Traveler Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 Jesus has always been and will always be God. However, Philippians 2 tells us that he gave up his power as God, and made himself a little lower than the angels. So, he never lost his eternal identities, but while he walked the earth, he was truly man. I can see in Philippians 2 that Jesus took upon the role of servant but I do not see where he gave up any power. (BTW it also says that it is "not robbery to be equal with G-d" - which is a rather interesting thought I had not noticed before). I also see where he was "made in the likeness of men" but I do not see where he was made the same as man. Can you be a little more specific?The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 Hey PC, This is an interesting piece of this discussion. When you talk about the “emptying” of himself in Phil 2 there is a danger of subscribing to the heresy of Kenosis. I've looked into this a little and some authors render this as only limiting the outward expression of Jesus' divinity not giving up any divine characteristics. I have a major problem with this whole issue. I would love to have a conversation about it with you sometime. Dr. T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Keep going, Ray. I'm adding another charge for evading arrestI'm standing right here in front of you, Doc.How exactly am I evading arrest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 You left for a minute. OK, resisting arrest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Heh, No, I didn't. You were the one who left.I've been standing right here for quite a while now.Are you okay? Are you tired, or something? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 I am tired sir. Have been a lot recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosie321 Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 As for the atonement, it had to be Jesus, because God chose to use his one and only Son to accomplish it. Christ chose this path.There is a problem in talking about Jesus Christ taking upon the flesh. First is that many define man as a creature of flesh, I would also point out that the scriptures indicate that there is distinction and difference in G-d the Father, G-d the Son and G-d the Holy Ghost. It is the will of the Father that man know, distinguish, worship and recognize that there is one that is G-d the Father, another that is G-d the Son and a third that is G-d the Holy Ghost that are united in one covenant. And that it is also the will of G-d the Father that all man become invested and one with them in the same covenant. Amen.Therefore they do not understand that man has a divine nature and is a child of G-d but that man is separated from G-d as a fallen creature. Jesus was not a fallen creature but maintained all that is divine - even in the flesh Jesus is divine - proving that the flesh can be divine and have divine nature. Jesus was not all man because Jesus was not fallen dispite what some teach (which is not taught in the scriptures). Jesus had only one nature (even in the flesh) and that was a divine nature. But he could feel pain, suffer and die - but even with such in his nature he was still divine. Agreed. Although innocent, he took upon himself everyones sins. Which made him "dirty" and punishable. It was so bad that Heavenly Father turned His back. But when I look at it as God being only one "person", it really changes the story. Here you have God who created people, came up with a bunch of rules, then comes down to in a sense just show of his power. He was never really at risk, never really gave up everything for everything.Jesus has always been and will always be God. However, Philippians 2 tells us that he gave up his power as God, and made himself a little lower than the angels. So, he never lost his eternal identities, but while he walked the earth, he was truly man. But was he truly man if he was still running everything and performing Gods duties? If all his powers were intact as God. I believe that though he sinned not and remained faithful to the Will of God that he did relinquish or his powers were veiled. The fact that he struggled like us, who also cannot see our eternal destinies and that he learned and grew along the way just like you and me is more aweing then the other view of God morphing himself into a mortal being. It sounds way to weird and complicated. I believe our world is in the pattern of the eternal. That we can understand the patterns of heaven by looking at our world. If God is this blob floating out there morphing himself into different things it makes it a harder God to every understand or really know. Then in my mind why are we encouraged to ask and then we shall recieve, knock and it shall be opened? Also "this is eternal life to know God the Father and His Son Christ whom he hath sent." So many things point to me the reality that they are 3 seperate entities joined together in one.Also once again if Jesus was God. And the only ONE God. (Not 3 seperate) He took on mortality and all the sins of the world (which goes against the basic fundamental of God himself) then who was watching the world? Who was answering peoples prayers? Normal, mortal people cannot do this. Therefore he is not as many people would say is a God who knows me and has been in my shoes. Looking at the LDS structure and understanding of Oneness though the answers to these questions make complete sense.As for the atonement, it had to be Jesus, because God chose to use his one and only Son to accomplish it. God couldn't do it HImself. It wasn't HIs mission. We believe there is only one God because that's what the schema says: Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Deuteronomy 6:4 As we should be with one anothers-most noteably our spouses. Do you believe in a literal ressurection? That He took up His physical body?Yes. When one believes in the Godhead -3-in-1 aspect of God it makes it all the more meaningful and powerful. Christ really gave up all while God helplessly watched for the good of all. WOW Seeing such a powerful act of love as seen from the view point of 3 seperate makes me really want sign me up to do the will of God rather then seeing it from 3 in one wondering what kind of delusional entitity I might be following. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 I am tired sir. Have been a lot recently.Then take 3 aspirins and call me in the morning.A good nights rest will fix you right up. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Oh yeah, my arm hurts when I do this (waving arm back and forth). Dr. T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Oh yeah, my arm hurts when I do this (waving arm back and forth).Dr. TThen don't do that, Doc. Sheesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Right answer Ray! You are good. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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