Forgiveness and the teaching, "Men can change"

[Misshalfway]

How do women prefer to be corrected?

Ok. Do unto others....

But that still doesn't answer my question.

[Vort]

Sorry, which question?

[Misshalfway]

Sorry....About how women in the RS emasculate men.

This is what I said to you in my last post...

I would agree that such a critical, perfectionistic way would be damaging to a man's sense of self. But I'd say that such is damaging to anyone! I guess I'm still missing what specifically makes this an emasculating behavior. I guess I can see how it could be.....

Edited October 8, 2012 by Misshalfway

[trubludru]

Can we expect that from the fathers and other men, as well?

Granted, I was only baptized a year ago, so much of my experience with men has been with men not of the church, but...even in my time in the church, I find men making excuses...."Men are visual, we can't help it"..."That's just the way men are"...and on and on.

Can't help myself and only in a good natured way

It is the way men are, we are visual creatures and enjoy looking at women....that doesn't mean we aren't capable of learning not to gawk or stare or otherwise staying within appropriate respectful boundaries there are limits to boys will be boys (i.e. pornography is wrong any way you slice it). A well know rule of thumb known to many men who served missions as to appropriate levels of looking at a woman, "If you don't look once you aren't a man, if look twice you aren't a missionary." I think this issue is one that woman just won't understand and the facts of the matter are it really is part of what makes us men which isn't inherently bad, in fact it is probably a good thing.

To perhaps put it in perspective, it is not dissimilar to men being unable to understand why women will do something like wear a pair of horrendously uncomfortable shoes for hours and complain about it but still do it because "they look cute" or "they go with my outfit". We just don't understand.

[Vort]

Sorry....About how women in the RS emasculate men.

This is what I said to you in my last post...

Because it is done to men. You don't emasculate women.

[Misshalfway]

Because it is done to men. You don't emasculate women.

Ok.

I'm hoping Skippy comes back. I'd love to hear his thoughts on this.

[bytor2112]

Men can change. They change every day. Thank God for that, because without that, we all would be lost. So how do you keep in mind the view of the traitor and hateful or disloyal current or former Church member as someone who could be wonderful, admirable, even someone you would want to pattern yourself after?

By remembering that each of us live in glass houses and none of us should throw stones.

[Vort]

But what I'm hearing is that it can really be painful and damaging and women need to protect their men and sons by watching their tongues.

This is a matter of loyalty. I would never sit mute while some bozo ran his mouth off about how stupid/ridiculous/pathetic women were. I would let him know, and in no uncertain terms, that my wife, daughter, mother, sisters, nieces, and other beloved people were women and did not fit his stereotype.

What woman would listen to such drivel about men and sit silently?

If I might, how would men prefer to be corrected? If boys come to the church house unprepared, don't they have to deal with the fall out just like anyone who comes unprepared? If I teach math, and I say there is a quiz and dude A comes unprepared, am I damaging his manhood if I say "tough noogies. you should have studied."?

Let me turn the question around. When the Beehive class does an inadequate job of preparing a combined activity, are you okay with the young men's advisors (or the young men themselves) excoriating them for their poor work and for wasting everyone's time? When the Laurels walk in five minutes late to an activity after chatting outside beforehand, do you think it's acceptable for the young men's president to let them know just how impolite and selfish they are for having done so?

When a man treats a woman (especially a young woman) unkindly, it can damage the woman's self-perception and her ability to relate with men. When a woman treats a man (especially a young man) unkindly, what do you suppose the consequences are?

I guess this relates to my concern listed above. I feel like women are expected to protect men's feelings at all costs. But that renders us rather impotent, forgive the term.

So, then, to use your term, you must think that men are impotent, since they "are expected to protect [women's] feelings at [almost] all costs." Is that a fair assessment?

I freely admit I may be missing something here. Please explain to me what that is.

[MorningStar]

I read this and wanted to comment "amen" all over the place. :)

I think your first paragraph about girls keeping the boys in line hits home for me a lot. At least it's something I've experienced a great deal in the church and in the world. It feels like some men, sometimes, disown their power and responsibility either by making women angels or devils. If you do this to a woman, either way you have something to blame and it let's you off the hook.

In this way, I believe that men are emasculating themselves. And women are put in a really hard place. We can't make mistakes and we can't be perfect enough.

Maybe you remember what recording this would be. I was in seminary when we listened to a male motivational speaker talk about how boys "play at love to get sex" and "girls play at sex to get love". So not only is the message that boys only want sex, it was that girls don't really like sex. And boys don't really want love. It was quite depressing. There must have been some kind of good message he was presenting, but that didn't get through to me. What I got out of it was that girls sacrifice and have yucky sex to get love. Meanwhile, my friends were thinking they were abnormal because they were really interested in sex!

Again the message was that girls want something pure (love) and boys want something impure from us (sex). So the girls are angels who have to put up with these lusty boys. *sigh*

[MorningStar]

I have heard women complain plenty of times about their husbands, but I don't think I have ever heard women make negative comments in Relief Society about men except for this one time this sister asked us randomly what you are supposed to do if your husband yells at you a lot and we just sat there in awkward silence until someone got brave enough to say something.

The worst thing I ever heard was in our singles ward when a member of the bishopric blurted out during Gospel Doctrine, "Women are better than men! If it weren't for the priesthood, we would be good for nothing! Women are naturally more spiritual, patient, kind ..l....." He made this long list of our supposed attributes while a bunch of guys nodded in agreement, a few looked dismayed, the the girls' jaws dropped like, "How can you say that? If you believe that, why are you OK with it?"

All I can think is that men have been trying to make us feel better about not having the priesthood and assure us it's not because we are incapable, but it has been taken too far. I don't need a guy to insult himself so I feel better about my place in the church. And it doesn't make me feel better.

[Misshalfway]

This is a matter of loyalty. I would never sit mute while some bozo ran his mouth off about how stupid/ridiculous/pathetic women were. I would let him know, and in no uncertain terms, that my wife, daughter, mother, sisters, nieces, and other beloved people were women and did not fit his stereotype.

What woman would listen to such drivel about men and sit silently?

Of course its a matter of loyalty. In what part of my remarks do you think I champion or excuse such behavior?

And I must say I'm 42 and been an active member my whole life and I don't think I've ever had that experience in RS meetings. The other night I was at a party and a man was there without his wife. It was embarrassing and appalling the way he disparaged her. And I think everyone in the room felt uncomfortable. Including me.

Let me turn the question around. When the Beehive class does an inadequate job of preparing a combined activity, are you okay with the young men's advisors (or the young men themselves) excoriating them for their poor work and for wasting everyone's time? When the Laurels walk in five minutes late to an activity after chatting outside beforehand, do you think it's acceptable for the young men's president to let them know just how impolite and selfish they are for having done so?

When a man treats a woman (especially a young woman) unkindly, it can damage the woman's self-perception and her ability to relate with men. When a woman treats a man (especially a young man) unkindly, what do you suppose the consequences are?

I'm not quite sure what you are arguing with. I think....I think I made myself clear that such abuse would absolutely be damaging no matter who it was inflicted upon.

So, then, to use your term, you must think that men are impotent, since they "are expected to protect [women's] feelings at [almost] all costs." Is that a fair assessment?

I freely admit I may be missing something here. Please explain to me what that is.

No. I think you are missing my point completely. Again, I'm trying to understand what behaviors specifically emasculates men....behavior that apparently women in the church are doing regularly. And I'm really hoping to iron out some of my confusion as I try to understand what I think I see. You said, "being critical". And I've noted that. Thank you.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Misshalfway

[MorningStar]

Yes, I think the question is, what have Relief Society women done to create men who get bad grades, don't finish school, aren't responsible, etc.? It's certainly wrong to treat men disrespectfully, but it is society sending a message that we only need men for their sperm. Society has been trying to prove that a woman can do any job a man can do and now do it without him. The majority of RS women acknowledge that we need and want men. Countless times I have heard women express gratitude for their husbands, especially for making it possible for them to stay home with their kids. One friend's husband struggles with keeping a job and she blames it on the feminist movement. Not sure why exactly.

Another friend blames the feminist movement for her husband's attitude that there's no reason why she shouldn't work, asking her, "Don't you want to contribute to our family?" Feminists have taught that there is no value in keeping a nice home and raising children, but that is what my friend wants more than anything. She takes a lot of pride in her home and has worked their whole marriage. She did daycare while she had babies and never had time just to bond with them or take them to the beach during the summer because she always had a house full of kids. She can never get that time back. When she expresses these thoughts, her husband says, "I sure would like to quit my job too!"

[JudoMinja]

It is, however, at least a good picture of a leopard (as opposed to a jaguar or cheetah).

This made me laugh, because I remember attending a middle-school where the mascot was a leopard, but all our "official" pictures were of cheetahs. I pointed it out and people kept telling me, "No, that's a leopard". And I'd reply- "I KNOW what a leopard looks like, and THAT is not a leopard. The spots are wrong. The face is wrong. It has streaks under its eyes. And its too thin. That is a cheetah."

As to the original question about forgiving those who've wronged us and accepting the fact that they can change- I've had a few personal experiences with this, but my mom has been a shining example:

This invovles my older brother and his ex-wife. They both did many mean and spiteful things and made many terrible mistakes. They were both physically and verbally abusive toward one another. They were both adulterous. My brother was cruel, masochistic, and narcissistic. His wife was manipulative, controlling, tempermental, and dishonest. There's a lot of bad-blood between them, and quite a bit of ugliness. They were both excommunicated from the church. Currently, they are divorced and share a fifty-fifty custody arrangement with their kids.

My brother is remarried to a woman who joined the church thanks to seeing "The Miracle of Forgiveness" on his table and asking about it. However, my brother has not yet given up his bad habits of drinking and smoking, among other things, and taken the time to go through the repentance process with his bishop, and his new wife also drinks and smokes despite being baptised.

His ex-wife has repented, been rebaptised, has been called as a primary teacher, and attends the 12-step classes. She attends the same ward as myself and my parents. She and my mother had many clashes during the hardships of my brother's relationship and divorce, and I'm sure it took her quite a bit of courage when she recently asked me for help getting rides to church because she was having problems with her vehicle.

This request for help led to a discussion with my mother where we discovered that the vehicular problems stemmed from the fact that her father died in December. He had been in a nursing home and receiving governmental help, but everything in his name was now going to be repossessed. This meant that she and her mother were also going to be kicked out of their house and are living on nothing but her mother's social security check. My mom helped her get a car and look at apartments they would be able to afford on their meager income.

It was easy for my mother to forgive and overlook my brother's shortcomings, because her love for him leaves her always willing to help him out of the tight spots he makes for himself. It is harder for her to recognize when she needs to say "no" and show tough love than it is for her to forgive him. Forgiving the ex-wife though... I know that had to be hard. Many of the hurtful things that passed through the divorce were things targeted toward my mother, and I know she was very hurt. Yet she looked past all that, because she felt it was more important to be there for this fellow daughter-of-God and the mother of her grandchildren in her time of need than it was to hold on to hurt feelings.

[Misshalfway]

Great example, Judo.

[NightSG]

One other phrase that gets me is, “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks.” That may be true with dogs, but the last time I checked, I’m not a dog, or any other person I know.

It probably says something about me that one of the first things I thought of was the Man's Prayer from the Red Green Show.

[missionary0204]

I read through all of the comments so far and found the variation of discussion amusing.

My wife almost always tells me how she feels when she gets emotional in a "I'm hurt" way. This method crushes me and compels me to right any wrong doing on my part. I need this response from her. When I am not on track as the priesthood leader in our home, she reminds me. Serving as a missionary really helped me to accept criticism and change when change was needed. The gospel compels us to constantly strive to better ourselves. She is a rock to me (lower-case r).

The impression I got from the talk was one that called men to stand up and be better men. I felt as though men are being called to detach themselves from societies view of a man and be men of the Priesthood. Any man or woman who would seek to convince the Priesthood brethren that they are lesser men based on a social norm, then they are in the wrong. There was no implication to share the talk with the Relief Society women, but if any sisters support this ungodly view of the Priesthood Brethren, then correction may be needed. The talk is a call to Priesthood brethren to seperate themselves from the world. I believe it implied that society is altering the view of men in a negative way and men are allowing themselves to give into the natural man which includes everything from being selfish, idle, lazy, lustful, irresponsible, etc.

Someone mentioned that a leader said in church that women are better than men. There is no such doctrine found in any of the scriptures or revealed word. Men and women play different roles in the plan of salvation. Often pride creates arguments over whether this is fair or not. Life is not about being fair. Life is about eternal progression and so much more that applies to it. This is only our probationary state where we are experiencing the desires of the flesh and learning to control them and behave in God like ways so that we can become worthy to be as God is in the eternities. If mankind does not learn to bridle there passions, they will gain no such glory. Both men and women are equally important in this plan. Paul taught that the body must have all of its parts to funtion right. I know the reference is speaking of the church, but it goes beyond that. The Kingdom of God must have all of its essential parts to fulfil the Plan of Happiness.

Another comment was made about sex and how men do not want love but only want sex and women use sex to get love. This comment made me sad when I read it. For me, this is so far from the truth. The following comments will only be brief and cover a few of my incites. Many men feel a powerful bond through sex with the person they "LOVE." It does many good things for them. It relieves a chemical related to stress and helps them to relax and feel a close bond with their wife. In many cases, turn a man down to many times and he will not be able to control the frustrations inside. One might feel as though their wife does not love them, or wants to cause them pain and frustration, or is just completely nieve. I know men who have prayed to have God take away their sexual drive to relieve their pain or temptations. If they do not control their anger, they may even turn to pornogrphy or other women. On the flip side, some women are not interested in sex (for a man with high T levels (hormone), this sucks!!!) They may only want to be pampered and held. Well, communication and trying to learn to understand each other is key here. Three LDS marriage councelors that I know all say that a healthy sex life in a marriage is a good thing and very much needed. Men also have to learn to romance thier wives and not pester them all the time. One can even try commiting to making Monday, Wednesday, and Friday days where the man cannot ask for sex or make any implications. Only the wife can break this law on those days. Those days should be the days you touch each other the most (not sexually). At least the wife can relax on those three days and not push her husband away because she knows where this is leading :)

Sorry about that ramble, but the sex comment made me sad. Of course i can see how it would make it extremely hard for someone to show interest in a partner that is not honorable, respectful, or kind.

[Misshalfway]

As a side note, not every man wants sex. Many men struggle with low sex drive (amongst other problems that impact sex drive) and it's their wives who are sex starved left wondering why he doesn't want her.

I guess what I'm saying is that every couple is different and that we get told a lot of hoopla sometimes.

[skippy740]

I'm sorry, but I had forgotten about this thread!

Basically, we need men to be more like Heathcliff Huxtable and not Al Bundy. We also need women to be more like Clair Huxtable and not Peggy Bundy.

Just one example of how entertainment in society can engrain various traits to genders. Men are seen as klutzes and not as important in family - as portrayed on television. Women are seen as the ONLY brains behind the family.

It is my opinion that when one grows up in a divorced or single parent household, that television begins to tell you how the other parent would typically act, versus what real life is really like.

Men need to be noble, and women should respect it - despite what the media and entertainment industries would like to portray men. It was a wake up call to me as a man, and I think the message should be shared among women who might not have also received the message.

It seemed to hit home to me because I grew up with two younger brothers and my parents are still married (sometimes despite each other). Notice that I didn't grow up with any sisters. My soon-to-be ex-wife grew up with no siblings and her mother. Sometimes I wonder what she thinks marriage should be like on a daily basis, versus just what we hear and read about in the Ensign.

Edited October 21, 2012 by skippy740

[Misshalfway]

Trust me. Women want men to be noble. Problem is.....when we ask for that, we get told we are critical and that we are emasculating them.

What are we suppose to do? Tell men they are awesome when they are not? Or wait year after year placating them hoping they'll get it?

And Heck! I'll be Clair Huxtable. To be a mother AND have a career AND have a husband who isn't threatened by my smarts or my opinions or my weaknesses. To have a husband that didn't need me to dummy down or suppress my emotional nature? Wow! I'd do that any day.

[skippy740]

Problem is.....when we ask for that, we get told we are critical and that we are emasculating them.

The other problem is when men are told things by their wives, they don't want to do them because they want it to be THEIR idea... and not just "give in" to what their wives say. Men want a wife, not a mother. (Yes, I know it's about male ego here.)

And no, I don't have a solution to this conundrum. If I did, my marriage might've been better.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Trust me. Women want men to be noble. Problem is.....when we ask for that, we get told we are critical and that we are emasculating them.

What are we suppose to do? Tell men they are awesome when they are not? Or wait year after year placating them hoping they'll get it?

And Heck! I'll be Clair Huxtable. To be a mother AND have a career AND have a husband who isn't threatened by my smarts or my opinions or my weaknesses. To have a husband that didn't need me to dummy down or suppress my emotional nature? Wow! I'd do that any day.

I'll tell you what works for us but I think every couple is different. Right after Family Home evening, once a week, my husband and I sit down and go over a list of things related to family in various categories - financial, kids, schoolwork, housework, etc.. We both come to that sit-down with our categories on a piece of paper and we match them up. (Most often, I have more things written on my paper.) Then we work out the differences and that is the game plan for the week. Occasionally, we can't make them match or we have to leave it to "we'll see". But, this gives me a non-threatening way to share my "side" of what I see on a daily basis that maybe he doesn't, then we talk about it.

[Misshalfway]

I'll tell you what works for us but I think every couple is different. Right after Family Home evening, once a week, my husband and I sit down and go over a list of things related to family in various categories - financial, kids, schoolwork, housework, etc.. We both come to that sit-down with our categories on a piece of paper and we match them up. (Most often, I have more things written on my paper.) Then we work out the differences and that is the game plan for the week. Occasionally, we can't make them match or we have to leave it to "we'll see". But, this gives me a non-threatening way to share my "side" of what I see on a daily basis that maybe he doesn't, then we talk about it.

Yeah. I can see why that works for both of you. Sounds like you've been able to create safety so both voices are heard and considered. I think creating that safety takes efforts on both sides. You gotta watch what you say and how you say it, but you all have build tolerance for your spouses comments. If one or the other is out of balance, it's yuck.

[trubludru]

Trust me. Women want men to be noble. Problem is.....when we ask for that, we get told we are critical and that we are emasculating them.

What are we suppose to do? Tell men they are awesome when they are not? Or wait year after year placating them hoping they'll get it?

And Heck! I'll be Clair Huxtable. To be a mother AND have a career AND have a husband who isn't threatened by my smarts or my opinions or my weaknesses. To have a husband that didn't need me to dummy down or suppress my emotional nature? Wow! I'd do that any day.

Just to play devil's advocate, on this comment. Part of the problem in some relatonships or cultures may be women want men to be noble or areal man but then get upset when we aren't doing it right. See Cliff Huxtable trying to be the good man and fix things around the house and Clair not being comfortable letting him do it his way. So men can end up in situations where they are trying to do good things and be a good man but get told so often they are doing it wrong...not necessairily because they are wrong but because they are doing it different than a women would. So isn't there a certain logic to flaking out and not do anything because why go through the effort to try and do something if you are going to get criticized either way? Like I said, just playing devil's advocate.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Just to play devil's advocate, on this comment. Part of the problem in some relatonships or cultures may be women want men to be noble or areal man but then get upset when we aren't doing it right. See Cliff Huxtable trying to be the good man and fix things around the house and Clair not being comfortable letting him do it his way. So men can end up in situations where they are trying to do good things and be a good man but get told so often they are doing it wrong...not necessairily because they are wrong but because they are doing it different than a women would. So isn't there a certain logic to flaking out and not do anything because why go through the effort to try and do something if you are going to get criticized either way? Like I said, just playing devil's advocate.

I think part of the definition of being 'noble' is to do what is right regardless of what anyone says or who is looking. The old adage of "Sticks and stones may break my bones.... " has to be lived for the most part in a marriage too. Being easily offended is not noble. Having integrity is part of Nobility.

My husband does not let words hurt him, as I try to do the same but at the same time attentive to the spirit. A contentious spirit does not invite peace in the home and there can be no guidance by the Holy Ghost. That is something that both sides have to work on continuously.