What do you do?

[Guest]

Rewinding a bit. I noticed that single parents were mentioned, and that for some, this is another case of incompetence for parenthood. I couldn't disagree more with this mindset. I think regardless of sexual orientation or unconventional family unit ("parent role" being single parent, grandparent, etc), children deserve the opportunity to a home life. And to deny a child this due to less than perfect arrangements is, personally, beyond me.

Bini, you're not understanding my point at all. This is not a matter of the measure of competence of parents. It is a matter of the Nature of Man and how God desires his children to progress.

I said this a lot on this thread. There is a REASON man and woman are ordained by God in marriage and NOTHING ELSE. And that ONLY within this ordination is the power of procreation be wielded. If man and woman are interchangeable or optional, there wouldn't be a reason for this ordination.

Now, of course God does not deprive man of free will. We are to follow God's plan to the best of our knowledge and abilities. Children deserve a home life of a mother and a father. The solution to children without parents is not to put them in undesirable situations just like the solution to heart attacks is not an aspirin. The solution should center on enhancing the moral lives of society.

I mean - we can talk about 5 billion topics like this - where there's God's path and Man's path and we get to build our principles on the rock or the sand. Would you rather condone that your daughter get an abortion so that she won't go to the back alley and take out an unwanted child with a hanger? My answer will always be No. It's not a dichotomy. I'd rather not condone abortion and at the same time work to provide my daughter with moral alternatives. Now, are there people fighting for women to get an abortion to reduce the risk of removal by hanger? You bet. I can think of 5 other moral Box A versus Box B scenarios like this one.

Edited August 4, 2012 by anatess

[Misshalfway]

So, I think what I'm hearing people say is that if a gay child asks his/her orthodox LDS parents to write a letter to court, that the parents should not write that letter.

And the reason is that standing up for God's definitions of family life outweighs the desires of the gay prospective parent and/or the needs of the child waiting to be adopted. So, it's better in the long run to take every measure to support the proclamation even if it means a rift in the relationship with the gay child, or postponing/preventing parenthood to children who need good homes.

Yes?

Let's say I have two adult children who happen to be single and who each want to adopt a child. The one, a 42 yr old hetero female asks for a letter. The younger 40 yr old gay female asks for a letter. Does the parent say yes to the one and no to the other, because one is hetero and one is not? Or maybe the parent should say no to both because neither obey the proclamation.....gay and unmarried both disqualify.

If my close atheist friends who live down the block ask me for a letter, do I deny them because God wouldn't want a child living in a home that wouldn't teach them the gospel?

One thing I know for sure. A child who grows up with attachment (even if it is an insecure attachment) fairs better in life and has a better chance of absorbing the gospel whenever it's presented, than a child who grows up with no attachment. Depriving a child of attachment is like depriving them of air. The damage lasts a lifetime and interferes with everything.

[Vort]

I cannot believe people would choose not to cut off their children's fingers and instead allow them to have their legs amputated! Do you have any idea what a terrible burden it is to be legless and in a wheelchair? Bad though a digitectomy might be, they still have their thumbs (usually) and can adapt! It is far less disfiguring then losing your legs!

Hmmm. What if you don't want to cut off their fingers OR their legs?

I know of many married heterosexual couples who want to adopt and cannot. They don't insist on "perfect" babies, but they are deemed too old or poor or otherwise unfit.

So the kids are adopted out to a HOMOSEXUAL couple?! Or a SINGLE parent?!

Madness.

If droves of children are being refused adoption because there simply are not enough loving heterosexual married couples to take them all, then I think we have little choice but to open the adoption ranks to unmarrieds, singles, and homosexuals. As far as I know, that is not the case.

[Guest]

I cannot believe people would choose not to cut off their children's fingers and instead allow them to have their legs amputated! Do you have any idea what a terrible burden it is to be legless and in a wheelchair? Bad though a digitectomy might be, they still have their thumbs (usually) and can adapt! It is far less disfiguring then losing your legs!

Hmmm. What if you don't want to cut off their fingers OR their legs?

I know of many married heterosexual couples who want to adopt and cannot. They don't insist on "perfect" babies, but they are deemed too old or poor or otherwise unfit.

So the kids are adopted out to a HOMOSEXUAL couple?! Or a SINGLE parent?!

Madness.

If droves of children are being refused adoption because there simply are not enough loving heterosexual married couples to take them all, then I think we have little choice but to open the adoption ranks to unmarrieds, singles, and homosexuals. As far as I know, that is not the case.

Posts like these makes me want to hug a Vort...

Okay now... don't get too excited. I still don't want to be a Vort's Geek Club member.

[Guest]

If droves of children are being refused adoption because there simply are not enough loving heterosexual married couples to take them all, then I think we have little choice but to open the adoption ranks to unmarrieds, singles, and homosexuals. As far as I know, that is not the case.

And if that was the case, I would first explore ways to increase the number of loving heterosexual married couples who will be willing to open their homes up for orphaned children... There are waaaaaaaayyyy more loving heterosexual couples out there than the non-traditional ones. If it comes to this, I have room for 4 more children in my home. I mean - I got 4 extra kids running around the house today as it is. They've been here for 3 days. I'm not even sure if they intend to go home before Church tomorrow. I don't mind having them over through Sunday because the rule of the house is - if you don't go home before Church on Sunday, you're attending 3 hours of LDS Church. Oh, did I mention none of them are Mormons? Sweetness.

[Misshalfway]

Hm. There's lots of black and white thinking being applied to a very complicated issue. Which is fine.....it's just that most of which aren't answering the original question.

Do you give a letter to your gay kid or not? If you do....does it violate the proclamation.

BTW... for anyone whose really reading me. I haven't actually taken a position either way. Just sharing perspectives....

[Misshalfway]

I know of many married heterosexual couples who want to adopt and cannot. They don't insist on "perfect" babies, but they are deemed too old or poor or otherwise unfit.

So the kids are adopted out to a HOMOSEXUAL couple?! Or a SINGLE parent?!

Madness.

Madness, huh?

Pretty strong word.

I've got a friend. She's older, single, and drop dead beautiful in all ways (men are idiots ) but she, with prayerful support, decided to adopt a 16 yr old teen who was struggling in the foster system. It was the best union that ever happened! She saved that girl.

Doesn't sound like madness to me. Madness was the family she came from. Madness was the broken foster system that damaged her more.

I also have a friend who is single and gay who had a child while married to her first husband. What would your logic have us do? Extricate the child from the "madness"???

While we value the celestial and advocate for it all ways we can, we don't live there yet. And, even in the perfect mormon church, it can often look a little messy. Messy isn't always madness. It's often just doing the best we can.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Misshalfway

[Vort]

Do you give a letter to your gay kid or not? If you do....does it violate the proclamation.

I have not answered because I don't know. My initial inclination is to say, "Of course not!!!!!!" (Though perhaps with a few more exclamation points.) But in reality? My own child, a decent and loving human being who lives in a homosexual relationship, asks for such a recommendation? I really don't know, and hope never to find out.

[Misshalfway]

I have not answered because I don't know. My initial inclination is to say, "Of course not!!!!!!" (Though perhaps with a few more exclamation points.) But in reality? My own child, a decent and loving human being who lives in a homosexual relationship, asks for such a recommendation? I really don't know, and hope never to find out.

Which leads to the most wisdom of all.

None of us really knows until we are faced with the hard decision. This is where the gospel saves. Because above all of our dogma is revelation. God guides us individually. And sometimes he leads us to cut off Laban's head.

[Guest]

I get the idea that you guys think we have all these children living an Oliver Twist kind of existence in awful orphanages run by Carol Burnett. That's not really the case in the US anymore, at all. Most of the older children have been removed from homes, not orphaned, and are living in foster care (and I do think there are bad foster homes, but I hope most are good. Just like any other family.). As for babies, it seems to me that anyone I know who is adopting is waiting for a pregnant woman to choose them. So we're not talking about babies languishing in some warehouse orphanage where they're not being taken care of. Having this conversation with that kind of underlying hyperbole isn't really helpful.

[Guest]

So I guess my point is, given the choice, yes, I do believe that every child is entitled to be brought up with a mother and a father. If I write a letter for a gay person to move forward with the adoption process, I'm writing a letter to guarantee that that will never happen for a child. We as a society are not in a place where children have no other choice. As much as I love my children, I don't think that love means that I need to compromise what I believe is best for other children, and for society.

I love my gay cousin as though he were my brother. For all intents and purposes, he is. I know it would make him happy in this realm to be married to his partner. That doesn't mean I'm out advocating for gay marriage.

[Leah]

Posts like these makes me want to hug a Vort...

Okay now... don't get too excited. I still don't want to be a Vort's Geek Club member.

"Hug a Vort".

Can't you just see that on a bumper sticker?

[Just_A_Guy]

Hm. There's lots of black and white thinking being applied to a very complicated issue. Which is fine.....it's just that most of which aren't answering the original question.

Do you give a letter to your gay kid or not? If you do....does it violate the proclamation.

BTW... for anyone whose really reading me. I haven't actually taken a position either way. Just sharing perspectives....

Why not just write a letter telling the truth - that you think your kid is great and has all the personal qualities that would make a great parent, etc - but that your personal belief is that kids do better in a mother-father environment; and you would have concerns about the child's welfare in such a relationship. Not knowing the child's background, or the other placement options that are available, you respectfully submit that issue to the Court's discretion.

[Misshalfway]

Why not just write a letter telling the truth - that you think your kid is great and has all the personal qualities that would make a great parent, etc - but that your personal belief is that kids do better in a mother-father environment; and you would have concerns about the child's welfare in such a relationship. Not knowing the child's background, or the other placement options that are available, you respectfully submit that issue to the Court's discretion.

This is the answer that calms most of the concerns in my mind. I can support the Proclamation and I can support my kid.

At that point, if my kid gets upset I could deal with that without any backlash of guilt either way.

[Misshalfway]

I get the idea that you guys think we have all these children living an Oliver Twist kind of existence in awful orphanages run by Carol Burnett. That's not really the case in the US anymore, at all. Most of the older children have been removed from homes, not orphaned, and are living in foster care (and I do think there are bad foster homes, but I hope most are good. Just like any other family.). As for babies, it seems to me that anyone I know who is adopting is waiting for a pregnant woman to choose them. So we're not talking about babies languishing in some warehouse orphanage where they're not being taken care of. Having this conversation with that kind of underlying hyperbole isn't really helpful.

I'm assuming you are referring to me. It's a point well taken...even if you did use a little hyperbole to make it .

I think what I mean to share is that when I think about upholding the proclamation and how that looks on the ground for me in my life, I have sister concerns arrise.

And one of them is the problem of older children being placed in stable home environments. I know it's not as bad as other countries, but in my work I see really awful cases. So, I tend to think about that a lot. I suppose those remarks are better saved for another discussion.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Misshalfway

[Guest]

Why not just write a letter telling the truth - that you think your kid is great and has all the personal qualities that would make a great parent, etc - but that your personal belief is that kids do better in a mother-father environment; and you would have concerns about the child's welfare in such a relationship. Not knowing the child's background, or the other placement options that are available, you respectfully submit that issue to the Court's discretion.

I might be misunderstanding the process...

But, my answer to Bini's OP is No. I won't write a character reference. I don't think I am required to. Of course, my son will understand why I am not writing the character reference. He probably already knows what I'm going to tell him, so he probably won't even bother asking me for one.

So, I don't even think I have to write a "truth" letter. It's a useless letter because, obviously, the adoption agency disagrees with me because they allow homosexual couples to adopt. So, the point is moot.

Now, job application, etc. Sure. Glowing even.

[Bini]

Thanks for chiming in everyone.

It's certainly a more complex situation than simply black or white. For me, vouching for my child does not violate or compromise what I believe, and I believe the Lord would show even more love and compassion than we can comprehend.

[Guest]

Thanks for chiming in everyone.

It's certainly a more complex situation than simply black or white. For me, vouching for my child does not violate or compromise what I believe, and I believe the Lord would show even more love and compassion than we can comprehend.

I am fairly certain that you don't mean to say that we who believe in not writing a character reference are not loving nor compassionate. I just want to put it on record so it's clear to everybody who reads this thread.

[Bini]

I am fairly certain that you don't mean to say that we who believe in not writing a character reference are not loving nor compassionate. I just want to put it on record so it's clear to everybody who reads this thread.

I mean exactly what I said. One need not read between the lines.

[classylady]

Very interesting topic. I don't know what I would do and hope I would never have this dilemma come up in my life. If such a scenario should come up I would have to pray about it. I don't even know if letters of recommendation are required for adoption, no matter what the orientation of the parents might be. I would certainly love any and all grandchildren.

I do have an experience I'd like to share. My cousin and his wife were wanting to adopt an older child. They were thinking of a teenage girl. They live on a farm in the Sacramento area of California and have six children of their own, with the older children already married and gone. They thought with all the space they had, and they were financially sound, that they had the means to give a home to a young girl. As they were looking at the different children who were available for adoption, they found a teenage girl who stated her preferences were to live where she could own a horse. Now, my cousin and his wife don't have horses, but they thought, "Well, we could get a horse. No problem there. And we can meet all her other wants/needs as well". So they proceeded with filling out the adoption papers for this girl. I don't know much about how the forms look, but I guess there is an area where you can put what religious affiliation you belong to. And they put down that they are LDS. My cousin tells me that they received notice that they were declined, with the reason being that the agency worker felt the young woman would be better off with a SS (lesbian) couple. This was at the time Proposition 8 was such a controversy in California. And my cousin feels that because they listed that they were LDS is the reason they were denied. Of course there is no real way of knowing if they were being discriminated against because of their religion. And my cousin and his wife did end up adopting a young boy and girl--siblings, within a year from that experience.

Edited August 5, 2012 by classylady

[skalenfehl]

A most fascinating and troubling topic indeed. I grew up in a difficult and dysfunctional home. It took decades to free myself emotionally and about the time I did, my wife and I realized that we would never have children of our own. After she had a full hysterectomy, we began the process of becoming foster parents. I cannot tell you how many children are in dire need of a loving home, stability, parents, etc. It really is a messed up thing.

My wife and I ended up adopting two teenage boys who were born into severely dysfunctional homes (drugs, alcohol, pornography, family members in and out of prison, etc). We were never completely able to get the "streets" out of our boys who are now full grown and on their own. They have been in and out of youth detention and jail. One is still in jail today.

These children have little to no chance of growing up emotionally stable and they also fall behind psychologically. It's a terribly unfair thing for them to know that they are not loved. They have no self esteem. My boys are in their early twenties and there is one thing that they do know. No matter what, I love them. Through all the hell that they put me and my wife through, dealing with probation officers, principals, teachers, judges, police officers at any and all hours of the day/night for years on end, they know that I love them no matter what.

Would they have had a better chance with a same sex couple than any other couple who would only take them in because they were nothing more than an extra paycheck? I don't know. I do know this--God has entrusted all of us down here on earth, a dysfunctional family of billions to carry on and help each other the best way we know how according to the light inside of us.

Knowing what I know about these children with no chance and what a cruel world it is and also having a perfect knowledge of the gospel and of God's commandments, would I support either of my boys if they were gay and wanted to adopt? I'd have to say yes. If Father in Heaven can send children to be born in the kinds of environments that my two boys were born into (one was born a crack baby), then I can support my son to raise a family if he were gay, even if I don't agree with it. The Lord no doubt makes do with what is available, even in a church still under condemnation. I suppose I can too.

[Guest]

I mean exactly what I said. One need not read between the lines.

Wait, what? You believe that my refusal to be involved in his bid to adopt a child is neither loving nor compassionate???

[skalenfehl]

This topic has troubled me since I read and replied. I spent the entire day and night pondering this. I have many good friends who are gay or lesbian and I love them. They are my brothers and sisters. I also think about a wonderful couple in church who has many children, some adopted. Their biological son, likely their oldest is very gay and never goes to church. I see him at work and he's a decent kid.

I am left to ask myself, does this mean his parents failed to be good parents? If one of my boys was gay and wanted to adopt and raise kids, would I fail in being a good parent by not supporting my son even though I don't agree with him? Furthermore, would I fail in being a good grandparent to the kids he would sooner or later adopt?? We truly live in troubling times.