"God doesn't want you to be depressed"

[NeuroTypical]

1. When does agency no longer play a role when connected to brain chemistry?

2. What is the dividing point between a "Chronic Illness" verses a person who is choosing to act in accordance with their depression, despondency, or discouragement?

3. How is it determined that this person suffers from a chronic illness, verses a person suffering from sin?

4. How much do self-fulfilling prophecies play a role in a person chronic illness?

What a great list of important questions, Anddenex. I think we could all do to keep these questions (and the occasional lack of good answers) in mind when opining about what we or another person should and shouldn't do or try or be.

[Anddenex]

Before I give you my opinion on your questions, I have a couple questions for you. When you say "majored in" do you mean that you are still in school then? You haven't graduated yet? Just curious, because I would think that your understanding would be different after graduation then before you begin, that is the point right?

I graduated from BYU in 2004. Thus, since my graduation, and during my schooling, none of these questions have been answered.

What I have discovered is that it appears a diagnosis, often times is dependent upon the therapist. Thus stems my question, how is a chronic illness (out of the control of the person) determined verses a depression, or despondency which is fully in control of the individual.

However what LM and I object to is the idea that being happy is something you just need to set your mind to, follow the Savior etc. Is THAT what you are agreeing to? I mean do you believe that if we just set our mind to it we can be happy? Your post makes me think this is the case, but I want to clarify in case I have misunderstood you.

Let me provide two answers to this question and some background so you can also understand why these debates intrigue me.

1. Do I believe in chronic illness and that some people suffer from this? Yes.

2. Do I believe some may feel a chronic illness is out of their control, when it isn't? Yes.

My mother suffered from Postpartum depression. I have always found her words to be insightful to me growing up when she explained this time in her life.

"Andrew, every emotion, every feeling I felt was 100% real. However, it wasn't until I decided to be happy, that I the next day was happy. I haven't looked back since then."

I have another family member who has taken the opposite point of view, and is still suffering from depression. I would say, this individual has taken a text book explanation for the depression.

As mentioned at the end of my post, my PB provides me with a specific promise by which I would fall inline with my mother's words, verses this other family members.

[Vort]

We conform to expectations, and doctors see what they are conditioned to see.

I have not struggled with depression, so I cannot speak directly to that point. But I have struggled with sleep apnea, the effects of which caused personality changes and damaged my work and career.

Yet when I went to the doctor about it, I was diagnosed (by two different physicians and a PhD psychologist) as "textbook" adult ADD. I was treated with psychoactive medication, including methamphetamine and Strattera [shudder], for months with no effect. The physicians figured I needed higher doses, so I took higher doses. It affected my sleep and sex life, but didn't ameliorate the problem. In desperation, I finally was recommended to and met with a psychiatrist (a medical doctor with special training in psychology) who was the area's leading expert on adult ADD. Forty-five minutes later, he informed me that I did not suffer from adult ADD and that in fact I did not fit any ADD profile.

Only then did I quit the psychoactive ADD drugs and eventually find out I had sleep apnea.

The point is, people see what they're looking for, even smart and highly trained people. When your tool is a hammer, everything tends to look like a nail. And we do what we are told and see what we expect to see. I figured I was an adult ADD guy, because I had been assured I was. I could even list off the symptoms that supposedly proved the point. But it was all false.

Anddenex's ideas make sense to me. If we expect to be unhappy, if we think we're unhappy, if we see ourselves as depressed (or of a depressive personality type), we may well live up to that billing. In some cases, maybe we really do just need to decide to be happy. Perhaps not all cases of depression or unhappiness are like that, but Anddenex's mother's experience demonstrates that at least some are.

[Irishcolleen]

I think there are no easy answers for depression and should a Christian of any denomination be depressed. Sometimes people forget that our brain is part of our body and as such, prone to illness. When depression is an illness it needs to be treated.

On the other hand, there are times when our thinking can be un-Godly, which can make us have feelings of depression. We can become depressed when we don't forgive and become bitter. We can also become anxious and depressed when we have sin we haven't confessed and repented for.

It is important to follow God's Word in Psalm 139:23-24, "Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." If you've examined your heart and found sin that's causing the pain, deal with it. If there is no sin that accounts for the pain, assume it is medical and treat it as such.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Anddenex, thanks for your responses to my questions, it is helpful to understand a little more where you are coming from.

My issue is PTSD, Dissociation (I just want to note for all reading...that dissociation occurs on a spectrum from daydreaming which is normal and happens to everyone, to dissociative identity disorder which is on the other side of the spectrum, with various degrees of severity inbetween. For the purposes of this thread it is sufficient to know that my dissociation is on the "disorder" side of the spectum.) and depression (though I do not think it is chemical, but situational from the child abuse).

1. When does agency no longer play a role when connected to brain chemistry?

Sis. Cheiko Okazaki gave a wonderful talk called Healing From Sexual Abuse and she said this about agency: "Please recognize and realize that someone who has been sexually abused has been deprived of part of her or his free agency. The individual cannot get it back except through the long and difficult process of healing from sexual abuse."

I was so grateful to read that because that is exactly how I feel. Because of the PTSD, and Dissociation, I do not have the contol of my mind that I would like to. BUT I have not given up, I am fighting to get back what was taken from me.

2. What is the dividing point between a "Chronic Illness" verses a person who is choosing to act in accordance with their depression, despondency, or discouragement?

I think this is an interesting question that can reallly be answered between each indivvidual and the Lord. I don't think anyone would say that they are choosing to act in accordance with their depression. And yet, I am certain that some would assume such...but does that person have the right to judge?

One might even assume that they understand because they have experienced depression. I think that person does have a better chance of understanding, but it is still an individual thing. Once on a message board someone was giving me the "all you need is forgiveness and the Atonement" speech. She was certain she knew what I needed because she had been sexually abused. But I submit that there is a difference between someone who was molested once by a family friend and someone who is molested for years by a family member. . .both are horrific and damaging, but clearly one will take more time to heal than the other.

3. How is it determined that this person suffers from a chronic illness, verses a person suffering from sin?

I definately suffer because of sin...someone else's sin against me. I can't speak for other kinds of mental illness.

4. How much do self-fulfilling prophecies play a role in a person chronic illness?

In my case, I am continually surprised by the effects of PTSD and Dissociation, so no I do not consider it self-fulfilling prophecy. For example, I am triggered by things that I did not anticipate...like scissors with black metal handles...oi ve.

"And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity."

Yes, definately my despair comes from iniquity, but it wasn't my iniquity, it was someone else's.

Here is a quote from Sis. Okazki that sums up what I am trying to say quite well (I highly recommend her entire talk, Healing from Sexual Abuse):

The sixth message I want to share is that healing from sexual abuse is a very long and very painful process. According to one study that included LDS women, being able to reach the ultimate step of forgiving the perpetrator and moving on took an average of fifteen years. Many women and men who have been sexually abused respond in ways that they cannot control, with irrational fears and compulsive behaviors, even in repeated transgressions. Very often they are so filled with guilt and self-loathing that repentance seems impossible for them.

Let me borrow an image from a sensitive bishop who works hard to help members of his ward who have been sexually abused. He urges leaders, family, and friends to realize that their loved one, a ward member, has been injured, just as if he or she had broken a leg that had never been set properly. Even though the person can walk and may have forgotten about the injury, true healing and true strength cannot return until the injury is acknowledged, the bone rebroken, and the leg set correctly.

Please recognize and realize that someone who has been sexually abused has been deprived of part of her or his free agency. The individual cannot get it back except through the long and difficult process of healing from sexual abuse. If you are willing to make a commitment to be a friend during this process, make a long-term commitment. Often when we acknowledge a problem, we want it fixed quickly. We think a few visits to a therapist, a few priesthood blessings, a few tears shed, a few hugs should make everything all right. Not so.

The process of healing may be more complex than I realize, different for each survivor, but let me share with you again what my friend says: “It is hard to answer questions that one hasn’t been asked, to explain to people who already think they know, to talk to people who do not talk to you. It is especially hard when their talking to you is an attempt to make the subject go away. I want it to go away, too. I thought it would go away after I woke up screaming in the night, or after it made me so afraid I would throw up over and over, or after I’d recovered the three-year-old and the six-year-old parts of myself, or after I wrote the letter to my father, or after, or after–the pain just ebbs and flows. I am in so much pain that I will do anything to pass through this as efficiently as possible.

A lake cannot repent of its pollutants; it can only submit to being dredged and flushed of its debris and poisons. I am learning that the pain is not an end in itself, but it leads me to what I am to learn, and with each lesson, I get more of my life back.”

My patriarchal blessing says three times that I will have "many trials and tribulations".

I am not saying that this is something I must live with forever. I am working very hard to heal. I go to therapy twice a week, and I meet with my Bishop twice a month. I journal, do art therapy, and reading on my own.

What I am saying is that healing takes time. I hope that those around me will not judge and think that they know better than I (and the Lord) when my healing should be complete.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1. Do I believe in chronic illness and that some people suffer from this? Yes.

2. Do I believe some may feel a chronic illness is out of their control, when it isn't? Yes.

Just to be clear, I agree with you on this, both are possible.

[Irishcolleen]

LiterateParakeet,

I am so sorry that you were hurt and sinned against in such a horrible way by people who were supposed to love and care for you. I will be praying for your complete healing.

[NeuroTypical]

A wise shrink once likened antidepression meds to sunscreen. People came into his office complaining about sunburn, and tell him all the stupid things they'd done to get burned. And he'd sit there and think "You wouldn't need these pills if you'd just stay out of the stupid sun!" Then there were others who just burned when exposed to a simple lightbulb, and needed the sunscreen to be able to do normal everyday things. Or they'd need their burn treated, and after it healed they didn't need anything any more.

I was diagnosed (by two different physicians and a PhD psychologist) as "textbook" adult ADD. I was treated with psychoactive medication, including methamphetamine and Strattera [shudder], for months with no effect.

Hi five to Vort - I was misdiagnosed in the '90's and placed on Adderall. But taking legal speed did indeed have an effect on me. I remember sitting at work, just thrilled beyond belief that I was ANWERING EMAIL!!! Oh my heck - I just clicked send! I'm a wonderful person who is experiencing total overflowing fulfillment in life! Somewhere in the back of my mind, the rational part was saying "Don't you think it's a bit odd to be this excited about answering email?"

My wife, on the other hand, found Adderall did something incredibly beneficial. Off her meds, it was like living with a mannequin. No matter what facial expression was there, the eyes were just painted on, with little or nothing behind them. On the med, it was like living with a human who had hopes and dreams and emotions and goals. She spoke of it as coming up out of dark murky depths into the sunlight where all the normal people were walking around, and realizing she was alive too. Not particularly happy, not particularly energetic or capable, but at least able to experience reality, hold down a job and a relationship if she fights hard enough.

So then she goes to church and hears about how God doesn't want her to be depressed. I trust y'all can appreciate the need to have a way to interpret and respond to such comments.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Anddenex]

Anddenex, thanks for your responses to my questions, it is helpful to understand a little more where you are coming from.

Because of the PTSD, and Dissociation, I do not have the contol of my mind that I would like to. BUT I have not given up, I am fighting to get back what was taken from me.

I think this is an interesting question that can reallly be answered between each indivvidual and the Lord... And yet, I am certain that some would assume such...but does that person have the right to judge?

"And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity."

I am working very hard to heal.

What I am saying is that healing takes time. I hope that those around me will not judge and think that they know better than I (and the Lord) when my healing should be complete.

I am sorry, that another person's iniquity has had such an impact on your mental and emotional well being.

I am glad to hear that you have not given up, and keep on fighting. We only loose in this life when we officially give up.

To be clear, while I was attending BYU, I was fully under the impression ALL illnesses were a matter of choice, and mental perspective. It wasn't until one missionary I was trying to help, while working as a teacher at the MTC, changed my perspective. I could seriously recognize that this young man was suffering from a chronic illness he could not control. Whether this stemmed from nurture or nature, I won't even begin to make a judgement call.

This is where my questions stems, as pertaining to a "chronic illness" verses a depression one can change.

I would agree that a person's mental capacity and strength is definitely between the Lord and the individual, however I would also add, a faithful steward who judges by the spirit is able to discern a person's well being also.

I won't even begin to pretend I understand your feelings, because there is one attribute I can't stand within people is an empathetic pretender.

I agree, healing takes time for individuals differently. What I am currently struggling with mentally, my wife is able to shrug it off and move forward. It bears no weight in her mind, but in my mind I feel like I have been hit with a two ton heavy thing.

Best wishes LiterateParakeet.

[Anddenex]

Are these rhetorical questions?

It is best said they were open questions.

I'm thinking you mean, when does an action become a result of brain chemistry instead of agency...

When my Spirit knows it is wrong, actively tries to fight it, yet the body does something entirely different. This is exactly how it feels: When I get in this rage, I feel like my "sane self" is above my head, looking down at myself and saying, "Who is this monster?".

To provide more insight to my questions. When I was younger I would have been easily diagnosed as ADHD. One of my teachers told my parents that I needed to be put on ritalin, to calm my energetic emotions and disturbances in class.

My parents disagreed, thankfully, and they and the teacher decided a program for me. Each day I came home with a "smiley face", a "straight face", or a "frowny face."

My reward, was going out to ice-cream with my dad if I successfully earned 10 "Smiley faces" in a row. Straight face, nothing. If I came home with a frowny face, well, the belt became acquainted with my back end.

Although, I don't agree with the method my father used for frowny faces, however, I assure you I never came home with two frowny faces in a row.

I mean, looking back, I can kinda see that maybe I lost control because I knew it's harder to control at that time. I don't know.

This statement is at the heart of my question #2

"2. What is the dividing point between a "Chronic Illness" verses a person who is choosing to act in accordance with their depression, despondency, or discouragement?"

The reason for my self-fulfilling prophecy question is somewhat in connection with Vort's response and how many therapist diagnosed his condition incorrectly.

I also, while studying, remember how often I would be reading specific chronic illnesses and realized, how easily I fit into about 2-3 of them.

However, I wouldn't say I have any chronic illness, but I do have discouragement and despondency issues I face each day.

And hey, maybe you can help me!

Haha, that would only lead to trouble, and I mean trouble. I keep praying in my heart and everyday that my children overcome the weaknesses of their father.

[NeuroTypical]

On a completely irreverant tangent, does anyone know if this is true?

Maybe I'll take up biking...

[Guest]

It is best said they were open questions.

To provide more insight to my questions. When I was younger I would have been easily diagnosed as ADHD. One of my teachers told my parents that I needed to be put on ritalin, to calm my energetic emotions and disturbances in class.

My parents disagreed, thankfully, and they and the teacher decided a program for me. Each day I came home with a "smiley face", a "straight face", or a "frowny face."

My reward, was going out to ice-cream with my dad if I successfully earned 10 "Smiley faces" in a row. Straight face, nothing. If I came home with a frowny face, well, the belt became acquainted with my back end.

Although, I don't agree with the method my father used for frowny faces, however, I assure you I never came home with two frowny faces in a row.

I grew up in the Philippines. There's no such thing as ADHD or Depression or whatever in the Philippines at that time. Mental issues mean - you're bat crazy and need to be institutionalized.

So, my chemical imbalance was - plain and simply - treated as a discipline problem. She's the black sheep - and every family has one. So yes, I was no stranger to corporal punishment. But, I considered myself lucky because my aunt - who I later found has a less intense version of my problem - got put in a sack and hung up the tree. Me - I just got belted with the buckle end on a bare bottom... among other things. And I can assure you, it did not stop me from throwing a knife at my sister.

[Anddenex]

I grew up in the Philippines. There's no such thing as ADHD or Depression or whatever in the Philippines at that time. Mental issues mean - you're bat crazy and need to be institutionalized.

So, my chemical imbalance was - plain and simply - treated as a discipline problem. She's the black sheep - and every family has one. So yes, I was no stranger to corporal punishment. But, I considered myself lucky because my aunt - who I later found has a less intense version of my problem - got put in a sack and hung up the tree. Me - I just got belted with the buckle end on a bare bottom... among other things. And I can assure you, it did not stop me from throwing a knife at my sister.

Well, Anatess, it appears you and I have something in common. I think I threw eggs, a fork, a spoon, and a knife once at my older brother.

Fortunately, my knife throwing days have been long gone. :)

[Guest]

"2. What is the dividing point between a "Chronic Illness" verses a person who is choosing to act in accordance with their depression, despondency, or discouragement?"

The reason for my self-fulfilling prophecy question is somewhat in connection with Vort's response and how many therapist diagnosed his condition incorrectly.

I also, while studying, remember how often I would be reading specific chronic illnesses and realized, how easily I fit into about 2-3 of them.

Therapy in the Philippines was a social death sentence. I self-diagnosed myself in my teens. I prided myself with a strong brain and can't seem to grasp how somebody as strong-willed as me cannot control myself. So, I made it a scientific experiment of some kind and read up on everything I can about stuff - this was before the internet age, of course, and thesis/books/research on the matter were hard to come by. But, I got tons of info that pointed me in the direction of a chemical imbalance. I even charted moon phases and rage occurrences... hah!

I went to therapists when I got to the US because I got saddled by something the therapists called Seasonal Anxiety Disorder which is another crazy idiotic thing because... amazingly, I can't seem to physically function if I don't get enough sunlight! I mean - the Philippines is so close to the equator that it's sunshine everyday and twice on Monday. Ohio was gray compared. Anyway, that's when the therapists tried to pigeon hole my rage issues as well, because as crazy as this may seem, the lack of sunlight also made my rage more intense... they threw out some meaningless words like Manic Depressive... and I just look at them and think, "I'm paying them for this?". They prescribed meds which I didn't agree to. The only meds suggestion that I tried was the contraceptives (which was difficult for me to do being I was devout Catholic) to regulate my monthly flow so I can at least predict when I have to "brace myself"... but then, I quit that too because it was wrecking havoc to my system. But yeah, I got the sun-lamp - which was the one great thing that actually worked so I can get rid of the constant physical and mental fatigue that came with American winters and made me feel normal again.

But yeah, if I haven't been studying myself for a long while before I met the therapists, I probably would have just taken them at their word on it. They sounded like they knew what they were talking about. Except they didn't really know ME.

[C_T_R]

:) Unsure on the motorcycle thing, loudmouth. But if you substantiate it, let me know!

In my experience there seem to be two types of people in the world: those that either have, or know someone well enough to grasp what mental illness is, and those that don't. Having grown up in a home with family members who've struggled with serious mental health issues, I've seen and experienced first hand how ignorant members of the church can be, and non-members alike. I think it's a pretty obvious comment if he's not referring to people who actually.. yanno.. deal with depression. Of course God wants you to be happy, but the happiness isn't a feigned thing.. ugh, anyway.

Let's talk about Jesus Christ for a minute. Isaiah chapter 53 paints a real picture of the Prince of peace:

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

He was a man of sorrows; acquainted with grief. Can't you just sense that.. anyone that's experienced depression and rejection? Anyone that's been insinuated as being in disfavor with God because of their trials? And this that He might perfectly know how to succor all of us.

I read the book you mentioned in your OP years ago and from what I recall it was really good. I admire your wife for shrugging it off, but I can empathize why it stuck with you.. I really can.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-9gRL8nqFq4wtCS9k4fmelh3m3OdLh5eoa8KMYnLpdGcMMScz

[Misshalfway]

I think it's important to point out that depression is not always clinical. Like when someone is mourning a loss. Depression is sometimes THE appropriate response to certain life events. Feeling depression is part of how the brain heals. It wouldn't be healthy to suppress such a process. People who do usually end up with pathology. So add this additional "amen" to banning blanket statements about human emotional states.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I agree, healing takes time for individuals differently. What I am currently struggling with mentally, my wife is able to shrug it off and move forward. It bears no weight in her mind, but in my mind I feel like I have been hit with a two ton heavy thing.

Best wishes LiterateParakeet.

Sorry for the delay in replying, but one of the devices I use to access the Internet has issues with this site, and at times that is my only internet access. :)

I appreciated your whole reply, I just clipped this part to say thank you, and I am sorry for your two-ton heavy thing.

Today I felt a lot of strength from rereading Elder Bednar's talk from the April Ensign about the Atonement. I think fits in well with this topic.

The Atonement and the Journey of Mortality - Ensign Apr. 2012 - ensign

Here is a quote from the article:

I suspect that many Church members are much more familiar with the nature of the redeeming and cleansing power of the Atonement than they are with the strengthening and enabling power. . .

Nephi is an example of one who knew, understood, and relied upon the enabling power of the Savior. Recall that the sons of Lehi had returned to Jerusalem to enlist Ishmael and his household in their cause. Laman and others in the party traveling with Nephi from Jerusalem back to the wilderness rebelled, and Nephi exhorted his brethren to have faith in the Lord. It was at this point in their journey that Nephi’s brothers bound him with cords and planned his destruction. Please note Nephi’s prayer: “O Lord, according to my faith which is in thee, wilt thou deliver me from the hands of my brethren; yea, even give me strength that I may burst these bands with which I am bound” (1 Nephi 7:17; emphasis added).

Do you know what I likely would have prayed for if I had been tied up by my brothers? “Please get me out of this mess NOW!” It is especially interesting to me that Nephi did not pray to have his circumstances changed. Rather, he prayed for the strength to change his circumstances. And I believe he prayed in this manner precisely because he knew, understood, and had experienced the enabling power of the Atonement.

I do not think the bands with which Nephi was bound just magically fell from his hands and wrists. Rather, I suspect he was blessed with both persistence and personal strength beyond his natural capacity, that he then “in the strength of the Lord” (Mosiah 9:17) worked and twisted and tugged on the cords, and ultimately and literally was enabled to break the bands.

Notice that last part, the bands did not magically fall from Nephi's wrists, he still had to do the hard work, but the Atonement gave him strength to do it. I can liken this to my own life in that I need to go to therapy, and face my terrors, but the Atonement can give me strength to do that.

Edited September 24, 2012 by LiterateParakeet
typo

[Anddenex]

Sorry for the delay in replying, but one of the devices I use to access the Internet has issues with this site, and at times that is my only internet access. :)

I appreciated your whole reply, I just clipped this part to say thank you, and I am sorry for your two-ton heavy thing.

Today I felt a lot of strength from rereading Elder Bednar's talk from the April Ensign about the Atonement. I think fits in well with this topic.

The Atonement and the Journey of Mortality - Ensign Apr. 2012 - ensign

Here is a quote from the article:

Notice that last part, the bands did not magically fall from Nephi's wrists, he still had to do the hard work, but the Atonement gave him strength to do it. I can liken this to my own life in that I need to go to therapy, and face my terrors, but the Atonement can give me strength to do that.

I don't remember this talk. Thank you, I will have need to read it.

[Seminarysnoozer]

"God doesn't want you to be depressed." Yeah, that's an exact quote, preached over the pulpit by our Stake representative last Sunday.

His overall talk was good and relevant and wonderful to most people out there. He started his talk by mentioning the existence of people with legitimate mental illnesses. I was mostly edified by his exposition on what happiness is and isn't, where it comes from, and how to obtain it. I don't remember sustaining this particular brother, but I do, and I will the next time I get a chance. We all struggle with little undesirable bits of our background or culture expressing themselves when we open our mouths - I'm the last person to take offense at something like that - I'd be the worlds biggest hypocrite if I did.

But I was not edified by that false blanket statement that jumped out at us near the end. My wife, who has struggled for years and years with her brain to achieve some sort of relatively level playing field, just rolled her eyes and kept knitting. She's gotten so used to encountering people with this mindset, it doesn't even bug her that it's preached over the pulpit as truth. It still bugs me though.

Maybe I'll get a few more used copies of Elder Morrison's book Valley of Sorrow: A Layman's Guide to Understanding Mental Illness for Latter-Day Saints and hand them out to my bishopric and suggest they pass it along to the stake. That seemed to have a positive impact the last time I did it 8 years ago.

I think the more correct thing to say would be something along the lines of, 'God does not want us to have despair.'

I think, all the challenges we face in this life, God wants us to have, for some that means depression. Everyone has a thorn in the flesh that God does not necessarily plan for us to get rid of while here. But one concern is that we learn to take in the thorn as if it is really who we are. The moment the person says, "I am depressed, I was born this way and that is the way God made me so I will always be this way" then the battle is lost for sure. I think one of the key things to remember (and this is in part why I bring this up all the time) is that we are dual beings, we are the mature spirit self that was clean, pure, faithful and innocent upon entering this life and we are a corrupted physical being that is in a state of fallen from the perfected bodies made in the Garden of Eden. But the fallen body aspect of our dual being is not really who you are.

That goes in both directions. There are people who will claim their talents and abilities as if they "own" them and that they are not temporal stewardship. They will convince themselves, "I am an eloquent speaker, therefore my spirit was that way before" or "I am an intelligent physicist and therefore my spirit was good with those things before." I think that is the same trap that people that suffer with mental illness can fall into. They can start to believe that they are that way because the spirit self is being revealed. I think that trap is easier to fall into when one does not have a testimony of what it really means to be a dual being as David O. McKay explains.

What that becomes, in my opinion, is a love for carnal things. If the heart is into carnal things it shows God the nature of our spirit self. The trap though is that that applies to all influences from the body (brain) including mental illness. One can become so wrapped up in their mental illness that it becomes internalized into the spirit as a love of self (carnal self) or a hatred of self (carnal self). If one develops despair, in other words gives into the body and loses all hope even hope that there will be no redemption from our current state of being, that goes against what God wants for us. He wants us to prove our willingness to want to be with Him even if our own brain is making up messages that on occasion might pull in a different direction. This includes every vice and influence of the body, from fasting on Fast Sunday to depression to alcoholism to same sex attraction to yelling at someone who cuts you off on the freeway, etc.. Not that we have to overcome them ourselves but just the willingness, faith and hope in Christ for that. Even if the "battle"is "lost" while in this life, we are judged on what is in our hearts, not whether something was overcome or not. Christ is the finisher of our faith, we are not required to finish it for ourselves.

I know of no test that is designed for a stratified result that has the middle of the bell shape curve at 100%. The 'bell shape curve' is such that there is only one who gets 100% right.

[NeuroTypical]

I think the more correct thing to say would be something along the lines of, 'God does not want us to have despair.'

You may have nailed it.

Depression is a vague term that covers many causes, can be the result of a choice or a burden placed on us, can be temporary or permanent in this life. Despair is a choice - it embraces the concept of agency - it speaks to our reaction to burdens rather than the burdens themselves.

I think you've solved my problem for me. The next time I encounter an otherwise uplifting talk from a well-intentioned person who uses the "d" word in a way that sets me off, I'll see if I can substitute the other "d" word to see if it makes more sense.

Thank you.

[Shaunaquin]

True that, what "clinical" depression usually is is being sad for no reason. It is natural to go through this sadness if there is a reason. I have depression, I have days of sadness and low motivation for no reason, life is good, the sun is shining, I have every reason to be joyful, but the chemicals in my brain are off so I feel depressed. It triggers the wrong emotion for the outside stimuli. I also feel anger and or anxiety when there is no reason to. The brain is an interesting thing. If the chemistry is off it can trigger emotions that are not the correct response to the outside stumuli.

[Star_]

I think sin causes sorrow, not clinical depression.

I think depression is often overlooked because many people think they can relate. Everyone knows what it is like to be sad. Depression is much more than that.

It is great if some people can decide to not be unhappy anymore and never look back. That is definitely not the case for everyone. Help for depression is not one size fits all. Depression can range from being mild to severe.

In regards to post partum depression, many women need therapy and medication to treat it. Post partum depression can linger for months or years. It can be a very grave situation. If gone untreated it can lead to the mother harming her baby and herself.

I believe in anti-depressants. They can be extremely helpful.

I don't think depression is something someone always has full control over.

Depression can be very serious and should not be taken lightly. Suicide happens every day. Taking depression seriously could save a life.

[jayanna]

Whatever happened to "mourn with those that mourn" ?

I would like to give that leader the benefit of the doubt and say he must have been trying to convey the talk mentioned by Elder Bednar, and a message that a Seventy shared with us at Stake Conference. You know sometimes our leaders are asked to speak on certain things. The Seventy said that we should have joy in our afflictions. He used an example from the NT, I think it was about Paul.

When he was saying it, I couldn't help but look straight at a sister from my ward (I was sitting in the choir so could see everybody) and thinking that it was a hard thing to hear when she has been struggling for so long with cancer and had to wear a mask to be there. I don't know if she has been joyful in her affliction or not, but I think he could have been a bit more tactful, or maybe the message he was trying to get across was that this is the plan of happiness...not that we will have happiness now, because we are not promised that...but we will have happiness later if we will have courage to endure to the end. That message conveys the great love that the Lord has for us, and His desire to have us join Him once again.

Maybe that is what your leader was trying to convey. Which, for me, explains it, because, you know, they are not chosen because of their amazing speaking ability (Moses ) but rather, because of their amazing ability to listen and obey.