Js And Other Churches

[Cal]

On a related topic---I have often found it difficult to reconcile two, what seem to be, contradictory lines of thought.

On the one had JS was quoting the Lord refering to other religions in terms like "draw near to me with their mouths", in the BoM it refers to the great and abomoniable church, and there are several other references to other churches as being of the devil etc.

But then, JS joined the Methodist church after being told by God to join none of them. JS was also quoted as saying that if he couldn't convert a person to mormonism, he would exort him to be faithful in his own, and that all churches have some truth. (now i can see the logic in that last statement)---its just that it is incongruent, on its face, with JS's own degradation of all the other religions, as described in the Bom and by his other comments.

Is this worth discussing?

[Snow]

Knowing something about this Cal, I first offer you the opportunity to correct you premise, that JS joined the Methodist Church...

[Tr2]

that JS joined the Methodist Church...

You didn't finish that sentence. Smith joined the Methodist church AFTER he received his "revelation" from God that all other churches were wrong.

[DisRuptive1]

I think he prayed after he was urged to join the church and that is when he had his first vision.

[Guest Starsky]

His mother joined it...but I don't remember Js joining it.

Disruptive...is right I think..

[Snow]

No, Disruptive is not right. Cal wants you to believe that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist Church sometime during the translation of the BoM, around 1828, 29.

Well Cal, you want to stick with your premise?

[Guest Starsky]

I remember reading or hearing the story just recently...and what I remember is that His mother joined and started working on JS to join as well...but he refused...and then I think he prayed....and received the vision..

[DisRuptive1]

I know he never actually joined any church. The whole reason he prayed was because he didn't know which church was the right one, and he wanted to choose God's true church. Hence a humble prayer got him his answer.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Mar 14 2004, 11:34 PM

I know he never actually joined any church. The whole reason he prayed was because he didn't know which church was the right one, and he wanted to choose God's true church. Hence a humble prayer got him his answer.

I agree...

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace+Mar 14 2004, 11:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Mar 14 2004, 11:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--DisRuptive1@Mar 14 2004, 11:34 PM

I know he never actually joined any church.  The whole reason he prayed was because he didn't know which church was the right one, and he wanted to choose God's true church.  Hence a humble prayer got him his answer.

I agree...

I didn't say it was during his translation of the BoM--there is a Methodist church record showing JS having joined that church sometime after the first vision (in which JS was supposedly told by the Lord to join "none of them".

Here is one reference--I'll provide another when I get a chance--Orsamus Turner, an apprentice printer in Palmyra until 1822, was in a juvenile debating club with Joseph Smith. He recalled that Joseph, "after catching a spark of Methodism . . . Joseph became a very passable exhorter in evening meetings" (History of the Pioneer Settlement of Phelps and Gorham's Purchase, 1851, p. 214)

Also----1828 June; Joseph Smith joined the Methodist church but was given an ultimatum of either withdrawing his name or standing an investigation. He withdrew his name. "We (members of the church) thought it was a disgrace to the church to have a practicing necromancer, a dealer in enchantments and bleeding ghosts, in it." (The Anboy Journal p. 1 June 11, 1879)

So the question is, "Why Did Smith try to join this church after he already received the revelation that they were all abominable? "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were and abomination in his sight, that those professors were all corrupt.... (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith--History 1:19, Page 49) Wouldn’t this be considered disobedience and even joining what he called the apostates.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 15 2004, 07:31 AM

I didn't say it was during his translation of the BoM--there is a Methodist church record showing JS having joined that church ...

Also----1828 June; Joseph Smith joined the Methodist church

Cal,

June, 1828 was during the BoM translation. True, the teacher did say there would be no dates on the quiz but still…

Let me jump to the bottom line on the 1828 reference. You are mistaken. Joseph did not join the Methodist Church. Feel free to provide whatever evidence you think supports your case, and then I will refute it. The issue is a non-starter but go ahead and try.

Regarding the 1822 reference: Is it your contention that the recollection (30 years later) of an apprentice printer that JS was a passable exhorter in evening meetings constitute reasonable evidence that JS had joined the Methodist Church? I asked, because I want to understand your standard of proof. I’ll tailor my rebuttals to that standard.

[srm]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 14 2004, 11:12 PM

His mother joined it...but I don't remember Js joining it.

Disruptive...is right I think..

Lucy, Hyrum, Samuel and sophronia joined the prebyterian church

Joseph was partial to the Methodist Church and was somewhat desireous to join it but chose not to.

Later (after the vision) Joseph attended the methodist church and his name was place on the sunday school rolls. This is the basis for the 'anti' argument that he joined another church.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by srm+Mar 15 2004, 11:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Mar 15 2004, 11:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Mar 14 2004, 11:12 PM

His mother joined it...but I don't remember Js joining it.

Disruptive...is right I think..

Lucy, Hyrum, Samuel and sophronia joined the prebyterian church

Joseph was partial to the Methodist Church and was somewhat desireous to join it but chose not to.

Later (after the vision) Joseph attended the methodist church and his name was place on the sunday school rolls. This is the basis for the 'anti' argument that he joined another church.

Good information. I remember hearing this before..

[Tr2]

I wonder why I've never heard of a mormon missionary talk about Smith's attempted involvement in the Methodist church, I guess that would really get somebody thinking about what Smith claims.

[Outshined]

Funny, the missionaries who taught my family the discussions DID tell us about it. Perhaps it depends on how many missionaries one has talked with.....

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 15 2004, 01:35 PM

I wonder why I've never heard of a mormon missionary talk about Smith's attempted involvement in the Methodist church, I guess that would really get somebody thinking about what Smith claims.

Now why would it get someone thinking? Are you aware of any of the details? Do you know anything about the reasons that JS attended the Methodist church? Can you tell us what JS thought about his attendance at the Methodist church?

That would be, probably not, no and no.

[Tr2]

Joseph Smith and the Methodists

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 15 2004, 01:35 PM

I wonder why I've never heard of a mormon missionary talk about Smith's attempted involvement in the Methodist church, I guess that would really get somebody thinking about what Smith claims.

Actually, the fact that he attended the Methodist Church once (or a few times) and was unimpressed enough to continue the "restoration" of the LDS Church says alot.

[srm]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 15 2004, 01:35 PM

I wonder why I've never heard of a mormon missionary talk about Smith's attempted involvement in the Methodist church, I guess that would really get somebody thinking about what Smith claims.

In the pamphet, Joseph Smith's Testimony" it does say that he was partial to the Methodist Church and that he felt some desire to join them.

[Outshined]

It's in Joseph Smith History:

"During this time of great excitement my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness; but though my feelings were deep and often poignant, still I kept myself aloof from all these parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit. In process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them; but so great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong."

He did not join.

But this part sounds just like today :

"My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others."

[Cal]

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 15 2004, 07:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 15 2004, 07:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Mar 14 2004, 11:39 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--DisRuptive1@Mar 14 2004, 11:34 PM

I know he never actually joined any church.  The whole reason he prayed was because he didn't know which church was the right one, and he wanted to choose God's true church.  Hence a humble prayer got him his answer.

I agree...

I didn't say it was during his translation of the BoM--there is a Methodist church record showing JS having joined that church sometime after the first vision (in which JS was supposedly told by the Lord to join "none of them".

Here is one reference--I'll provide another when I get a chance--Orsamus Turner, an apprentice printer in Palmyra until 1822, was in a juvenile debating club with Joseph Smith. He recalled that Joseph, "after catching a spark of Methodism . . . Joseph became a very passable exhorter in evening meetings" (History of the Pioneer Settlement of Phelps and Gorham's Purchase, 1851, p. 214)

Also----1828 June; Joseph Smith joined the Methodist church but was given an ultimatum of either withdrawing his name or standing an investigation. He withdrew his name. "We (members of the church) thought it was a disgrace to the church to have a practicing necromancer, a dealer in enchantments and bleeding ghosts, in it." (The Anboy Journal p. 1 June 11, 1879)

So the question is, "Why Did Smith try to join this church after he already received the revelation that they were all abominable? "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were and abomination in his sight, that those professors were all corrupt.... (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith--History 1:19, Page 49) Wouldn’t this be considered disobedience and even joining what he called the apostates.

Snow--The fact that JS was attending the Methodist church in 1828 seems even MORE strange? Whether he was actually a member or not, why would he be attending a church he "knew" to be false? Had he forgotten that he was told to join none of them? If he was so sure that these churches were such an "abomination" before God, why is he having anything to do with them? That is the issue isn't it?

Are you trying to say that these people DIDN'T witness JS attending Methodist meetings? Is that your argument? That they couldn't be relied upon to remember whether JS was amongst them or not?

[Outshined]

I have attended plenty of churches that I did not believe in.....

[Snow]

Cal,

We don't know why exactly JS attended the Methodist Church, but I do know a possible reason that is much more plausible and fits the known facts than your idea that he joined (which he didn't) the Methodist Church out of some suspicious reason - like he was lying and committing fraud.

I will tell you the reason later, right now I have to go out do the mambo with a pretty little filly from San Antone.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Outshined@Mar 16 2004, 05:39 PM

I have attended plenty of churches that I did not believe in.....

You're not JS, and had not just been told by God to join none of them. I would think that an answer to JS's question about the churches in his neigborhood might have left a stronger impression on him. JS seems to be behaving as though no such question had been answered.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 16 2004, 05:41 PM

Cal,

We don't know why exactly JS attended the Methodist Church, but I do know a possible reason that is much more plausible and fits the known facts than your idea that he joined (which he didn't) the Methodist Church out of some suspicious reason - like he was lying and committing fraud.

I will tell you the reason later, right now I have to go out do the mambo with a pretty little filly from San Antone.

Snow--No, but it is consistent with such a theory.