Draven's last post I did not mean anything by the term "Real Job"

My Post was a simple comparison of Our leaders who have to be gainfully employed to pay their bill, feed and clothe their families etc. with Pastors and Priest ( I just realized I should have been using the word Preachers instead of Priest) who get payed for preaching.

Where did the thing about Missionaries not thinking about girl friends for 2 years and Catholic Priest not thinking about girl friend or wives there entire lifetime. Come from? It has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make in my Post.

Catholic Priest don't have girlfriends or wives because they believe false doctrine. Who's to say they don't think about them. ;0)

Also where in my Post did I say anything about testimonies. I realize Catholics have a Testimony of the truthfulness of their Church that is just as strong as our Testimonies, for that matter. So do Baptists, Jehovah Witnesses, Lutherans, Pentecostal's and all the rest.

Nowhere in my Posts did I purposely imply anything different. Brother Ray

Where did the thing about Missionaries not thinking about girl friends for 2 years and Catholic Priest not thinking about girl friend or wives there entire lifetime come from? It came from your implication that Pastors and Priests (well, you changed it to Preachers - so are you excluding Catholics from that set?) don't have real jobs like Bishops do.

Catholic Priests are closer to Missionaries (no jobs) than they are to Bishops (holding jobs). It is a comparison with a Missionary (who, I guess you also consider as not having a "real job") to a Priest who is a lifetime missionary. The LDS Church don't allow their missionaries to hold "real jobs" just like the Catholic Church don't allow their Priests to hold "real jobs". They are not allowed girlfriends/wives just like Missionaries are encouraged to concentrate on their mission work than girlfriends - the point is that Catholic Priests are just like LDS Missionaries - except it's a lifetime calling, not a 2 year calling. They don't get "paid" for preaching just like LDS Missionaries are not "paid" for preaching. They're sustained by Church membership so they CAN preach.

Now, Priests hold at least 8 years of education past High School - 4 years of college in the field of their own choice and then go on to a Master's Degree in Theology/Divinity at a Catholic University. It's a requirement for ordination. This education combined with the experiences of priesthood service can be quite a valuable money-making skill if applied outside of the Catholic Church. So, it is highly unlikely that they are tied to the Catholic Church because they can't get a "real job" elsewhere. It is more likely that they are tied to the Catholic Church because they have a testimony of it. And that's why I mentioned Testimony.

Make sense now?

[circusboy01]

I can guarantee you that the # of clergy that fail to convert to your church because they do not want to give up their jobs is statistically insignificant. In my case, I could take up teaching. It's a tough gig, but the hours are much better.

I never said I was talking about all, or even a majority. Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

Where did the thing about Missionaries not thinking about girl friends for 2 years and Catholic Priest not thinking about girl friend or wives there entire lifetime come from? It came from your implication that Pastors and Priests (well, you changed it to Preachers - so are you excluding Catholics from that set?) don't have real jobs like Bishops do.

Catholic Priests are closer to Missionaries (no jobs) than they are to Bishops (holding jobs). It is a comparison with a Missionary (who, I guess you also consider as not having a "real job") to a Priest who is a lifetime missionary. The LDS Church don't allow their missionaries to hold "real jobs" just like the Catholic Church don't allow their Priests to hold "real jobs". They are not allowed girlfriends/wives just like Missionaries are encouraged to concentrate on their mission work than girlfriends - the point is that Catholic Priests are just like LDS Missionaries - except it's a lifetime calling, not a 2 year calling. They don't get "paid" for preaching just like LDS Missionaries are not "paid" for preaching. They're sustained by Church membership so they CAN preach.

Now, Priests hold at least 8 years of education past High School - 4 years of college in the field of their own choice and then go on to a Master's Degree in Theology/Divinity at a Catholic University. It's a requirement for ordination. This education combined with the experiences of priesthood service can be quite a valuable money-making skill if applied outside of the Catholic Church. So, it is highly unlikely that they are tied to the Catholic Church because they can't get a "real job" elsewhere. It is more likely that they are tied to the Catholic Church because they have a testimony of it. And that's why I mentioned Testimony.

Make sense now?

Actually. Yes it does. But your replies, come across really hateful, towards me. I was not trying to be hateful when I wrote the post.

Please don't reply by saying something like "You might not have meant it to be hateful, but that's the way it came out" I already know that. Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

Where did the thing about Missionaries not thinking about girl friends for 2 years and Catholic Priest not thinking about girl friend or wives there entire lifetime come from? It came from your implication that Pastors and Priests (well, you changed it to Preachers - so are you excluding Catholics from that set?) don't have real jobs like Bishops do.

Catholic Priests are closer to Missionaries (no jobs) than they are to Bishops (holding jobs). It is a comparison with a Missionary (who, I guess you also consider as not having a "real job") to a Priest who is a lifetime missionary. The LDS Church don't allow their missionaries to hold "real jobs" just like the Catholic Church don't allow their Priests to hold "real jobs". They are not allowed girlfriends/wives just like Missionaries are encouraged to concentrate on their mission work than girlfriends - the point is that Catholic Priests are just like LDS Missionaries - except it's a lifetime calling, not a 2 year calling. They don't get "paid" for preaching just like LDS Missionaries are not "paid" for preaching. They're sustained by Church membership so they CAN preach.

Now, Priests hold at least 8 years of education past High School - 4 years of college in the field of their own choice and then go on to a Master's Degree in Theology/Divinity at a Catholic University. It's a requirement for ordination. This education combined with the experiences of priesthood service can be quite a valuable money-making skill if applied outside of the Catholic Church. So, it is highly unlikely that they are tied to the Catholic Church because they can't get a "real job" elsewhere. It is more likely that they are tied to the Catholic Church because they have a testimony of it. And that's why I mentioned Testimony.

Make sense now?

Actually. Yes it does. But your replies, come across really hateful, towards me. I was not trying to be hateful when I wrote the post.

Please don't reply by saying something like "You might not have meant it to be hateful, but that's the way it came out" I already know that. Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

I don't get the over-reactions to the terms used.

I think Brother Ray's point was clear - that there are clergy who are paid to be clergy. If they were to convert to the LDS church, they would no longer have the job that they support their families with, thus necessitating finding a new job. He is simply wondering if that might be a stumbling point for some. I don't think he was making any sort of judgment, as having the thought - if even for just a moment - of "How do I support my family now?" is perfectly natural.

And don't even get me started on Catholic priests. I worked for the Catholic church for many years, along with a large Catholic institution. While there may be some orders who take a vow of poverty, their residence (some parish priests even having their own private home) is provided, housekeeping is provided, food, clothing, car, health care....and I knew plenty of priests who had more disposable income than most "civilians", complete with very expensive hobbies. They don't have to worry about where their next meal is coming from or if they can afford medical care. Something their parishioners worry about a lot. I had the audacity to ask one priest that I worked for about it, and he became irate and shouted about a 'promise', not a 'vow', as if that somehow explained things.

Thank you Leah. For understanding what I was trying to say. I didn't read the posts in order, and I was regretting that I brought up the subject. Until I resad your post. Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

Some Pastors/Ministers of other churches serve small congregations and the salaries that are provided for them are not enough, so many do have other employment outside of their fulltime job as Pastor. My friend's husband is the Pastor of his church but also has a 2nd job to support his family.

Certain leaders of the LDS church like Mission Presidents and General Authorities are supported by their church. Residences, Cars, Traveling expenses, etc. are provided to them by the LDS church.

So it appears non-LDS and LDS churches have more in common after all.

M.

I didn't know about Ministers and Pastors holding down second jobs. Thank you for letting me know.

I do know about the President and General Authorities being provided for.

Thank you for explaining this to me, without sounding like you, can't stand me. Some of the other Posts kind of hurt. Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

Leah, the OP said: I also believe that there are some, whether they believe or not, who would not leave their church. Because Leaders in our church do not get paid, and they don't want to have to get a real job.

...as if to insinuate that the work of Pastors or Ministers of other churches is some how not honourable or respectable.

M.

I have already explained that I did not mean it that way, and have already apologized for the way it sounded.

I guess my apology feel on deaf ears. Or was it that you didn't think I was sincere.

[NeuroTypical]

Everyone please pay special attention to site rule #2.

2. Please be conscious of the fact that although LDS.NET is aimed towards an LDS audience, that the membership of this site consists of friends from an array of different backgrounds, beliefs, and cultures. Please be respectful and courteous to all, and know that everyone who is willing to follow the Rules and Terms of LDS.NET are welcome to participate and be a member of LDS.NET.

This forum is not a place to bash other relgions or adherents of other religions.

[Gramajane]

It happened to you son on his Houston TX mission, that a preacher realized that the church was true, but then that if he joined that he would have no income. --- so far as we know, he has not joined. Yet there are others I read about who did join, and did lose their career, but then one went on to write books, and others to other work, like teaching.

I do believe that most leaders of other congregations DO a lot of work for good, God and that it does help. It is just that there is I believe more good, and more for God that they could do, yet everyone NEEDS to follow their own conscience or they are not living their own lives. I just pray that we all will continually seek for guidance from the Holy Spirit.

In my studies I also came across the Nun who was such an amazing person that she was assigned to work in Rome, but the Holy Spirit lead her to the church-- it is an amazing story.

How about we work to not judge others?

I even have wondered if sometimes God has held a few people from accepting the gospel, as he needed them to work "outside" the gospel to protect the church etc. I am thinking of Colonel Kane (I think I have the name right?) during pioneer times.

=== How about Lets just each look to our own lives in following Jesus while we offer the good we have to any who will listen? --- It feels right to me :)

[Guest]

Actually. Yes it does. But your replies, come across really hateful, towards me. I was not trying to be hateful when I wrote the post.

Please don't reply by saying something like "You might not have meant it to be hateful, but that's the way it came out" I already know that. Brother Ray

I only made one reply to your OP and it wasn't intended to be hateful just like your OP was not intended to be hateful. The Boo Hiss was a play on your OP and Prisonchaplain's response.

My aggravated post was addressed to Leah, not you, for her hateful post against the Catholic Church.

The LDS Church gets a lot of bashing from other Churches so we know how that feels like. I hate it when LDS folks, or members of LDS.net engage in bashing other churches and that's why I reacted to Leah very strongly.

[Jean]

This is interesting conjecture of why pastors and priests do not join our church. I've been a long-time member but my father was a minister when I joined the church. He pastored an evangelistic church and almost always worked extremely hard at a job the whole time he was a minister. In fact when I was a child he pastored at a Sioux Indian Mission and received no compensation for it for over 5 years. (We were provided a place to live at the back of the church but my Dad had to pay all the other bills) Almost all the other pastors in his district also worked an extra job.

Pastors work very hard at their jobs as a pastor too. They don't have an organization like our church where we have home teachers and visiting teachers to check on the members. The pastor has to make all the calls on the sick and hospitalized. He has many visits he makes and counseling he does also. He's the one that gives all the sermons which takes preparation. I don't think it is too much of a problem that ministers or priests would not join our church because of losing their jobs.

They don't join the church because they haven't studied it. They don't study it because they are convinced that adding the Book of Mormon is a sin and no other book should be joined with the Bible. Many of the other churches (especially evangelistic churches) are given material to teach their congregation that Mormons and Jehovah Wittnesses are cults and it is usually the pastor that teaches this material. That is their experience and if they haven't been in contact with any Mormons, they are pretty set in their ways. They don't have any idea that we accept the atonement and are forgiven of our sins... and that we follow Christ to the best of our ability.

I joined the church because of my best friend and seeing her life and example. It made me study the church and I had to do something with the information I was given. I prayed and felt it was true so I joined.

I went to an interesting fireside last night that was given by an evangelistic minister that joined the church last year. He gave a great testimony of his conversion and it came because of getting acquainted with some good members. His name is Tom Scott and it will be interesting to hear his testimony after he has been in the church awhile.

Gentle Soul

[circusboy01]

Everyone please pay special attention to site rule #2. This forum is not a place to bash other religions or adherents of other religions.

If this post is because of my post about Pastors and Priest not wanting to join because they would have to get regular jobs. I do understand. I didn't realize it would be s controversial.

because I never meant it that way. I do feel, though that I owe Prison Chaplin an apology,and I will do that as soon as I finish this post. Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

I can guarantee you that the # of clergy that fail to convert to your church because they do not want to give up their jobs is statistically insignificant. In my case, I could take up teaching. It's a tough gig, but the hours are much better.

Most clergy have enough education that they could transition to other work, should the Lord reveal to them the truth of the Restoration. I get the intellectual point that it could be tempting to resist conversion because of the inconvenience, but in this case, it truly is an apalling accusation. The disciples were all martyred, save one--and he spent life on a prison island. Do you really think there are masses of clergy that are so spiritually feeble that we resist the Holy Spirit for 30-pieces of silver???

I apologize to you for my post. I should have thought about it more. If I had I probably would not have posted it. For some reason,yesterday, a thought came to me. "I'll bet some Pastors and Priest from other Churches don't join because they would have to get jobs'" and right to the computer I went. I realize that you probably, took it personally, and I understand why. Now I do believe what I said in my Post, but, I agree with you that the amount is probably minuscule. Hope my post didn't cloud your judgement of me. I'm really not such a bad guy. Brother Ray

[Maureen]

Brother Ray, maybe this thread of yours can be a lesson in how to be tactful when starting a topic on a forum.

Better luck next time.

M.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Maureen

[AnthonyB]

Just wanted to point out that there are several denominations that like the LDS do not have any paid clergy (eg Christian Brethren).

[circusboy01]

I only made one reply to your OP and it wasn't intended to be hateful just like your OP was not intended to be hateful. The Boo Hiss was a play on your OP and Prisonchaplain's response.

My aggravated post was addressed to Leah, not you, for her hateful post against the Catholic Church.

The LDS Church gets a lot of bashing from other Churches so we know how that feels like. I hate it when LDS folks, or members of LDS.net engage in bashing other churches and that's why I reacted to Leah very strongly.

So there is no bad feelings between us. Right? I'm glad Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

Brother Ray, maybe this thread of yours can be a lesson in how to be tactful when starting a topic on a forum.

Better luck next time.

M.

I think, maybe, if a post has to be tactful, perhaps it shouldn't be posted in the first place.

Something I should have thought about. Brother Ray

[prisonchaplain]

I apologize to you for my post. I should have thought about it more. If I had I probably would not have posted it. For some reason,yesterday, a thought came to me. "I'll bet some Pastors and Priest from other Churches don't join because they would have to get jobs'" and right to the computer I went. I realize that you probably, took it personally, and I understand why. Now I do believe what I said in my Post, but, I agree with you that the amount is probably minuscule. Hope my post didn't cloud your judgement of me. I'm really not such a bad guy. Brother Ray

Sometimes people are over-protective of me here. No, I did not take your post personally...never thought you were implying that my reason for not joining had to do with my career. So, no worries there.

Also, I hope you realize that my "boo hiss" was also just a play on your title. What I meant to be clever may have come across as upset.

[circusboy01]

Just wanted to point out that there are several denominations that like the LDS do not have any paid clergy (eg Christian Brethren).

Don't many of the leaders of the "born again" Churches receive no pay? You know the ones that are non- denominational. ( I think that's the right word.)

[prisonchaplain]

Don't many of the leaders of the "born again" Churches receive no pay? You know the ones that are non- denominational. ( I think that's the right word.)

The vast majority of "born again" "evangelical" "non-denominational" "independent" clergy do receive pay. Most denominational pastors do as well. A few groups have joined yours in relying on volunteer leadership.

If I am not mistaken two groups that pay some of the lowest supports are the Catholic church (which relies on celibate clergy) and the Salvation Army.

Pays can vary greatly, but most of our churches seem to pay pastors about the same salary as an experienced school teacher. Education requirements are similar, though pastors do not enjoy the same hours.

The tele-evangelists really distort the public's view of clergy. We work hard, and understand that most of our rewards will not be earthly. Nevertheless, compared to LDS bishops, we can certainly be thankful that we are supported in our callings, so that most of us are full-time.

If you ever want to ask an LDS "clergyperson" what they think of the benefits and drawbacks of being supported to do the ministry fulltime, you'll have to ask one of your military chaplains.

[circusboy01]

Sometimes people are over-protective of me here. No, I did not take your post personally...never thought you were implying that my reason for not joining had to do with my career. So, no worries there.

Also, I hope you realize that my "boo hiss" was also just a play on your title. What I meant to be clever may have come across as upset.

I did take the Boo Hisss on your first as a play on my title. But your second post with the mad icon, and reference to "Thirty Pieces of Silver" did sound like you were very upset.

It also upset me to be compared to Judas.

But I think all is okay between us now, and I hope any disagreements that might come in the future. Will always end up with it all being okay between us. Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

The vast majority of "born again" "evangelical" "non-denominational" "independent" clergy do receive pay. Most denominational pastors do as well. A few groups have joined yours in relying on volunteer leadership.

If I am not mistaken two groups that pay some of the lowest supports are the Catholic church (which relies on celibate clergy) and the Salvation Army.

Pays can vary greatly, but most of our churches seem to pay pastors about the same salary as an experienced school teacher. Education requirements are similar, though pastors do not enjoy the same hours.

The tele-evangelists really distort the public's view of clergy. We work hard, and understand that most of our rewards will not be earthly. Nevertheless, compared to LDS bishops, we can certainly be thankful that we are supported in our callings, so that most of us are full-time.

If you ever want to ask an LDS "clergyperson" what they think of the benefits and drawbacks of being supported to do the ministry fulltime, you'll have to ask one of your military chaplains.

Thanks for that information. I thought "Born Again's As the Hippie Chicks coming around asking if we had been saved , or if we knew Jesus, or something like that. I always thought that a lot of them just got together. But it wasn't an official Church or Religion.

Maybe that's the way some of them started. I am thinking back to the mid 60s

Before I end I want it known, that, in writing this Post I did not mean to offend Hippies, chicks, "Born Again Christians, or anybody from the mid 60s :) Brother Ray.

[circusboy01]

Sometimes people are over-protective of me here. No, I did not take your post personally...never thought you were implying that my reason for not joining had to do with my career. So, no worries there.

Also, I hope you realize that my "boo hiss" was also just a play on your title. What I meant to be clever may have come across as upset.

Do you mind if I ask why you decided to join LDS.Net?, and has your opinion of Latter-day Saints changed since you joined? ( hopefully for the better.) I'll understand if it's none of my business. Brother Ray.

[prisonchaplain]

But your second post with the mad icon, and reference to "Thirty Pieces of Silver" did sound like you were very upset.

It also upset me to be compared to Judas.

That was partial misunderstanding and partial reaction--I "felt" (I know...cyber feeling is a bit ridiculous) that you were doubling-down on the idea that clergy would reject the truth for manna. Also, I did not mean to compare you to Judas, but rather "felt" you were comparing paid clergy to Judas (by suggesting they would prefer their salaries to the truth of the Restoration).

But I think all is okay between us now, and I hope any disagreements that might come in the future. Will always end up with it all being okay between us. Brother Ray

Agreed. Your point was not without merit...if a clergyperson felt compelled to join your faith, it is possible that losing a paid leadership position could be a negative temptation. It's just that I don't see that happening very often at all.

Thank you for being open to feedback, and for be willing to understand some of our reactions. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Do you mind if I ask why you decided to join LDS.Net?, and has your opinion of Latter-day Saints changed since you joined? ( hopefully for the better.) I'll understand if it's none of my business. Brother Ray.

Eleven asked me this same question not too long ago. See:

http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/47629-prisionchaplin-may-i-ask.html

As for how my opinion has changed, it has improved. I am very impressed with the intelligence, openness, and kindness that gets expressed through these posts. Frankly, you have one of the best faith-based social sites going, in my not so humble opinion.