0 Tolerance High Violence

[slamjet]

My one daughter, when she was in 5th grade, was defending one of her "friends" by picking up a stick and whacking a boy across his face resulting in a cut on his cheek. I was horrified when mom called me because she is the last one of my children I would expect to do this. Mom was called into the principles office, and after that she verbally spanked my daughter for what she did. She told her about possibly being expelled, legal actions the other parents might take against her (mom) and that if there was a boy walking behind her "friend" teasing her, BACK OFF AND LET HER DEAL WITH IT AND MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS! I subscribe to the idea that you only stick up for your friend if they're your best, very close friend and you know them well enough that they wouldn't have asked for this type of trouble AND they reciprocate the same loyalty back to you AND nothing illegal was done. Every one else can just deal with it. With that, she (daughter) couldn't answer if her "friend" would reciprocate.

Well, thankfully her school didn't subscribe to zero policy and the other parents seemed pretty level-headed about this. But there was one other important factor, the school principal knew that mom was actively involved with her children so he knew that once he told her, that child's misbehavior would be dealt with.

[bcguy]

yes, was bullied by kids.

I could have punched back at a kid who punched me in the stomach in middle school. I did not told the teacher, she said I called him stupid for pushing on the door hard, when I was on the other side and got hit by it.

Another door I was about to open, came flying open by another kid who kicked it with his foot and slammed into me. That kid apologized proficiently. Nose bleeding and I did not blame him angerly after all, he did not see anyone on the other side of the door.

But was ticks me off, was I was sitting on a ski school buss heading to the slopes, and high school girl started to hit me at random times on the bus. The guys, sitting three rows in the back of the buss cheered each time she hit me. What do I do? hit back and have 3-5 guys jump me?

Student puts a bannan on my head yea, yea, laugh at it while I was sitting on the buss. I tossed it back at him. He then grabs me and pushes me into the seat ready to through a fist at me, while one of my feet, was ready to slam into his face "got done doing 450bls with my legs that day and warned him" He let go and chilled out. BTW, kid was a pot head.

Kids will always bully other kids but..I put part of that blame on the parents.

Here is a REAL true story of a kid who bullied both girls and guys in highschoool. I went to my 20th high school reunion and met one of the other brothers of the same family whos brother bullied those kids all those years before. I asked him how he is doing and asked about his brother John how he is doing. He said he is doing okay but told me, he is really angry because, all these students who were at the class reunion, were asking him "why did you bully me in high school, I never did anything wrong with you". The students mistaken Dave for his brother John because his name take he was using was only written with his last name only.

BTW, I even remember in high school asking the other sisters and brothers about john reported bulling of other students. They were discussed and mad at there brother. BTW, johns sister and brothers were nice :)

Edited September 14, 2012 by bcguy

[mirkwood]

I've told my son he is free to defend himself and will have my complete support...as long as he did not start things.

If it ever happens and it ends up involving school officials, I'm sure they will not like having a conversation about the charges I will have the local prosecutors office file against the school officials along with the other student. I may even choose to have that meeting while I'm wearing my uniform to hammer home the point.

[slamjet]

OOoooo... Please make sure to post that on YouTube! That has got to be must-watch TV

[MsMagnolia]

I appreciate all the horror stories that have happened to your children because of zero tolerance. I also agree that punishing someone for defending themselves is not the best approach. The fact of the matter is zero tolerance came into being because of the inability of teachers to do ANYTHING to control a student other than "talking to them". Today we live in a litigious society in which in a teacher ever laid a hand on student to stop an altercation they would be brought up on assault charges. We also have fewer teachers and more students per classroom. Some parents could care less what their children do at school. They only bring them because the law says they have to. It is sadly the world we live in. I luckily teach 5 and 6 year olds but I have been hit, kicked, spit on, bitten, etc... I have also been told that as a teacher it is my responsibility to teach the child right from wrong. Again, this is the world we live in. I am not saying I totally agree with zero tolerance. I am just trying to show you the other side.

Just my thoughts, Mags

[Guest]

anatess it sounds like it's time to stop letting your son call the shots and have a chat with someone in charge.

Not yet. Don't worry, I'm sitting on top of this with very very keen eyes. I don't know if all mothers have this instinct but I am quite confident that I can look at my kids' face and instinctively know when it's time to "send in the marines".

[ClickyClack]

My son has been suspended twice for fighting. He never initiated the violence, as witnesses attested to. There are two rules I teach my son; We never hit someone first, and #2 if you are hit then you swing until there is NO resistance in the other individual.

I had to petition teachers to allow him to remain a member of the NHS, and was very lucky to succeed.

Zero tolerance rules should have never been introduced to our school systems, of course parents and teachers should still be allowed to discipline kids as well.

I'm in that camp.

I've told my son three things:

1. If he legitimately needs to defend himself or someone else, he should make sure that he comes out the winner.

2. If it was legitimate defense, I will ALWAYS be there to back him up, so he doesn't need to worry about consequences.

3. If it is NOT legitimate defense, then #2 will not apply.

[kathysmike]

I apoligize if my OP got jumbled. I have been a bit suprised by some of the responses, while I may not agree with the idea of zero tolorence rules I teach my son that 100% compliacne to the rules is expected, we may not agree with the rule or regulation, but as long as we are asked to "live" or "conform" to the policy,it is our duty to follow it and see that our children are taught to obey. Have we not been taught that obedience is better than sacrifice?

Rules have been put in place with the goal of protection for all, if followed by all, we are not above those rules which are designed to be obeyed for protection.

Another point brought out in these responces that I have given thought to could be summed as Ihave taught my son never to strike or hit a girl under any circumstance. That is a great truth could not agree more with the message, however the young girls are well aware of this teaching, and seem to think it is fun or a real kick to torment the good LDS Boys they know who will not strike out at them. This never hit a girl needs to be taught with a compainion teaching of resoect for everyone by everyone do not torment, any other child of God, for any reason.

Having been Bullied, Tormented, through Jr. High and High School I am well aware of th pain and anguish it can cause, while in HS I could not even do yard work for fear of the bully driving by and doing his thing while I was in my own yard. I can not share how I overcame the effects of this except through prayer and gaining what can only be explained as an ability to love those who despitfuly used me, its not easy but it can be done. Specific instruction can not be given other than to turn it over to out Lord and Saviour.

The idea of School Vouchers was mentioned, a great idea on its surfface. The school distric my son is in has a program called school of choice enrollment is open to any student from any distric in the county, thus we have stundents from districts suchs Detroit, Inkster, Redford, etc these students have come from enviorments of fear and and violence drugs and such. Since these elements have been intrudced into our schools rules need to be strict and enforced with an unquestioning hand to maiimtain any order in the shools.

[Guest]

I apoligize if my OP got jumbled. I have been a bit suprised by some of the responses, while I may not agree with the idea of zero tolorence rules I teach my son that 100% compliacne to the rules is expected, we may not agree with the rule or regulation, but as long as we are asked to "live" or "conform" to the policy,it is our duty to follow it and see that our children are taught to obey. Have we not been taught that obedience is better than sacrifice?

Rules have been put in place with the goal of protection for all, if followed by all, we are not above those rules which are designed to be obeyed for protection.

Another point brought out in these responces that I have given thought to could be summed as Ihave taught my son never to strike or hit a girl under any circumstance. That is a great truth could not agree more with the message, however the young girls are well aware of this teaching, and seem to think it is fun or a real kick to torment the good LDS Boys they know who will not strike out at them. This never hit a girl needs to be taught with a compainion teaching of resoect for everyone by everyone do not torment, any other child of God, for any reason.

Having been Bullied, Tormented, through Jr. High and High School I am well aware of th pain and anguish it can cause, while in HS I could not even do yard work for fear of the bully driving by and doing his thing while I was in my own yard. I can not share how I overcame the effects of this except through prayer and gaining what can only be explained as an ability to love those who despitfuly used me, its not easy but it can be done. Specific instruction can not be given other than to turn it over to out Lord and Saviour.

The idea of School Vouchers was mentioned, a great idea on its surfface. The school distric my son is in has a program called school of choice enrollment is open to any student from any distric in the county, thus we have stundents from districts suchs Detroit, Inkster, Redford, etc these students have come from enviorments of fear and and violence drugs and such. Since these elements have been intrudced into our schools rules need to be strict and enforced with an unquestioning hand to maiimtain any order in the shools.

If rules are to be followed 100%, then America would still be British and blacks would still be slaves. There are good rules and there are bad rules. You avoid living under the oppression of bad rules. But if it can't be avoided, you can go on a peaceful protest. Peaceful protest does not mean that you stand in rebellion of the existing rule by simply not following it. Rather, you do what you know is right and face the consequences of breaking the rule. Joseph Smith stood in rebellion of Missouri law and gave his life for it.

There are 2 ways to deal with a bully - 1.) Cower in fear. 2.) Make the bully fear you.

You showed a perfect example with the girls kicking the boys because they know boys are taught not to fight back. Not fighting back does not stop a bully. And not stopping a bully only has one outcome - he/she will bully many people. It takes one person to stand up to the bully regardless of the consequences of zero tolerance to let them know his bully behavior will not be tolerated and he will face consequences.

Now, the issue here is not about rule breaking, of course. The issue here is we have a difference in opinion on whether zero tolerance is a good rule or a bad rule. In my opinion it is a bad rule. If things are so bad in your school, you don't solve it by zero tolerance just like if the murder rate in Chicago is so bad, you don't make a law that says, if you ever get in a fight in Chicago, all participants are going to jail. It is a very silly rule that is in place simply because teachers and administrations do not want to be responsible for their decisions.

Edited September 15, 2012 by anatess

[Echo2002]

I liked the good old days when the teacher took you in the coat closet. I went to elementary school in a 100 year old building and the walls were thin. You could hear the whack of wood hitting flesh. It struck fear in all of us. I don't think I ever saw a kid disrespect a teacher.

Those were the days also when kids feared the punishment they were going to get at home more than what the teacher was going to give them. It's not like that anymore.

I think zero tolerance began in my Junior or Senior year of high school. I agree, it is ridiculous. In my opinion, schools are so big now that they are the equivalent to prisons. If your kid is being bullied and doesn't stick up for him/herself then it's only going to get worse.

[slamjet]

Pretty much sums up the paralysis of common sense.

[Just_A_Guy]

If, for some insane reason he has to go to that school, I will give him license to fight back and I'll be saving $375 right now and at the same time actively working in the school system to put some sense into that Administration.

I cannot believe the school has the authority to administratively fine a student for fighting. If, as the OP says, the fight includes a trip to the police station and a ticket, that's probably because they're saying they'll press criminal charges and your kid's going to wind up with an assault and/or battery on his record.

You don't just accept those tickets and pay them. You lawyer up and take your kid to juvenile court with a self defense claim, make the dipweeds try and prove it, laugh when the prosecution's star witnesses don't show up (or does show up, and refuses to testify on grounds that doing so may incriminate him as well), and then turn around and sue the school district for abuse of process and report the administrative staff to DCFS for fostering an unsafe environment for children.

(I'm a bit cranky this morning, if you haven't noticed.)

Edited September 15, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[slamjet]

Man, JAG, who stomped in your cheerios this morning

[kathysmike]

The results of the a/b charges have cut

the fights by a large numbers. The school had a large influx of stuedents from Detroit , redford, inkster all 3 districs with very heavy violent and gang infesteatedd student base. Theses students frst respose to any type of conflict was to thrown down into a all and all out fista cuff, resulting in injuries to one if not both parties, hence the impmplamation of thre current police of both active parties cuffed ticketed and charged. Therfe was a marked down turn in the number of fights oncre this policy was put in place. We personally witnessed only a couple sets of students being hulled away in the squad car while waiting to pick up our son.

Yes this rule of Zero Tolorfence is not the best, it has and is served the purpose of cutting down the number of physical confortations and physical injuries were cut down quite a bit.

The rule while vulgar and overall unfair, must students are well aware of it and are not willing to face the consenquences of breaking it. Those who chose to break it are the ones who break it no matter what the pentalies for doing so would be. Taking into account the school's demographics and other factors of the mixing of cultures of the districs the policy seems to be the most efective fo this particular situation.

Bruce, my son is one of two LDS members in this School, Sean the other member is a Senoir this year is 2 years ahead of him thier paths do not cross often, maybe in the hall or once durring lunch.

The biggest issuse I have with my son attending here is the lack of other LDS students he has conntac with through out his day, as he his very influencable follow the crowd type kid, I do my best to talk with him and show him the path he needs to follow, but so much of his day is out of my reach all I can do os pray exercise faith that he is exersing the correct decsion making skills have tried to teach him. Then be ready to loving correct in course varriatins.

[NeuroTypical]

but as long as we are asked to "live" or "conform" to the policy,it is our duty to follow it and see that our children are taught to obey. Have we not been taught that obedience is better than sacrifice?

I'm not sure what "obedience is better than sacrifice" means - that statement makes no sense to me. Should we be obedient to the laws and ordinances of the gospel? Yes. Being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law? Yes. Idiotic policies? Not necessarily, no. It's about risk and reward, willingness to jump through hoops to get something. Making choices and accepting consequences imposed by others.

School boards are NOT lawgivers. They are NOT magistrates or rulers or kings. (Although you don't have to look very hard to fine board members who think they are.)

Rules have been put in place with the goal of protection for all, if followed by all, we are not above those rules which are designed to be obeyed for protection.

Oh, that insidious, nefarious, tricksy word "if". So understated. So innocent looking. So easy to overlook. Kathysmike, you need to take a real close look at that word "if", and come to grips with how it took you out of reality to a fake world that doesn't exist. Of course rules are not followed by all. This whole thread is about what the good kids should do when the rulebreakers break the rules.

Specific instruction can not be given other than to turn it over to out Lord and Saviour.

I join the ranks of people who very much disagree on the strongest possible terms with this statement. Of course our Lord is a source to turn to. But He never expects us to fight our own battles? Ever? There is nothing to do ever besides turn stuff over to Him? Hogwash. Scripture and our own LDS history are full of accounts of righteous people putting things right through their own strength. Take an anti-nephi-lehi oath of peace if you want. But don't sit there and tell me that I'm doing it wrong by teaching my kids how to fight and protect themselves and others.

The idea of School Vouchers was mentioned, a great idea on its surfface. The school distric my son is in has a program called school of choice enrollment is open to any student from any distric in the county, thus we have stundents from districts suchs Detroit, Inkster, Redford, etc these students have come from enviorments of fear and and violence drugs and such. Since these elements have been intrudced into our schools rules need to be strict and enforced with an unquestioning hand to maiimtain any order in the shools.

Yeah - there's another word there - "need". Almost as bad as the word "if", but easier to spot. How about this: "You choice into our school and start trouble, that means you are choosing to choice yourself right back to where you came from." I think that's a fine alternative to your "need" and all it's hidden unjust assumptions. Edited September 16, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon