Who is Babylon the Great?

[marcostolto]

Rev 17:5 mentions "Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots", and Rev 18:4 says "come out of her (Babylon the Great), my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues". how do Mormons interpret this scripture. Is this a reference exclusively to the Roman Catholic Church or to all other Christian religions, or is it a reference to non-Christians, or to all other religions ?

[Guest]

Oprah.

[skalenfehl]

Babylon the great is the church of the devil. There are only two churches: the church of the Firstborn and the church of the devil, aka Babylon. All who fight against the Lord are of Babylon. Nephi expounds on this a bit more. He saw what John the revelator saw, but was forbidden to write those things because it was John's calling to write them all. It is not referencing the Catholic church or other churches exclusively. This idea probably came from Bruce R. McConkie.

[marcostolto]

"Church of the Firstborn?" is this the Church of the LDS's?

"Church of the Devil"? are these the literal Satanic worshiping churches?

"all those who fight against the Lord"? who are these? those who do not accept the Bible as Gods word, those who do not accept Jesus as Messiah, or those who do not accept the Book of Mormon as Gods word? excuse my ignorance, however, if its the former, then are for example, the Orthodox Jews & Muslims who do not accept the New testament and Jesus Christ as Messiah, part of Babylon? if the latter, then all religions exept LDS must form part of Babylon?

as a former Jehovahs Witness this question is quite important to me, because when i was ex-communicated from the JW church it was for rejecting the JW religion as the only true religion, so it would seem reasonable to me that the LDS explanation of Babylon the Great, should refer to all those who reject the Book of Mormon, as Gods word

Edited August 31, 2012 by marcostolto

[Guest]

"Church of the Firstborn?" is this the Church of the LDS's?

"Church of the Devil"? are these the literal Satanic worshiping churches?

"all those who fight against the Lord"? who are these? those who do not accept the Bible as Gods word, those who do not accept Jesus as Messiah, or those who do not accept the Book of Mormon as Gods word? excuse my ignorance, however, if its the former, then are for example, the Orthodox Jews & Muslims who do not accept the New testament and Jesus Christ as Messiah, part of Babylon? if the latter, then all religions exept LDS must form part of Babylon?

as a former Jehovahs Witness this question is quite important to me, because when i was ex-communicated from the JW church it was for rejecting the JW religion as the only true religion, so it would seem reasonable to me that the LDS explanation of Babylon the Great, should refer to all those who reject the Book of Mormon, as Gods word

The church of the firstborn and the church of the devil is a church with a lowercase c... not a capital letter C. This indicates that these do not reference any specific religious denomination. Rather, it merely points to each person's loyalty - the church of the firstborn (Zion) are those loyal to righteousness and the church of the devil (Babylon) are those loyal to wickedness. Righteousness and wickedness can be determined by the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is quite possible to be a member of the LDS Church and still be loyal to wickedness if one has no intention of fully embracing the teachings of Christ just as it is possible to not be a member of the LDS Church in mortality but be loyal to righteousness in one's humble and sincere desire to follow one's conscience (the light of Christ).

Edited August 31, 2012 by anatess

[marcostolto]

why would anyone join LDS if they did not believe that it was the only true religion? the term "wickedness" that you have mentioned, is relative. and open to interpretation. wickedness could mean the LDS church, to a person who considers LDS as part of Babylon the great. as a former Jehovahs Witness and someone who has also dabbled in the occult, and had open discussions with Satanic members, i am well aware of what physical actions the bible considers to be wicked, however from a religious viewpoint, a churches teschings and doctrins may also be held to be wicked, even though they may not necessarily involve evil physical actions such as animal or child sacrifices

[ReshAyinHeh]

Babylon is the physical body burning on the funeral pyre, 18: 16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

The fresh unclean spirits whose happiness was body based, suffering after being cut off from the comforting breath etc: 9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

[marcostolto]

that seems to be a fitting description of the Roman Catholic church. many Christian denominations believe that this is the "women" spoken of in Revelation. certainly Christianity was not the original religion of the Roman empire, else they would not have been worshiping pagan gods. this also seems to be the view of Mr McConkie, although i would have to question as to how many Christian denominations he could name that accept the Book of Mormon as Gods word. very few, in fact, in my opinion, LDS and Jehovahs Witnesses are two of the most disliked Christian denominations, that exist, both commonly being referred to as cults. not a viewpoint that i share, at least not for LDS

[skalenfehl]

Nephi was the first recorded prophet in the Book of Mormon who with his father and family escaped Jerusalem prior to its capture of Babylon approx. 600 BC. They were led out of the old world, thereafter lost to Israel.

Nephi writes in 1 Nephi 14:

8 And it came to pass that when the angel had spoken these words, he said unto me: Rememberest thou the covenants of the Father unto the house of Israel? I said unto him, Yea.

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

Pertaining to your question about a true religion, in the Bible, Jesus Christ clearly explains that one cannot inherit the kingdom of God without first being reborn (baptism of water and fire, aka Holy Ghost). This is the crux of our message and our mission--that one must be ordained by one having authority to give the authority to act in God's name. In other words, without this priesthood authority, such ordinances as baptism are not valid. Christ called twelve apostles and gave them authority to baptize, to heal, etc. This priesthood authority is found exclusively in Christ's church, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the same organization that Jesus Chirst established during His mortal ministry, calling apostles, prophets, evangelists, etc, Himself being the chief cornerstone. This does not mean that all members who are baptized therein keep and honor their baptismal covenants, and therefore do not necessarily qualify for membership in the church of the lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

Edited August 31, 2012 by skalenfehl
typos

[Guest]

why would anyone join LDS if they did not believe that it was the only true religion? the term "wickedness" that you have mentioned, is relative. and open to interpretation. wickedness could mean the LDS church, to a person who considers LDS as part of Babylon the great. as a former Jehovahs Witness and someone who has also dabbled in the occult, and had open discussions with Satanic members, i am well aware of what physical actions the bible considers to be wicked, however from a religious viewpoint, a churches teschings and doctrins may also be held to be wicked, even though they may not necessarily involve evil physical actions such as animal or child sacrifices

If you don't have a strong testimony that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church of Jesus Christ then you shouldn't join the Church.

But the particular bible verses you refer to, like I said, is not limited to a specific Church. The bible verse divides mankind into two black and white sides - righteous and wicked - according to the content of one's heart, not the religious denomination one is affiliated with.

Each and every Church contains a sliver of truth. According to the LDS Church, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. When a Jehovah's Witness declares that Jesus is the Son of God, it doesn't become false.

But I personally believe that the LDS Church contains the most complete truth of God's plan for our salvation.

[applepansy]

Oprah.

I needed the laugh button.

[marcostolto]

skalenfehl, thank you for quoting this scripture. i speak as a newly interested person, not yet baptised.

[br]

[strong]"I beheld that the church of the Lamb, ...their dominions upon the face of the earth were small"[/strong]

[br]

clearly the church of the Lamb here refers to the LDS Church, as their "dominions were small"

[br]

[strong]"great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God"[/strong]

[br]

further it mentions that "the mother of abominations did gather together multitudes to fight against the Lamb of God", clearly these would be enemies not only of the Lamb of God, namely, Jesus Christ, but also of the Church of the Lamb, that is they would need to be enemies of the LDS Church

[br]

[strong]"wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations;and she is the whore of all the earth."[/strong]

[br]

obviously then Babylon the Great, the "mother of abominations" mentioned here, does not refer exclusively to The Roman Catholic Church, as indicated by Mr Mc Conkie, nor could it refer exclusively to any other church, as it must refer to "whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb", that must be anyone who has not been baptised as a Mormon, which would encompass individuals every religion

[br]

this makes sense, thank you

[Blackmarch]

Rev 17:5 mentions "Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots", and Rev 18:4 says "come out of her (Babylon the Great), my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues". how do Mormons interpret this scripture. Is this a reference exclusively to the Roman Catholic Church or to all other Christian religions, or is it a reference to non-Christians, or to all other religions ?

Babylon basically indicates all those that fight against God and Christ and his work or seeks to hinder it (sometimes knowingly, sometimes unkowingly). This is not limited to just one organization.

[marcostolto]

for those such as myself, registered on lds.net, who have parents and relatives who are Catholic, the following exerpt from the article entitled "the great and abominable church", on wikipedia, may shed some light

"A book entitled Mormon Doctrine, originally published in 1958 by Bruce R. McConkie,

contains references linking the Roman Catholic Church to the Whore of Babylon. McConkie

became an apostle twelve years after its publication, and was a respected

scholar[clarification needed] and authority regarding the doctrines and beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is said that some leaders in the LDS Church at the time urged McConkie not to identify the Roman Catholic Church as such, but the initial publications went out unchanged as McConkie intended.[citation needed] A later edition published in 1966 removed the reference."

for those lds.net members who consider this article innacurate, may i ask that you endeavour to make the necessary changes, via wikipedia

[marcostolto]

i have not verified the authenticity of this exerpt, however it seems to indicate that Joseph Smith did not consider the title of "Babylon the Great" to apply exclusively to the Catholic church, rather to all sects and churches apart from the LDS

Joseph Smith History 1:18-20:

"My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join."

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them;..."

[marcostolto]

however 1 Nephi 13:5 says :

"And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a 'church which is most abominable above all other churches'"

so it is clear that the Book of Mormon is here making a comparison between one church /religion and all the other religions, and is stating that this one church/religion is "more abominable" than all the others. it is not saying that all the others are acceptable, it is saying that the others are also abominable, but it is saying that this specific church/religion, is more abominable than all the others.

[marcostolto]

for those interested, i have posted a simular question at forums.catholic.com

Do Mormons Consider Catholics to be the "Church of the Devil"? - Catholic Answers Forums

[Guest]

for those interested, i have posted a simular question at forums.catholic.com

Do Mormons Consider Catholics to be the "Church of the Devil"? - Catholic Answers Forums

You just opened another open invitation for the "Attack the Mormons" crusade. You're not going to get valid answers there. Well maybe if... if I remember correctly, Diana is her name... chimes in.

[Guest]

Babylon the Great is mammon. The world.

[Vort]

for those such as myself, registered on lds.net, who have parents and relatives who are Catholic, the following exerpt from the article entitled "the great and abominable church", on wikipedia, may shed some light

"A book entitled Mormon Doctrine, originally published in 1958 by Bruce R. McConkie,

contains references linking the Roman Catholic Church to the Whore of Babylon. McConkie

became an apostle twelve years after its publication, and was a respected

scholar[clarification needed] and authority regarding the doctrines and beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is said that some leaders in the LDS Church at the time urged McConkie not to identify the Roman Catholic Church as such, but the initial publications went out unchanged as McConkie intended.[citation needed] A later edition published in 1966 removed the reference."

for those lds.net members who consider this article innacurate, may i ask that you endeavour to make the necessary changes, via wikipedia

I believe it is correct that Elder McConkie's first edition of Mormon Doctrine identified Nephi's "great and abominable church" and "whore of all the earth" with the Roman Catholic Church. This was not an uncommon belief among Latter-day Saints when I was a child. In fact, when I was called on a mission to Italy in 1982, several people affirmed this belief and talked about how I was going into "the belly of the beast" and such.

But it was never an accepted teaching of the LDS Church. If Elder McConkie and some other leaders (and members) believed this, many others did not. It is noteworthy that the second edition of his book omitted this idea completely. I have not even heard this idea taught or openly discussed since the 1980s. There is certainly no Church doctrine to back up this belief. On the contrary, as you point out, it is unlikely that Joseph Smith equated the "great and abominable church" with Roman Catholicism.

For those who don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, the identification with the Roman Catholic Church doesn't even make sense, since the Catholics never gave Joseph Smith a hard time. It was all the Protestant sects and offshoots that hated him and treated him so badly.

[Guest]

i have not verified the authenticity of this exerpt, however it seems to indicate that Joseph Smith did not consider the title of "Babylon the Great" to apply exclusively to the Catholic church, rather to all sects and churches apart from the LDS

Joseph Smith History 1:18-20:

"My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join."

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them;..."

This is authentic. JSH is part of LDS Scripture.

Although, this particular passage does not have a correlation with the Babylon of Revelations.

You seem to be intent on assigning specific Churches to be the great and abominable church. We have repeatedly explained to you that Babylon The Great is not a specific denomination. It is a state of being. Let me repeat - you can be a member of the LDS church by affiliation and still be part of the abominable church if in your heart you are not of Christ.

[marcostolto]

yes, however, 1 Nephi 13:5 clearly singles out one particular church/religion as being more reprehensible than all the other reprehensible churches/religions. many Protestant denominations interpret this church to be the Catholic church, siting Revelation, Armageddon, the Rome Empire, and reasons such as the Inquisition and the stifling of Bible publication by they RC church, that occured during the Reformation time period

[Vort]

yes, however, 1 Nephi 13:5 clearly singles out one particular church/religion as being more reprehensible than all the other reprehensible churches/religions. many Protestant denominations interpret this church to be the Catholic church, siting Revelation, Armageddon, the Rome Empire, and reasons such as the Inquisition and the stifling of Bible publication by they RC church, that occured during the Reformation time period

I hardly see how any Protestant denomination has either the authority or the background to determine what LDS scripture means.

[marcostolto]

for what reason would Nephi have mentioned this, if it was not important. clearly if this particular church/religion is more abominable than all the others. no person would ever want to be a member of it, nor would they want their relatives to be a part of it. so naturally anyone, such as myself, contemplating conversion to the LDS church, would want to know. who is this church/religion?

there is no sidestepping this question. either the answer exists, or the interpretation has not yet been revealed..i wish i could pose this question to Pres von Stetton. i spoke with him over the phone the other day. wish i knew where he was. i would go there personally to ask him. does anyone perhaps have his electronic mail address? i have emailed sisters Stark & Olfon at the Durban,ZA missionary office, but am no longer receiving replies from them. i have a feeling that they have had enough of my continual phoning, leaving messages, and asking questions. the only thing everyone keeps telling me is that i need to go to the meetings in order to discuss my concerns with Bishop Scott

Edited September 6, 2012 by marcostolto

[Guest]

for what reason would Nephi have mentioned this, if it was not important. clearly if this particular church/religion is more abominable than all the others. no person would ever want to be a member of it, nor would they want their relatives to be a part of it. so naturally anyone, such as myself, contemplating conversion to the LDS church, would want to know. who is this church/religion?

there is no sidestepping this question. either the answer exists, or the interpretation has not yet been revealed..i wish i could pose this question to Pres von Stetton. i spoke with him over the phone the other day. wish i knew where he was. i would go there personally to ask him. does anyone perhaps have his electronic mail address? i have emailed sisters Stark & Olfon at the Durban,ZA missionary office, but am no longer receiving replies from them. i have a feeling that they have had enough of my continual phoning, leaving messages, and asking questions. the only thing everyone keeps telling me is that i need to go to the meetings in order to discuss my concerns with Bishop Scott

Marco, this is getting frustrating. I am a Mormon. You would think you'll believe it when I say it - THE ABOMINABLE CHURCH does not refer to ANY SPECIFIC DENOMINATION. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

Okay, since you want to know about 1 Nephi 13:5... TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING.

This is 1 Nephi 13:5 -

And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

Okay - that passage is a Vision. A symbolism. Much similar to John's Visions that created The Book of Revelations.

Now, the church that I bolded there is in direct reference to 2 Nephi 10:16 which states -

Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

THAT's the abominable church. Like I've been telling you for the past oh so many posts...

Okay, if that is not clear enough for you, I don't know what would be. I guess you can just go ahead and believe what you want to believe. There's no point in telling you what we believe.