The Birth Of Jesus

[Traveler]

The story that we all seem to know about the birth of Jesus - how much is included in the scriptures and how much has been made up over the years? For example; was Jesus born in a stable? Did Joseph ever talk to any Inn keeper? How many Inns were there there? How old was Jesus before he was taken to Egypt? Most likely what time of year was Jesus born? Why do we have "Christmas in December?

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

As to Christ-mass (Catholic Mass) being on Dec. 25th, that was the birthday of various pagan gods including Mithras god of Light. The winter solstice was when varying pagan peoples celebrated the re-birth of the sun on its way North. Different cultures and countries all shared a similar pantheon linked to December...that was when the Queen of Heaven and her Son were born or celebrated.

Catholicism just changed their names from Fortuna and Jupiter (for example) to Mary and Jesus. In order to kill two politically opposed birds (Christianity, paganism) with one stone, both religions' gods had their birthday on the same day. Don't want to offend anyone now, do we?

Apparently Dec. 25th was "set" as Christ's birthday in the mid-4th century A.D.

Even more interesting to me was how the German name Kristkind (Christ child) became Kris Kringle (spelling varies of course).

[Traveler]

How about the story of Joseph and Mary? How old was Mary? How old was Joseph? Was Joseph married previously with children? Concerning the journey to Bethlehem – When did it take place? Did Joseph and Mary arrive in Bethlehem late in the day before the night that Jesus was born and did they travel with Mary riding on a donkey and no other possessions or provisions other than the cloths on their backs? How long did the journey to Bethlehem take?

The Traveler

[Ray]

Great questions, Traveler... do you have the answers?

If not, do you know where I can find all those answers?

From what I know, much of that is extra-biblical.

[Rosewood]

These stories are interesting to me too.

As far as I know, the no. of Inns is unkown. Modern revelation says the birth was April 6, by our modern calander

My understanding of Jesus' age going into Egypt is around 18 mos - 2 yrs old. So obviously the Wise Men weren't at the birth. Then He came back some time before he was 12 yrs old. There were quite a few Jewish settlements in Egypt in those days. All we know for sure is what the scriptures say. But there are many historical accounts of the family from letters and historians such as Josephus. The Catholic church claims a great deal more info. than we have and it's quite interesting. These things aren't considered scripture and therefore not known to be true.

It's believed Mary was living in the Temple at the time of her betrothel to Joseph and that it was there that Gabriel came to her. There was a lot of superstitious rumor etc going on at that time because people were looking for the mother of the messiah to come. They were anxious to be freed. Some say Mary lived there for protection. She was young, early teens. Some records say that Joseph was older, widowed with children. Jewish customs say that the man should be well established and able to provide before taking a wife. Both ideas lean to him being older, at least 30. Some believe he died before Jesus's ministry.

Mary's family is thought to have been well connected & in the shipping industry. Joseph of Arimathia (of the Sanhidran) was Jesus' uncle. It is believed by many that the family traveled all the way to Britian. Many ledgends are woven around this idea (and OT prophets). The church believes that the apostles at least were there and dedicated the land to the teaching of the gospel in the last days.

Check out this book "The Messiah" by Paul Thomas Smith - University of Utah Institute instructor.

Some other kind of far out stuff thats fun is "Hidden Politics of the Crucifixion" by Glenn Kimball

[Maureen]

It's believed Mary was living in the Temple at the time of her betrothel to Joseph and that it was there that Gabriel came to her...

I'm going to have to disagree with this statement:

In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, a descendant of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. The angel came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one, the Lord is with you!” (Luke 1:26-28)

The Temple was located in Jerusalem.

M.

[Ray]

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It's believed Mary was living in the Temple at the time of her betrothel to Joseph and that it was there that Gabriel came to her...

I'm going to have to disagree with this statement:

In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, a descendant of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. The angel came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one, the Lord is with you!” (Luke 1:26-28)

The Temple was located in Jerusalem.

M.

Are you saying you don't believe there is any way to reconcile those two stories?

[Rosewood]

Maureen, good eye! I went back to check my sources, and the book I read was quoting an "early Christian writing called the Gospel of Bartholomew (?)indicates that Mary may have known of her pending motherhood much earlier while serving in the Temple at Jerusalem; 'When I was in the Temple of God there appeared to me one day an angel. Suddenly the veil of the temple was rent fell on my face unable to bear the sight of him, but he stretched forth his hand and said to me, Greetings thou chosen vessel, in 3 yrs time you will bear a son and through him all creation will be saved. And suddenly he was gone from me, and the temple was as it was before"

The reason she may have been living in the temple was being of the house of David and a virgin, she was there for protection. What I have read says that wasn't all that uncommon. Again, I don't know.

Then the author adds a warning about apocryphal stories for many reasons. One problem was women inside the temple near the veil

I don't believe every thing I read like this. Its just fun to speculate.

[Maureen]

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It's believed Mary was living in the Temple at the time of her betrothel to Joseph and that it was there that Gabriel came to her...

I'm going to have to disagree with this statement:

In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, a descendant of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. The angel came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one, the Lord is with you!” (Luke 1:26-28)

The Temple was located in Jerusalem.

M.

Are you saying you don't believe there is any way to reconcile those two stories?

Can you Ray?

M.

[CrimsonKairos]

Jewish customs say that the man should be well established and able to provide before taking a wife. Both ideas lean to him being older, at least 30.

Have to disagree with you here (or your sources anyway). According to Alfred Edersheim, in his book "The Temple: Its Ministry and Services As They Were at the Time of Jesus Christ," the Jewish custom at the time was for men to marry at sixteen or seventeen years of age, almost never later than twenty; women married much younger, often not older than fourteen.

The idea of Joseph being older and a widower was invented because the Bible says Joseph and Mary had children other than Jesus, and Mary had to be a virgin to be the mother of God (so say some ancient religious insitutions, ahem...), so Joseph must have had children with a previous wife because heaven forbid that he and Mary had children and that she wasn't a life long virgin! Gasp!

I think it's silly to assume Joseph was older than sixteen or twenty.

[Ray]

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It's believed Mary was living in the Temple at the time of her betrothel to Joseph and that it was there that Gabriel came to her...

I'm going to have to disagree with this statement:

In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, a descendant of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. The angel came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one, the Lord is with you!” (Luke 1:26-28)

The Temple was located in Jerusalem.

M.

Are you saying you don't believe there is any way to reconcile those two stories?

Can you Ray?

M.

Sure, piece of cake.

In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, a descendant of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary.

And it was during this time that Gabriel, having been sent by God to comfort and watch over Mary, and more particularly, during the time that Mary went to Jerusalem to live in the temple for a while, that…

The angel came to her (to where she could see him) and said, “Greetings, favored one, the Lord is with you!”…

… and told her a few other things, after which He disappeared from her sight while continuing to stay with her to comfort her and watch over her, as her “invisible” guardian angel.

Of course, that may not be the way it really happened, but at least it is possible to reconcile the two accounts. :)

[Maureen]

Sure, piece of cake.

In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, a descendant of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary.

And it was during this time that Gabriel, having been sent by God to comfort and watch over Mary, and more particularly, during the time that Mary went to Jerusalem to live in the temple for a while, that…

But this is what is says in Luke:

In those days Mary got up and went hurriedly into the hill country, to a town of Judah, and entered Zechariah’s house and greeted Elizabeth. (Luke 1:39-40)

So if after the angel visited her she went directly to Judah to visit Elizabeth, she couldn't have gone to Jerusalem. And since Elizabeth still had 3 months to go, chances are she would have stayed there until John was born (possibly helped with the birth).

Of course, that may not be the way it really happened, but at least it is possible to reconcile the two accounts. :)

Not really, if one account says she was at Nazareth and then went to Judah, there's a logical conclusion to say she didn't go to Jerusalem during those 3 months, especially when the angel first approached her.

M.

[Traveler]

First I would point out that there is very little in the Biblical scriptures concerning the birth of Jesus. There are 3 verses in Luke that describe the journey from Nazareth to Bethlehem and the birth of Jesus. Interestingly there are 8 verses in Luke that describe the angels appearing to the shepherds. It would seem that whenever the saga is told outside of the scriptures tradition has embellish the journey the Bethlehem the search for a place to stay and the setting of his birth among animals – none of which is in Biblical scripture. I may comment later about my theory as to why there are 8 verses describing the angles appearing to the shepherds. If there are any theories as to why the shepherd story carries such great weight compared to other things I would be most interested.

One reason I point out the addition to Biblical scripture is because of criticism directed towards the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints for “adding” to sacred Biblical scripture. I find this criticism most interesting in conjunction with what Christian tradition has done concerning the birth of Jesus; and yet I have never heard a word of criticism or thought concerning the embellishments of the infant birth.

On to other things. Among the ancient writings not included in Biblical scriptures is the Gospel of James (the lesser, cousin and brother of the L-rd Jesus, chief Apostle and first Bishop of the Christians in Jerusalem – according to most scholars.) or what is called the Protevangelion. This text tells of the miracle birth of Mary to the aged Anna and the one angel followed by two angels that came to Anna to explain the importance of her child. Mary is taken to the temple after her birth and is cared there and protected by angles until she is 12 years old. An angel comes to Zacharias (the high priest) and commands him to gather widowers among the people and a sign would be given for the husband of Mary. Now quoting from verses 12 &13 of chapter 8: “And the high-priest said, Joseph, Thou art the person chosen to take the Virgin of the L-rd, to keep her for him: But Joseph refused, saying, I am an old man, and have children, but she is young, and I fear least I should appear ridiculous in Israel.”

I will not say that this account is accurate or not – but it is believed to have been written no later than the second century of the Christian era and is referenced and kept by most of the Church Fathers of that era.

This account of James also tells of the donkey upon which Mary road to Bethlehem and that Jesus was born in a cave. It also tells us that the “wise men” visited Jesus at the cave. The account ends with Joseph and Mary fleeing to Egypt with Jesus and Elisabeth fleeing to the mountains with John. Verse 16 chapter 16: “However, Zacharias was murdered in the entrance of the temple and alter, and about the partition;” In previous verses Herod send his servants to kill Zacharias for hiding his son.

The Traveler

[Guest Monica]

Christmas Story:

Luk 2:1 ¶ And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. 2 ([And] this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) 3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. 4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:) 5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. 6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. 7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. 8 ¶ And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. 12 And this [shall be] a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. 15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us. 16 And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.

Mat 2:1 ¶ Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, 2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. 3 When Herod the king had heard [these things], he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. 5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, [in] the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. 7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found [him], bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also. 9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. 11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. 12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way. 13 ¶ And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. 14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: 15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

[Ray]

... if after the angel visited her she went directly to Judah to visit Elizabeth, she couldn't have gone to Jerusalem. And since Elizabeth still had 3 months to go, chances are she would have stayed there until John was born (possibly helped with the birth).

Are you saying you don't believe there is any way to reconcile those two stories, now?

... come on, now. Do I need to go through this again?

Why couldn't Mary have lived in the temple in Jerusalem until she left to go to live with Elizabeth?

Are you saying it's not possible that Elizabeth could have lived in another city that was in Judah, or Judeah?

...if one account says she was at Nazareth and then went to Judah, there's a logical conclusion to say she didn't go to Jerusalem during those 3 months, especially when the angel first approached her.

The account says that Mary went to a city in Judah, or Judeah... not that she did not go to Jerusalem.

And btw, I'm not trying to convince you that these things are the truth, I'm just saying there are other possibilities... than the ideas you believe to be true.

And if you believe it is really not possible, just understand that I will not agree.

Many things you believe I simply disagree with while knowing they are in fact possible.

[Maureen]

Why couldn't Mary have lived in the temple in Jerusalem until she left to go to live with Elizabeth?

Well for one thing, why would Mary even live in the Temple? With a little research, my understanding is that the basic lay-person would visit Jerusalem for Passover or other festivals during the year, but women were not required to come to any feasts or festivals, and the Mishnah says:

"The observance of all the positive ordinances that depend on the time of year is incumbent on men but not on women…"

In the Temple proper the females occupied, according to Jewish tradition, only a raised gallery along three sides of the court. They were allowed to observe the ceremonies but never to participate in them.

http://www.bible-history.com/court-of-women/women.html

So Ray, explain to me why Mary would have lived in the Temple in Jerusalem, what would have been her purpose for being there?

M.

[Ray]

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Why couldn't Mary have lived in the temple in Jerusalem until she left to go to live with Elizabeth?

Well for one thing, why would Mary even live in the Temple? With a little research, my understanding is that the basic lay-person would visit Jerusalem for Passover or other festivals during the year, but women were not required to come to any feasts or festivals, and the Mishnah says:

"The observance of all the positive ordinances that depend on the time of year is incumbent on men but not on women…"

In the Temple proper the females occupied, according to Jewish tradition, only a raised gallery along three sides of the court. They were allowed to observe the ceremonies but never to participate in them.

http://www.bible-history.com/court-of-women/women.html

So Ray, explain to me why Mary would have lived in the Temple in Jerusalem, what would have been her purpose for being there?

M.

Just because she didn't have to go doesn't mean she didn't want to go.

Nazareth was a very small town.

... and I've heard it wasn't very exciting.

Maybe she just wanted to go...

... because she liked going to the temple...

... or because she liked to go to feasts and festivals...

... or because there were better stores for her to shop at...

... or because she liked the 'City of David'.

Have you ever lived in a very small town?

Can you imagine how she felt at the temple?

Try to open your eyes to all the possibilities.

... and btw...

... I'm not trying to make you believe anything.

:)

[Maureen]

Just because she didn't have to go doesn't mean she didn't want to go.

You like these dipsy-doodles, don't you Ray. My question is why would she live in the Temple at Jerusalem? Remember you said:

Why couldn't Mary have lived in the temple in Jerusalem until she left to go to live with Elizabeth?

I'm trying to see the big logical picture Ray. If Jewish custom made it not important for women to attend feasts and festivals, what kind of Jewish custom existed at that time that would make it possible for women to live in the Temple.

Try to open your eyes to all the possibilities.

All the possibilities related to Jewish customs at that time. I'm still curious about your answer to why women would live in the Temple, Ray?

M.

[Ray]

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Just because she didn't have to go doesn't mean she didn't want to go.

You like these dipsy-doodles, don't you Ray.

Heh, dipsy-doodles? :) That sounds nifty. What are those, pray tell?

I do like to clarify what I am talking about. Is that what you are calling "dispy-doodles"?

My question is why would she live in the Temple at Jerusalem? Remember you said:

Why couldn't Mary have lived in the temple in Jerusalem until she left to go to live with Elizabeth?

I'm trying to see the big logical picture Ray. If Jewish custom made it not important for women to attend feasts and festivals, what kind of Jewish custom existed at that time that would make it possible for women to live in the Temple.

The fact that Jewish custom did not require women to attend all the feasts and festivals doesn't mean it wasn't customary to allow women to live in the temple, on occasions, whatever those occasions may have been.

But I'm not saying they did. I'm just saying it is possible.

What are your reasons for believing that was not possible?

I hope you understand my question this time.

[CrimsonKairos]

Maureen's point is quite sound and well taken.

The temple was a place for priests to live, sacrifice and sell animals for sacrifices (refer to Christ scourging the temple, an act which embittered the Sadducees against him as it was their "right" to sell animals for sacrifices and hence gain graft and line their pockets).

Women could not participate in the temple sacrifices. Maureen's question (if I understand it) is why would the priestly inhabitants of the temple allow a woman to live in their holiest place of worship when the women couldn't even assist with the sacrifices or participate/help in any way?

The temple was not a hostel or inn. It was the House of God, sanctified and separated for uncommon use. True, there was a porch called the "Women's Porch or Court" where women could congregate and visit. It was here that Jesus did most of his teaching in the temple during his ministry.

What possible Jewish custom, law or exigency would require or even permit a woman to live in the temple?

[Ray]

The temple was a place for priests to live, sacrifice and sell animals for sacrifices.

Yes, I know it was supposed to be a place for all that, but who is to say more wasn't done at one time?

You seem to be limiting the possibilities.

Women could not participate in the temple sacrifices.

What do you mean by that?

A lot of those sacrifices were given back to be eaten by the people who had come to worship there... and they were eaten by women as well as the men. I know they didn't offer them, but they participated.

And at least most priests who lived in the temple were married, and they lived there with their children, on occasion, so who is to say Mary's father wasn't a priest in the temple and that Mary didn't live there with him?

Maureen's question (if I understand it) is why would the priestly inhabitants of the temple allow a woman to live in their holiest place of worship when the women couldn't even assist with the sacrifices or participate/help in any way?

Or in other words, why would women be allowed to live in the temple? Right?

I get the question. My answer is to ask why it isn't possible.

I just gave you some reasons for how it is possible, and who is to say there isn't more I'm not thinking of.

The temple was not a hostel or inn. It was the House of God, sanctified and separated for uncommon use. True, there was a porch called the "Women's Porch or Court" where women could congregate and visit. It was here that Jesus did most of his teaching in the temple during his ministry.

Yes, the temple is supposed to be a place where only certain things are done, with all things in harmony with God's will, but who is to say that all they ever did was only what God wanted them to do?

And who here will say they definitely didn't have a custom that allowed women to live in the temple, on occasion?

I'm not saying they did. I'm just saying that it's possible, either with or without an official custom.

And I think Maureen is saying that she doesn't think so.

[CrimsonKairos]

Okay Ray, nearly everything is possible. Fine. Agreed.

My point is not what is possible, but what is probable.

Based on Jewish custom, priestly practices, sacrficial protocols and the legal/social status of women in Jewish society, it is more unlikely than likely that a woman--even Mary--lived in Herod's Temple.

[Ray]

Based on Jewish custom, priestly practices, sacrficial protocols and the legal/social status of women in Jewish society, it is more unlikely than likely that a woman--even Mary--lived in Herod's Temple.

Okay, that's what you think. I can see you think that. But how did you compute the possibilities?

Was Mary's father a priest? Did he serve in the temple? Did Mary have the opportunity to live with him? How old was Mary when Gabriel came to her? What would it mean to say she lived in the temple?

How do you compute whether or not it was probable until you know what you are dealing with, Crimson?

And that's just some of the possibilities. There may be others I'm not thinking of now.

At this point I am open to all of the possibilities. At this point I won't make a decision.

I know what I know by an assurance from God. Until then I try to see what is possible.

[Maureen]

Was Mary's father a priest? Did he serve in the temple?

No, Mary and her father were descended from the tribe of Judah, only Levites could be priests.

M.

[Traveler]

Okay Ray, nearly everything is possible. Fine. Agreed.

My point is not what is possible, but what is probable.

Based on Jewish custom, priestly practices, sacrficial protocols and the legal/social status of women in Jewish society, it is more unlikely than likely that a woman--even Mary--lived in Herod's Temple.

Not according to the gospel of James. Agreed this is not Biblical scripture but is part of the landscape of the first 100 years of Christianity. There are some scholars that believe the terminology is misunderstood and that Mary may have been kept at Qumran as a temple in exile based on the copper scroll.

The Traveler

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Was Mary's father a priest? Did he serve in the temple?

No, Mary and her father were descended from the tribe of Judah, only Levites could be priests.

M.

According to the Jospel of James Zacharias was the high priest at the temple.

The Traveler