"inherit all"

[mikbone]

The ladder (path) is there before us. It has been well defined. But you have to climb it. Neither Christ nor Our Father can climb it for us. Elohim could not spare Christ from the cross although Christ petitioned him three times to do so.

Do Celestial beings share anything with God? Yes of course. We are his offspring. He created us, thus our triumphs and shortcomings are his as well. But this does not necessairly does not mean that we can claim his accomplishments as our own.

Shared experiences. It is a strange concept.

Do you have children? If you do, you have had an experience that is special. There are years of joy, happiness, sleepless nights, sorrow, etc...

Can a single person without children understand what it is like to be a parent?

Does being an Uncle give the same expereinces as being a father, if the father and his brother discuss the sleepless nights and trials?

Does watching an Olympic Marathon prepare you for breaking a world record in the 26 mile race?

I love watching superhero movies. I still cannot fly, move objects with my mind, or punch through walls.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The ladder (path) is there before us. It has been well defined. But you have to climb it. Neither Christ nor Our Father can climb it for us. Elohim could not spare Christ from the cross although Christ petitioned him three times to do so.

Do Celestial beings share anything with God? Yes of course. We are his offspring. He created us, thus our triumphs and shortcomings are his as well. But this does not necessairly does not mean that we can claim his accomplishments as our own.

Shared experiences. It is a strange concept.

Do you have children? If you do, you have had an experience that is special. There are years of joy, happiness, sleepless nights, sorrow, etc...

Can a single person without children understand what it is like to be a parent?

Does being an Uncle give the same expereinces as being a father, if the father and his brother discuss the sleepless nights and trials?

Does watching an Olympic Marathon prepare you for breaking a world record in the 26 mile race?

I love watching superhero movies. I still cannot fly, move objects with my mind, or punch through walls.

Thanks for your response.

Watching is not the same thing as experiencing, I think that is exactly what I am getting at. Those examples are not valid to the thing we are talking about for something that happens to Celestial beings. The only one that you could use as an example would be Christ. So, does Christ know what it is like to be a father? ....

It is certainly something that is difficult to comprehend. The same thing applies to understanding how Christ can feel the sorrows of our sins without having done them himself. But can He be that empathetic? I believe so.

I have 4 children. I think you bringing that up is exactly what I am trying to say. Why is it that we feel something different when our child gets an A in a class as opposed to the kid who sits next to him/her in the same class? I think this ties into the reasons behind why it is important to learn how to love your neighbor as yourself. And it relates to the power of a Celestial sealing.

If all the people of the Celestial Kingdom have that much empathy, it will be very close to, if not as equal to having done the thing their self.

We are not talking about watching the breaking of an Olympic marathon record but the sharing of the experience and all the joy and happiness such an event could bring, if that qualifies as such an event. Of course that cannot be done here and so it is difficult to understand. But most of us, at least that I know of, have a testimony that God knows of our deepest feelings experiences and thoughts, that I cannot hide anything from him. I cannot tell you how that is done but that it is done.

I'll ask you the question again, is there any aspect of any experience you have had in this life that you can say God has not "experienced" as well and therefore remains ignorant to it? I am not asking how it is done or to try to give you examples of how it can be done in this life as it cannot but simply expressing a characteristic of a divine Celestial being.

[mikbone]

No, there is no experience that I have had that the Lord cannot understand. But that does not mean thar the converse of that statement is true.

You see, I believe that the Lord is infinitely more experienced than you or I. He has been where I am now. He knows the challenges and difficulties. I on the other hand do not understand His ways.

I can look at a 1st grader and sympathize with his trials. But that same 1st grader cannot understand the complications of my life.

And the gulf between us and God is much more vast than myself and a 1st grader.

And yes I believe that Christ knows what it is like to be a father, see Ether 3:15-16.

Edited September 25, 2012 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

No, there is no experience that I have had that the Lord cannot understand. But that does not mean thar the converse of that statement is true.

You see, I believe that the Lord is infinitely more experienced than you or I. He has been where I am now. He knows the challenges and difficulties. I on the other hand do not understand His ways.

I can look at a 1st grader and sympathize with his trials. But that same 1st grader cannot understand the complications of my life.

And the gulf between us and God is much more vast than myself and a 1st grader.

And yes I believe that Christ knows what it is like to be a father, see Ether 3:15-16.

I have not said that we understand His ways now, please don't misunderstand what I am saying. I am talking about the inheritance when the inheritance is given which is not until after this life. I don't disagree with the vast differences between them and us right now.

As the Lord "understands" your experience, does He "understand" it as if He is experienced what you have experienced or are you saying He knows about it because of similar experiences and therefore can extrapolate what it is that you are experiencing?

That may seem like a nit-picky question but I think how one perceives God's ability to see the inner man is very important to what our potential is.

I think God values each soul individually. When a certain individual does something that is praiseworthy, I believe God is aware of it intimately, in other words - experiences it, as it relates to that person alone. He doesn't just hear about it or given some report about it, I believe He intimately knows about it just like when I can tell my child is not feeling well or is happy but a million times more, to the point of it is as if He experiences it himself.

If God can do it, I don't see why we at some point could not do the same. If that is true, then His experience could be inherited by knowing Him that well some day. Isn't that what life eternal is, to know the true God? John 17:3 Not just to know about Him, or hear the stories, but to really know Him and all that He has experienced ... whoever takes that on would truly be one with Him and be endless. There is a beginning to yours and mine individually but it becomes without beginning or end when the whole is included as our own. That is what makes life eternal.

[mikbone]

I have not said that we understand His ways now, please don't misunderstand what I am saying. I am talking about the inheritance when the inheritance is given which is not until after this life. I don't disagree with the vast differences between them and us right now.

As the Lord "understands" your experience, does He "understand" it as if He is experienced what you have experienced or are you saying He knows about it because of similar experiences and therefore can extrapolate what it is that you are experiencing?

That may seem like a nit-picky question but I think how one perceives God's ability to see the inner man is very important to what our potential is.

It is both. He has had past experiences that let Him empathically understand our feelings. And He is omniscient. We can't hide anything from him. Joseph Smith has been quoted on numerous occasions stating that the 'Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.' If this is true then perhaps Both God the Father and Jehovah served in a state similar to that of the Holy Ghost prior to arriving at their exalted stations. These experiences would allow one to understand our collective lives and experiences...

I think God values each soul individually. When a certain individual does something that is praiseworthy, I believe God is aware of it intimately, in other words - experiences it, as it relates to that person alone. He doesn't just hear about it or given some report about it, I believe He intimately knows about it just like when I can tell my child is not feeling well or is happy but a million times more, to the point of it is as if He experiences it himself.

If God can do it, I don't see why we at some point could not do the same. If that is true, then His experience could be inherited by knowing Him that well some day. Isn't that what life eternal is, to know the true God? John 17:3 Not just to know about Him, or hear the stories, but to really know Him and all that He has experienced ... whoever takes that on would truly be one with Him and be endless. There is a beginning to yours and mine individually but it becomes without beginning or end when the whole is included as our own. That is what makes life eternal.

Sure at some time in the distant future. IF we are worthy, and climb the ladder or trod the path that those whom have gone before have done. We will be worthy of the same blessings that they now receive.

Yes. Eternal life is to know the true God. And to know it, you must experience it. Experience comes through experience, there is no other way. That is why our beloved first mother partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

You seem to believe that there is some short-cut that will let us bypass the work, fear and trembling portion of the plan of exaltation... That we will inherit Godhood and Exaltation without going through all the messy parts.

Do you think that when we enter into the Celestial Kingdom that we will be granted an Urim and Thummin and that we will be able to interface with this supercomputer and immediately download all the experiences that we will need to act as a God and start populating our own worlds?

What are your expectations? I am curious to know how you think it is going to transpire that you become a Goddess?

Edited September 26, 2012 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is both. He has had past experiences that let Him empathically understand our feelings. And He is omniscient. We can't hide anything from him. Joseph Smith has been quoted on numerous occasions stating that the 'Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.' If this is true then perhaps Both God the Father and Jehovah served in a state similar to that of the Holy Ghost prior to arriving at their exalted stations. These experiences would allow one to understand our collective lives and experiences...

Sure at some time in the distant future. IF we are worthy, and climb the ladder or trod the path that those whom have gone before have done. We will be worthy of the same blessings that they now receive.

Yes. Eternal life is to know the true God. And to know it, you must experience it. Experience comes through experience, there is no other way. That is why our beloved first mother partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

You seem to believe that there is some short-cut that will let us bypass the work, fear and trembling portion of the plan of exaltation... That we will inherit Godhood and Exaltation without going through all the messy parts.

Do you think that when we enter into the Celestial Kingdom that we will be granted an Urim and Thummin and that we will be able to interface with this supercomputer and immediately download all the experiences that we will need to act as a God and start populating our own worlds?

What are your expectations? I am curious to know how you think it is going to transpire that you become a Goddess?

I think it is done through learning, I just disagree with the idea that every person has to step on every rung of the experience ladder. For example, how would you account for the person who dies at the age of 1 day old who never knows sin. Or the many that die with trisomy 21 etc.

What is learning by faith? I don't have to murder to know that murder is bad. In other words, I don't have to experience the act of murdering to know of the severity of the act. We also know that those for example who could not marry in this life or have children for whatever reason will be judged based on the desires of their heart, not that they have to have the actual experience to have it count towards the fulfillment of those commandments, to multiply on Earth.

We are not here mostly for experience. We are here first to get a body and then be tested to see if we will do the things we are asked to do so that we might pass the second estate test. The experience thing is just a bonus aspect of this life, it is not a rung on the ladder. Remember God is not a respecter of persons, He is not going to care if one is a CEO of fortune 500 company versus manure shoveler in the swamps of Brazil, as far as the value of the experience needed to enter into the Celestial Kingdom. The scale of judgement is what is inside, what is in the heart. This second estate test, in other words, is a test of character, it is not a test of fund of knowledge or fund of experience with the exception of experiences and knowledge that pertains to the main part of the test, character. Experiences that build the character are important individually, but there is not a single ladder for that. Everyone has different challenges in life, different experience ladders that have to or not have to be done but that is not required as exemplified by the baby who dies in the first hour of life.

I think it is a HUGE misconception about the purpose of this life even amongst LDS that they think there has to be enough "experience points" gathered up in one's life to advance. The only experience points that have to be gathered up in one's life is the set that Father has asked of that person individually which may vary from just living an honest life to being the President of the Church. For some just living an honest life is 100% of the experience points they need for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom, they do not need to pass the test of being the President of the Church. Whereas others, where much is given much is expected. In other words, if the person given just one talent would have doubled his talent it would have been counted as equal placement as the one how doubled their 5 talents. If we say it is otherwise, then God is a respecter of persons and we would have to say that he has already harshly judged those that might have a learning disability or those with mental retardation or those with brain injury from being abused as a child or those born in under developed countries, etc.

How do you account for the trisomy 18 child who never experiences sin in the way you see things? They will never have the experience of being challenged with mortal/carnal temptations.

[mikbone]

Section 130: 18-21

[Seminarysnoozer]

Section 130: 18-21

Yes, thank you. Those verses go exactly with what I am saying. That intelligence is predicated on the principles of diligence and obedience. That our blessings are predicated on the level of obedience, that is the law. If someone gains intelligence not based in those principles then there is no promise there. It is the level of diligence and obedience from which the amount of blessings is stratified not the quantity of intelligence or knowledge.

What is a "principle of intelligence" as opposed to intelligence?

It is explained in Alma 7:23, where the footnote for those verses takes us; "And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent in keeping the commandments of God at all times; asking for whatsoever things ye stand in need, both spiritual and temporal; always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive."

The "principle of intelligence" is to know light and truth based in diligence in keeping the commandments and "always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive." Meaning, realizing that you didn't really learn the intelligence or piece of knowledge on your own, that is what is meant by "principle of intelligence". It is to learn the very thing I have been talking about, that all intelligence comes from someone else work and experience, namely God's. Any of those kinds of things learned in verse 23 of Alma 7 are the things that will stick with us for which we will have the advantage in the next life; humble, submissiveness, gentle, full of patience, etc.

And also the footnote to the word diligence from the verses you mentioned takes us to Hebrews 11:16 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Another words, what pleases God is the knowledge and diligence in the principles of faith, which is not the accumulation of facts and pieces of knowledge obtained otherwise.

Knowledge (also found by looking at the footnote from the scripture you gave) takes us to the original piece of knowledge we all came here for which is the knowledge of good and evil. Having the ability to discern good from evil is the knowledge we are after, which comes by being righteous and in tune with the spirit. So, the scripture is saying that anyone who is righteous will have an advantage in the next life because of their righteousness and their righteousness will stick with them. This kind of knowledge is better than experiential knowledge as it is the guide to any future event for which there is no experience. Would you rather have the ability to discern between good and evil or just recall having experienced good and evil in the past? As we see many times over in the scriptures, experiential knowledge does nothing for people if they are not diligent in their righteousness.

I can tell you I would rather have perfect discernment of good and evil which is to say the knowledge of all truth and light and it's associated integrity than experience. "Experience" by definition requires trial and error. Whereas, diligence, integrity and faithfulness are the principles in which learning can take place without mistake or error. I believe in the end of trial and error. For some reason, it seems that you hope that trial and error continues into the next life.

[Traveler]

Yes, thank you. Those verses go exactly with what I am saying. That intelligence is predicated on the principles of diligence and obedience. That our blessings are predicated on the level of obedience, that is the law. If someone gains intelligence not based in those principles then there is no promise there. It is the level of diligence and obedience from which the amount of blessings is stratified not the quantity of intelligence or knowledge.

What is a "principle of intelligence" as opposed to intelligence?

It is explained in Alma 7:23, where the footnote for those verses takes us; "And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent in keeping the commandments of God at all times; asking for whatsoever things ye stand in need, both spiritual and temporal; always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive."

The "principle of intelligence" is to know light and truth based in diligence in keeping the commandments and "always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive." Meaning, realizing that you didn't really learn the intelligence or piece of knowledge on your own, that is what is meant by "principle of intelligence". It is to learn the very thing I have been talking about, that all intelligence comes from someone else work and experience, namely God's. Any of those kinds of things learned in verse 23 of Alma 7 are the things that will stick with us for which we will have the advantage in the next life; humble, submissiveness, gentle, full of patience, etc.

And also the footnote to the word diligence from the verses you mentioned takes us to Hebrews 11:16 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Another words, what pleases God is the knowledge and diligence in the principles of faith, which is not the accumulation of facts and pieces of knowledge obtained otherwise.

Knowledge (also found by looking at the footnote from the scripture you gave) takes us to the original piece of knowledge we all came here for which is the knowledge of good and evil. Having the ability to discern good from evil is the knowledge we are after, which comes by being righteous and in tune with the spirit. So, the scripture is saying that anyone who is righteous will have an advantage in the next life because of their righteousness and their righteousness will stick with them. This kind of knowledge is better than experiential knowledge as it is the guide to any future event for which there is no experience. Would you rather have the ability to discern between good and evil or just recall having experienced good and evil in the past? As we see many times over in the scriptures, experiential knowledge does nothing for people if they are not diligent in their righteousness.

I can tell you I would rather have perfect discernment of good and evil which is to say the knowledge of all truth and light and it's associated integrity than experience. "Experience" by definition requires trial and error. Whereas, diligence, integrity and faithfulness are the principles in which learning can take place without mistake or error. I believe in the end of trial and error. For some reason, it seems that you hope that trial and error continues into the next life.

A thought for you. How to measure intelligence or light and truth? From my engineering and scientific side I observe that the higher the life form; the more dependent that life form is in fostering symbiant (or shall I say a oneness) relationships with other (lower) life forms.

Perhaps being one with G-d is not really anymore important than being one with any enlightened intelligence we encounter. Hmmm: G-d (according to Genesis) started everything from the beginning with the intent to separate light from darkness. Maybe our goal should be to find place symbiosis with beings of light?

The Traveler

[mikbone]

I can tell you I would rather have perfect discernment of good and evil which is to say the knowledge of all truth and light and it's associated integrity than experience. "Experience" by definition requires trial and error. Whereas, diligence, integrity and faithfulness are the principles in which learning can take place without mistake or error. I believe in the end of trial and error. For some reason, it seems that you hope that trial and error continues into the next life.

Trial and error is integral to the plan of salvation. Otherwise Father would have chosen Lucifers plan (Moses 4:1-3) wherein none would have been lost. Agency would have been forefit. And we could have learned without mistake or error.

It is my hope that as my trials continue my errors will decrease until that perfect day.

D&C 122: 7-8

Hope Ya Know, We Had a Hard Time

There is one other thing that I wish that your would consider. The concept that we have been discussing in this post is not really important to our salvation. We are trying to peer through the veil and predict what the hereafter is going to be like. The majority of all scripture does not really discuss the issues that we have been poorly debating.

The reason that I keep quoting Joseph Smith, particularly the King Follett Discourse is that during that general conference talk. Brother Joseph felt the need to delve into deep doctrine and try to explain some of the issues of eternity and our future in heaven. Most LDS members probably don't even recognize what he was attempting to do on that day in April 7, 1844.

If you want to understand what our relationship with Heavenly Father is going to be like in the future, you have to see it like Joseph Smith did. Or you have to read the words of the Men whom have had their calling and election made sure, saw thru the veil and then attempted to share some of their knowledge with us. These occurrences are few.

Ether 3 - The brother of Jared and his vision

Joseph Smith Jr.

Abraham

Enoch

Edited September 27, 2012 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

Trial and error is integral to the plan of salvation. Otherwise Father would have chosen Lucifers plan (Moses 4:1-3) wherein none would have been lost. Agency would have been forefit. And we could have learned without mistake or error.

It is my hope that as my trials continue my errors will decrease until that perfect day.

D&C 122: 7-8

Hope Ya Know, We Had a Hard Time

There is one other thing that I wish that your would consider. The concept that we have been discussing in this post is not really important to our salvation. We are trying to peer through the veil and predict what the hereafter is going to be like. The majority of all scripture does not really discuss the issues that we have been poorly debating.

The reason that I keep quoting Joseph Smith, particularly the King Follett Discourse is that during that general conference talk. Brother Joseph felt the need to delve into deep doctrine and try to explain some of the issues of eternity and our future in heaven. Most LDS members probably don't even recognize what he was attempting to do on that day in April 7, 1844.

If you want to understand what our relationship with Heavenly Father is going to be like in the future, you have to see it like Joseph Smith did. Or you have to read the words of the Men whom have had their calling and election made sure, saw thru the veil and then attempted to share some of their knowledge with us. These occurrences are few.

Ether 3 - The brother of Jared and his vision

Joseph Smith Jr.

Abraham

Enoch

Thanks for engaging me.

Satan's presented plan and the war in Heaven was regarding this probationary state. It was a discussion of whether we should pass through a trial and error state or not. The discussion wasn't about whether the trial and error phase should continue forever. D&C 122: 7-8 is regarding this probationary state. And the talk you referenced by Elder Cook includes this quote "“My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;

“And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high.” and Elder Cook clearly states he is taking about "... in this life".

There is a difference between what happens in this probationary state designed for a specific purpose that we call the second estate. The second estate ends. It does not continue as a life in the Celestial Kingdom. When what is supposed to happen in the second estate mistakenly is pulled into what happens in the eternal presence of God then it lessons the magnitude of the Saviors redemptive power. So, for me, it is very pertinent to how we worship. I believe in a Savior that will save me from this fallen state. I believe He will not only pull me out of this fallen state if I follow His commandments and example but will also propel me forward beyond what I could have done for myself. That is directly tied into the love that I have for my Savior now. So, is this discussion pertinent to that view? Absolutely.

The idea that this has not been discussed or revealed is not entirely true, it just has to be recognized as such. As explained in Gospel Doctrine; "The Lord counsels us, “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 14:7).

The Lord has described other blessings that will come to those who obey Him in righteousness and truth until the end:

“Thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.

“Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory.

“And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom.

“Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations.

“And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven. …

“For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man” (D&C 76:5–10)."

By righteousness (not experience) can we know of "all the hidden mysteries" and God gives that to those in the Celestial Kingdom "by my spirit... by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will... " and not by anything the eye as seen or the ear heard or entered into the heart of man. In other words, it doesn't come via our mortal experience, it comes by the power of the spirit and the wonders of eternity shall be known even from Kingdoms of old and for ages to come. It is hard to reveal an unknown desire of the heart (love). To love God is to know Him and to keep His commandments. To really know him, i.e - "the secrets of my will" does not come in this life, the corrupted human brain is not capable of such a thing. Only a celestialized, glorified body would be capable of such a thing. And that can only happen after the second estate is done. Please don't pull the second estate conditions into the world of rest from those things. Our Savior actually saves us from those conditions, He doesn't let them continue, He really does overcome it all for us. How much we accept that idea will determine what Kingdom we end up in. Those that fully accept the Savior's grace will end up in the Celestial Kingdom as opposed to those that say to themselves, 'I don't need His help' to varying degrees.

[mikbone]

Why are we here at all then.

Why not just arrange a earthly simulation wherein all the members of humanity either die before the age of accountability or are mentally retarded?

Sure would have been nice if everyone could have just skipped earth life and learned by osmosis just by being in God's presence. Why couldn't we have learned all the diligence, integrity and faithfulness without mistake or error during the pre-mortal existence.

Or..., why didn't God just cast Satan into Outer darkness instead of down here to Earth. He could have done so easily. Then your idea of how we are to learn would have been so much easier.

Why fight? Why struggle so much?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Why are we here at all then.

Why not just arrange a earthly simulation wherein all the members of humanity either die before the age of accountability or are mentally retarded?

Sure would have been nice if everyone could have just skipped earth life and learned by osmosis just by being in God's presence. Why couldn't we have learned all the diligence, integrity and faithfulness without mistake or error during the pre-mortal existence.

Or..., why didn't God just cast Satan into Outer darkness instead of down here to Earth. He could have done so easily. Then your idea of how we are to learn would have been so much easier.

Why fight? Why struggle so much?

Because God does not give gifts to those who would not or could not receive it. It would be to their condemnation to do so.

So there is a stratification of what we are capable of comprehending and participating in that is based in the things for which we are being tested, such as obedience faithfulness and righteousness. The struggle is in terms of faith which allows for that stratification. At the end of the second estate will be a determination of level of glorification. Some won't be in the direct presence of God. The test for some has to be done under the cloud of the veil to reveal the true nature of the individual.

If anything, the way that you are proposing would not require a probationary period. If it is just by one's own effort then there is no need for a probationary period it is just 'climb up the ladder as far as you can go'. It would just be a test of capability and not worthiness and desire.

The fastest and easiest way to learn is by faith, not trial and error. If a first grader is told that the plural of goose is geese but the child said "I don't believe you, I don't trust you, I am going to go with 'gooses' for a while and see how that works out". And they had a similar response to most everything the First grade teacher taught, then likely that child would not make it past the first grade and it would take them a considerable amount of time to arrive at the truth or at least the correct answers on their own. They may not ever arrive at the correct answers. It is more so when learning about God's truth, the only way to it is by faith and trust. Those that do not exhibit the capacity for such amounts of faith could not handle the extensive truths that are found in Celestial spheres.

The other reason is that the glory of God is dependent on (at least in part) bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. In other words, God glories in the success of others. Part of the purpose of this life is to separate those that have a similar mindset. Those that do not glory in the success of others (i.e. - love their neighbor as their self) could not receive all the shared glory and success of all those that surround them in the Celestial Kingdom. Why give a gift to someone who would not or could not receive it?

[mikbone]

D&C 78: 17-22

D&C 58: 2-4

The other comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest & perhaps understood by few of this generation, After a person hath faith in Christ, repents of his sins & is Baptized for the remission of his sins & received the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands) which is the first Comforter then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering & thirsting after Righteousness. & living by every word of God & the Lord will soon say unto him Son thou shalt be exalted. &c When the Lord has thoroughly proved him & finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazard. then the man will find his calling & Election made sure then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter which the Lord hath promised the saints as is recorded in the testimony of St John in the XIV ch from the 12th to the 27 verses Note the 16, 17, 18, 21, 23 verses. (16.vs) & I will pray the father & he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; (17) Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him; but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you & shall be in you. (18) I will not leave you comfortless. I will come to you (21) He that hath my commandments & keepeth them, he it is that loveth me. & he that loveth me shall be loved of my father & I will love him & will manifest myself to him (23) If a man Love me he will keep my words. & my Father will love him. & we will come unto him, & make our abode with him.

Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more or less than the Lord Jesus Christ himself & this is the sum & substance of the whole matter, that when any man obtains this last Comforter he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him or appear unto him from time to time. & even he will manifest the Father unto him & they will take up their abode with him, & the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him & the Lord will teach him face to face & he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God, & this is the state & place the Ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious vision Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St Paul in the third heavens, & all the Saints who held communion with the general Assembly & Church of the First Born &c.

Council Meeting of Presidency and Twelve Apostles on June 27, 1839 Joseph Smith, Jr. as recorded in the Willard Richards Pocket companion

Now their is some grand secret ther & keys to unlock the subject Not withstanding the Apostle exhorts them to make their Calling Add to their faith virtue Knowledge temperance &C yet he exhorts them to make their Calling & election Shure & though they had herd the audible voice from heaven bearing testinoy that Jesus was the Son of God yet he says we have a more sure word of Prophecy where unto ye do well that ye take heed as unto a light shining in a dark place. Now wherein could they have a more sure word of prophecy than to hear the voice of God saying this is my Beloved Son &C

Now for the Secret & grand Key though they might hear the voice of God & know that Jesus was the Son of God this would be no evidence that their election & Calling & election was made shure that they had part with Christ & was a Joint heir with him, they then would want that more sure word of Prophecy that they were sealed in the heavens & had the promise of eternal live in the Kingdom of God then having this promise sealed unto them it was as an anchor to the Soul Sure & Steadfast though the thunders might roll & lightnings flash & earthquakes Bellow & war gather thick around yet this hope & knowledge would support the soul in evry hour of trail [trial] trouble & tribulation Then Knowledge through our Lord & savior Jesus Christ is the grand Key that unlocks the glories & misteries of the Kingdom of heaven Compair this principle once with Christondom at the present day & whare are they with all their boasted religion piety & sacredness while at the same time they are Crying out against Prophets Apostles Angels Revelation, Prophesyings, & Visions &C. Why they are Just ripening for the damnation of hell,they will be damned for they reject the more glorious principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ & treat with disdain & trample under foot the main key that unlocks the heavens & puts in our possession the glories of the Celestial world. Yes I say such will be damned with all their professed godliness

Then I would exhort you to go on & continue to call upon God until you make your Calling & election sure for yourselves by obtaining this more sure word of Prophesey & wait patiently for the promise untill you obtain it Many other very useful remarks were made on the occasion by Joseph the Seer.

Sermon delivered at Yelrome, Hancock County, Ill. on Sunday May 14, 1843 Joseph Smith, Jr. as recorded in Wilford Woodruff Journal

The above 2 quotes by the prophet describe the ordinance of receiving one's calling and election. It is the ultimate blessing that one can receive here on earth, or even in heaven. You may notice that one can receive this blessing only after having the Lord thoroughly prove him, wherein the Lord finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazard. Please notice that Joseph Smith also states that one can hear the voice of God and know that Jesus is the Son of God, and still not have this blessing.

Thus if we have not had this ordinance during this earth life, we will have to continue to work in the hereafter until we are worthy of the blessing.

Edited September 28, 2012 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

D&C 78: 17-22

D&C 58: 2-4

Council Meeting of Presidency and Twelve Apostles on June 27, 1839 Joseph Smith, Jr. as recorded in the Willard Richards Pocket companion

Sermon delivered at Yelrome, Hancock County, Ill. on Sunday May 14, 1843 Joseph Smith, Jr. as recorded in Wilford Woodruff Journal

The above 2 quotes by the prophet describe the ordinance of receiving one's calling and election. It is the ultimate blessing that one can receive here on earth, or even in heaven. You may notice that one can receive this blessing only after having the Lord thoroughly prove him, wherein the Lord finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazard. Please notice that Joseph Smith also states that one can hear the voice of God and know that Jesus is the Son of God, and still not have this blessing.

Thus if we have not had this ordinance during this earth life, we will have to continue to work in the hereafter until we are worthy of the blessing.

What makes you think that the successful completion of the first and second estate does not satisfy the requirement of "the Lord thoroughly prove him"?

This is the Lord's decision but based in a lot of variables that we do not have. For example, a child that dies with trisomny 18, has that child been thoroughly proven? Obviously yes, they will go to the Celestial Kingdom. They will have successfully fulfilled the first and second estate tests. What more is left?

[mikbone]

What makes you think that the successful completion of the first and second estate does not satisfy the requirement of "the Lord thoroughly prove him"?

This is the Lord's decision but based in a lot of variables that we do not have. For example, a child that dies with trisomny 18, has that child been thoroughly proven? Obviously yes, they will go to the Celestial Kingdom. They will have successfully fulfilled the first and second estate tests. What more is left?

Depends on how you define success and exaltation.

Trisomy 18 is Edwards syndrome, I assume you ment someone with (21), or just mental retardation.

Anyway, those who have mental retardation or die before age 8 qualify for the Celestial kingdom but not the highest level of that kingdom...

Entrance into the highest lvl requires temple marriage...

[Seminarysnoozer]

Depends on how you define success and exaltation.

Trisomy 18 is Edwards syndrome, I assume you ment someone with (21), or just mental retardation.

Anyway, those who have mental retardation or die before age 8 qualify for the Celestial kingdom but not the highest level of that kingdom...

Entrance into the highest lvl requires temple marriage...

It doesn't depend on how I define it, they have passed the first and second estate. But that is okay, we can still say those that die very early in life who also take advantage of opportunities to marry and satisfy that requirement but who also never personally experience sin, they qualify. Of the 8% of trisomy 18 that survive past the first year of life, they are severely mentally undeveloped and most of those that survive longer are not truly trisomy 18, they are mosaics. (that is why I use trisomy 18 as opposed to 21, but either one is fine - I use trisomy 18 just so there is no doubt as to the possibility of having any meaningful, post age of accountability, mortal trial involving carnal consciousness of any kind)

The question is still, why do you think there is something more than passing the first and second estate for the Lord to have enough information to make the designation that the person has been "thoroughly proven" according to the quotes given?

[mikbone]

D&C 131: 1-4 clearly states that if you do not enter into the 3rd level of the Celestial Kingdom via the new and everlasting covenant that you cannot have an increase.

There will be many that enter into the celestial kingdom that do not enter into the 3rd level.

Those people that come to earth that do not live past the age of accountability or are mentally retarded do not enter into the new and everlasting covenant.

True they have passed thru the 2nd estate, but they have NOT gained entrance into the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

And even If one is married in the temple and enters into the new and everlasting covenant, if the ordinance is not sealed by the holy spirit of promise it is not binding.

Receiving ones calling and election is the only sure fire way to know if you are going to make it into the highest level of the celestial kingdom. And thus have the type of existence that God has - Exaltation.

Edited September 29, 2012 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

D&C 131: 1-4 clearly states that if you do not enter into the 3rd level of the Celestial Kingdom via the new and everlasting covenant that you cannot have an increase.

There will be many that enter into the celestial kingdom that do not enter into the 3rd level.

Those people that come to earth that do not live past the age of accountability or are mentally retarded do not enter into the new and everlasting covenant.

True they have passed thru the 2nd estate, but they have NOT gained entrance into the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

And even If one is married in the temple and enters into the new and everlasting covenant, if the ordinance is not sealed by the holy spirit of promise it is not binding.

Receiving ones calling and election is the only sure fire way to know if you are going to make it into the highest level of the celestial kingdom. And thus have the type of existence that God has - Exaltation.

I agree with you on these points. (except, lets make it clear that those that die before the age of accountability will have the opportunity to take on the new and everlasting covenant before the second estate test is over)

I don't think the discussion was about who or who isn't making it into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom so long as you agree that some will as a result of their actions during the second estate test. The discussion was about what is inherited when there is the promise of inheriting "all", whoever that may be. The discussion is also about when that is determined, at the end of the second estate test or at some other undetermined point in time after some other trials and tests that have not yet been revealed occur. Learning and growth can occur without forks in the road. A train can move down the track fast or slow but it really can't go anywhere but down the track unless there is a switch in the track.

You stated; "It is my hope that as my trials continue my errors will decrease until that perfect day." (referring to after the completion of the second estate)

My question to you is where is that switch after the second estate test which you are not answering. You are saying there is still something to "overcome" after this life, there is still something to try in a person, meaning there are potentially different tracks that could take a person away from what they are promised and rewarded as a result of passing the second estate test and fulfilling all the covenants given as a part of the second estate test. So, what is left over, what other fork in the road is there that would make the Lord not say that "He has thoroughly proved him, wherein He finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazard."??

If there is no chance for failure from that course, does not that mean that that person's calling and election is made sure? You think that once a person is admitted to the Celestial Kingdom, God could have made a mistake and they would be disqualified some how from that promise of inheriting "all"?

[mikbone]

I agree with you on these points. (except, lets make it clear that those that die before the age of accountability will have the opportunity to take on the new and everlasting covenant before the second estate test is over)

Please do try. It is not by any means clear. I would like you to back up this statement with references from scripture...

Children who pass away By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

I don't think the discussion was about who or who isn't making it into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom so long as you agree that some will as a result of their actions during the second estate test. The discussion was about what is inherited when there is the promise of inheriting "all", whoever that may be. The discussion is also about when that is determined, at the end of the second estate test or at some other undetermined point in time after some other trials and tests that have not yet been revealed occur. Learning and growth can occur without forks in the road. A train can move down the track fast or slow but it really can't go anywhere but down the track unless there is a switch in the track.

Those who receive their calling and election will inherit the capacity to continue progressing eternally. All others in this life are in question... Even if you have been through the temple this does not guarantee your exaltation. The ordinance must be sealed by the holy spirit of promise. I have not witnessed this personally and have not seen anyone in my stake wearing any patches that display 'sealed by the holy spirit of promise'. It is my personal belief that all that receive exaltation must obtain their calling and election, either in this life or the next. It would be wise to seek this blessing during this mortal life. Joseph Smith has recommended as much.

Those who do not inherit exaltation are in effect damned. If you make it into the 1st or 2nd level of the celestial kingdom, you do not inherit exaltation or eternal increase.

You stated; "It is my hope that as my trials continue my errors will decrease until that perfect day." (referring to after the completion of the second estate)

My question to you is where is that switch after the second estate test which you are not answering. You are saying there is still something to "overcome" after this life, there is still something to try in a person, meaning there are potentially different tracks that could take a person away from what they are promised and rewarded as a result of passing the second estate test and fulfilling all the covenants given as a part of the second estate test. So, what is left over, what other fork in the road is there that would make the Lord not say that "He has thoroughly proved him, wherein He finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazard."??

I know that It will be long after my resurrection that I become perfect, if at all. I will strive for my calling and election and I know that it will be a difficult process. I do not feel that the Lord owes me anything. But He has set the mark and I am determined to keep working toward that goal. There are many examples of people whom have received their calling and election during this life, they do not boast of their success, but if you read the scriptures carefully you can determine which prophets have been successful. If you are asking me where I think that the switch is that will allow me to have me calling and election made sure, I would have to say, I don't know. But I will continue to study the scriptures, and do what I know it right. With hope, and determination through obedience perhaps it will come during this life. But I don't expect it.

D&C 82

10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

24 For even yet the kingdom is yours, and shall be forever, if you fall not from your steadfastness. Even so. Amen.

If there is no chance for failure from that course, does not that mean that that person's calling and election is made sure? You think that once a person is admitted to the Celestial Kingdom, God could have made a mistake and they would be disqualified some how from that promise of inheriting "all"?

Entrance into the Celestial Kingdom does not guarantee anyone exaltation.

The only way that one can be guaranteed exaltation is to receive one's calling and election and then not murder or deny the holy spirit.

This may be contrary to your previous understanding and it may be disappointing to realize that you will only be given what you are worthy to have - but it is so. Try reading the scriptures like an attorney. There are many contracts that are offered by the Lord. But you must fulfill your part before He can fulfill his part. If not so, it would not be fair to all the other souls who will not receive exaltation. Mercy cannot rob justice.

The temple ceremony is unequivocal concerning these things.

Check out Mark 10: 36-40

That the organization of the spiritual and heavenly worlds, and of spiritual and heavenly beings, was agreeably to the most perfect order and harmony--that their limits, and bounds were fixed irrevocably, and voluntarily subscribed to by themselves.

Joseph Smith, Jr. Funeral sermon for James Adams delivered at the General Conference of the Church held a Nauvoo, Ill. on Monday (afternoon) October 9, 1843, as recorded in the Times and Seasons. Edited September 29, 2012 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

Please do try. It is not by any means clear. I would like you to back up this statement with references from scripture...

Children who pass away By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

Those who receive their calling and election will inherit the capacity to continue progressing eternally. All others in this life are in question... Even if you have been through the temple this does not guarantee your exaltation. The ordinance must be sealed by the holy spirit of promise. I have not witnessed this personally and have not seen anyone in my stake wearing any patches that display 'sealed by the holy spirit of promise'. It is my personal belief that all that receive exaltation must obtain their calling and election, either in this life or the next. It would be wise to seek this blessing during this mortal life. Joseph Smith has recommended as much.

Those who do not inherit exaltation are in effect damned. If you make it into the 1st or 2nd level of the celestial kingdom, you do not inherit exaltation or eternal increase.

I know that It will be long after my resurrection that I become perfect, if at all. I will strive for my calling and election and I know that it will be a difficult process. I do not feel that the Lord owes me anything. But He has set the mark and I am determined to keep working toward that goal. There are many examples of people whom have received their calling and election during this life, they do not boast of their success, but if you read the scriptures carefully you can determine which prophets have been successful. If you are asking me where I think that the switch is that will allow me to have me calling and election made sure, I would have to say, I don't know. But I will continue to study the scriptures, and do what I know it right. With hope, and determination through obedience perhaps it will come during this life. But I don't expect it.

D&C 82

10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

24 For even yet the kingdom is yours, and shall be forever, if you fall not from your steadfastness. Even so. Amen.

Entrance into the Celestial Kingdom does not guarantee anyone exaltation.

The only way that one can be guaranteed exaltation is to receive one's calling and election and then not murder or deny the holy spirit.

This may be contrary to your previous understanding and it may be disappointing to realize that you will only be given what you are worthy to have - but it is so. Try reading the scriptures like an attorney. There are many contracts that are offered by the Lord. But you must fulfill your part before He can fulfill his part. If not so, it would not be fair to all the other souls who will not receive exaltation. Mercy cannot rob justice.

The temple ceremony is unequivocal concerning these things.

Check out Mark 10: 36-40

Joseph Smith, Jr. Funeral sermon for James Adams delivered at the General Conference of the Church held a Nauvoo, Ill. on Monday (afternoon) October 9, 1843, as recorded in the Times and Seasons.

I don't disagree with the need to fulfill our part. It is the "our part" that I think we are disagreeing on.

I don't need to replicate everything that God did to be like God. Just like you don't have to discover (meaning invent it on your own before anyone teaches you about it) germ theory on your own to be able to use sterile techniques when you do surgery. There are many things that are inherited. How are they inherited? By doing "our part", no doubt. But "our part" does not have to be a 'de novo'/ trial and error/ 'discover on your own' experience. The knowledge and experience of those that went before can be received. We can gather many things from those that have gone before us, namely Christ if we have faith in Him and actually follow Him. The limiting factor is not experience but the faith enough to actually receive what He is offering. Sometimes it takes experience to develop the kind of faith needed to receive such things but sometimes it does not exemplified by those that die before the age of 8 as they have likely proven to the Lord in all things that they are already capable of receiving all.

[norah63]

Just stopping by to say it is very enlightning to read these posts.

Never thought about the grace vs works as being a topic here.

Have always been able to see both sides, yet come away knowing that grace truly does the work.

Our labors of love on behalf of our Heavenly Father are just that. Doesn't add anything to the gift of grace, moreover it shows much gratitude for that grace.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Just stopping by to say it is very enlightning to read these posts.

Never thought about the grace vs works as being a topic here.

Have always been able to see both sides, yet come away knowing that grace truly does the work.

Our labors of love on behalf of our Heavenly Father are just that. Doesn't add anything to the gift of grace, moreover it shows much gratitude for that grace.

Thanks for your post. I think our acts of love do add to the gift of grace in the long run in that it is through love that they are given and received. The desires of our heart, what we love, is what we allow God to give us. Also love for one's neighbor as one self is the kind of love that we need to learn to appreciate and understand who these things can be passed from one person to another as a gift, or in other words share.

The parable of the laborers in the vineyard and Elder Holland's discussion of it, shows that the Lord is willing to give the same reward to all the laborers despite the length of time they worked in the field. That is because the reward is not based in the quantity of the personal effort (works) it is based in the quality of the works (what is in a person's heart). For some reason, there are many LDS that believe that a certain quantity of works, couched in the description of experience, that has to be done to reach certain levels of rewards in the end. Unfortunately too, I think a lot of non-members see our religion that way too, at least some of my friends have come to me with that impression. They ask me if I have to pay a certain amount or do a certain amount of service to be saved etc.

We believe that this life is a chance to receive a body and to be proven in our willingness to do the things that are asked of us. "Willingness" being the key factor of our judgment, at least in my opinion, as opposed to the quantity of works. Willingness is often times described as "having an eye single to the glory of God". Do we have our focus on Him or on the selfish things from which we derive our prideful natures? That is what distinguishes a blade of wheat from a tare, not the amount it grows. A short stock of wheat is still wheat.

[mikbone]

Just stopping by to say it is very enlightning to read these posts.

Never thought about the grace vs works as being a topic here.

Have always been able to see both sides, yet come away knowing that grace truly does the work.

Our labors of love on behalf of our Heavenly Father are just that. Doesn't add anything to the gift of grace, moreover it shows much gratitude for that grace.

By all means, join in the fun.

Grace vs. Works seems to be an endless debate especially when discussing the topics between groups of LDS members vs. Christians of other denominations.

Salvation from Spiritual and Physical Death comes entirely from Grace. Grace is an effect of Christ's Atonement. There is no work that one can achieve that will save him or her from spiritual and physical death. Without Jesus and the Atonement, we are all dead.

Exaltation on the other hand (a concept that is singular to the Mormon faith) is offered to those who work for it. Exaltation cannot exist without Salvation so Exaltation is also dependent upon grace. But Grace without Works falls far short of Exaltation.

Most of these arguments a due to a miscommunication of definitions though. (Semantics)

Salvation: By Grace or by Works? - Ensign Apr. 1981 - ensign

Is a great article printed in 1981 by Gearald N. Lund

[Seminarysnoozer]

By all means, join in the fun.

Grace vs. Works seems to be an endless debate especially when discussing the topics between groups of LDS members vs. Christians of other denominations.

Salvation from Spiritual and Physical Death comes entirely from Grace. Grace is an effect of Christ's Atonement. There is no work that one can achieve that will save him or her from spiritual and physical death. Without Jesus and the Atonement, we are all dead.

Exaltation on the other hand (a concept that is singular to the Mormon faith) is offered to those who work for it. Exaltation cannot exist without Salvation so Exaltation is also dependent upon grace. But Grace without Works falls far short of Exaltation.

Most of these arguments a due to a miscommunication of definitions though. (Semantics)

Salvation: By Grace or by Works? - Ensign Apr. 1981 - ensign

Is a great article printed in 1981 by Gearald N. Lund

Thanks Mikbone for bringing us back to common ground. Even though you and I have gone back and forth for a while on this thread I believe we have more in common in our beliefs than not. And I know that, otherwise I don't think I would want to have much of a conversation.

As I read the scriptures and the underlying messages in the many examples of righteousness, one common feature of all who are described as righteous is the desire to give the glory to God. Even when great works have been performed and someone has even put in what seems to be singular effort in their success, those that are righteous humble their self before God and give all thanks and praise to God. There is importance in that mindset. The trap that is set for those that depend on works is the direction opposite of humility and opposite of keeping our eye single to the glory of God. And this is where, leaning in the direction of grace allows a person to more firmly keep their eye single to the glory of God.

This came up in Sunday School this week even. As we discussed the events in the first few chapters of 3 Nephi ; " ... And all these things were done by command of Gidgiddoni. ... 30 And they did rejoice and cry again with one voice, saying: May the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, protect this people in righteousness, so long as they shall call on the name of their God for protection.

31 And it came to pass that they did break forth, all as one, in singing, and praising their God for the great thing which he had done for them, in preserving them from falling into the hands of their enemies.

32 Yea, they did cry: Hosanna to the Most High God. And they did cry: Blessed be the name of the Lord God Almighty, the Most High God.

33 And their hearts were swollen with joy, unto the gushing out of many tears, because of the great goodness of God in delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; and they knew it was because of their repentance and their humility that they had been delivered from an everlasting destruction."

In that example, the people could have either given praise to all the great works and leadership skills and the works of the people to follow Gidgiddoni and thus put their hearts in the hand of man and that would not have been false because there were many good works done. Or they could turn their thanks and joy towards God for their deliverance which they did. This is one of many important features of those who are counted as righteous in this world. I think this is a characteristic that sometimes has to be developed but it starts with realizing even if we do many great works with out own hands we have nothing without God. So, even all the way through Exaltation, those that receive that high reward will be giving all praise to God for such a gift. I would imagine that not even in the least bit will those people that receive Exaltation have their eyes on their self over having their eye single to the glory of God. And in this way, the discussion of works versus glory takes an important role which is to say where our hearts lie, on self effort or the hand of God which is in ALL things even the things in which it seems like we did it all by our self (which is a lie).