Why shouldn't I have my name removed?

[Kawazu]

I just wanted to pop in and say that this has been one of the most, (surprisingly), inspirational conversations that I have read in at least four years of visiting LDS.net. Often, Christianity is portrayed as a formulaic system were generally good people are guaranteed reprieve from adversity. From my view, this is not the case. Good people may receive pile upon pile of trials, spanning decades. We don't get to see the 'grand design'. I wish we did; I wonder what it looks like?

In any case, I extend my thanks to the folks who have shared their personal experiences. I respect the original poster's feeling of lostness. It is a heavy burden with which I sincerely sympathize.

[Dark_Jedi]

I just wanted to pop in and say that this has been one of the most, (surprisingly), inspirational conversations that I have read in at least four years of visiting LDS.net. Often, Christianity is portrayed as a formulaic system were generally good people are guaranteed reprieve from adversity. From my view, this is not the case. Good people may receive pile upon pile of trials, spanning decades. We don't get to see the 'grand design'. I wish we did; I wonder what it looks like?

In any case, I extend my thanks to the folks who have shared their personal experiences. I respect the original poster's feeling of lostness. It is a heavy burden with which I sincerely sympathize.

I would agree. I expected and was prepared for more posts that offered little more than platitudes (you can figure out which those are, including two of the more recent ones). I do appreciate those who have offered their heartfelt thoughts and please know that I am reading and considering your thoughts.

For what it's worth, the whole "endure to the end" argument is moot. It goes along with the "test of faith" argument - in my view I failed the test of faith. Clearly I don't have the faith needed to endure - I even doubt the existence of a savior or a loving God. I am enduring this situation, not with faith, however. And I am alive - while not currently considering suicide, I did at one time early on consider that as a viable option. And yes, I was only acive for a relatively short time after this began (do the math, it was more than a year and during that year other things happened that I haven't shared to deepen the problem), however, I was active over 20 years prior to that. I don't suppose that counts.

[Kawazu]

How long can you be sure tests of faith are supposed to last? I take it you mean that you feel you failed because you feel you have given up. I always thought, if God chose to, He could suffer terrible things to happen to His children up until the aggrieved person had already passed into the afterlife. Additionally, Jesus is not supposed to give up on people even when they stop believing in Him, or themselves. It's kind of His trademark.

I thought the mainstay of the Christian blessings were supposed to come in the afterlife. The whole mortality thing is supposed to be rather…unpleasant.

[JudoMinja]

I've been thinking about this some more and reread the posts. I'd like to approach this again from a different direction. I'm going to focus on your question "Why would God (the LDS God) do this or allow this to happen?" We've discussed the need to not interfere with others agency and the "trial of faith", but I think we need to step even further back and evaluate God's plan and purpose.

You know the Plan of Salvation, but let's take a moment to really delve into it as it pertains to mortality. Everything we face in mortality has the ultimate purpose of our spiritual growth. His plan was devised so that we can be perfected, and just as the physical perfection of our bodies requires struggle- diet, exercise, etc- so our spiritual perfection requires struggle. And neither can be accomplished on your own. Someone bench-pressing, for example, needs a spotter. The one doing the lifting should continue to lift until the strain is so intense that they cannot complete the last repetition, and the spotter has to help put the bar back in place. You are trying to complete your last repetition without a spotter.

You've been feeling as though your spotter has pulled back, refusing to help you and leaving you to get crushed under a weight you can't handle. Hence your question- "Why would God do this?" This is where many would say the fault must lie somewhere with you, because like you've stated, God just wouldn't do that to someone. He never leaves us with or gives us burdens we cannot bear, right? But it's not quite that simple- The scriptures tell us that he has "prepared a way" that we may be "able" to bear our burdens. Specifically, the scripture most think of when referencing this is 1 Corinthians 10:13 "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it". And what is that way? What is that escape?

One thing that has been prepared is the organization of the church. Part of our baptismal covenant is to "bear one another's burdens, that they may be light". Turning away from the church in your time of need is to refuse the help God has prepared for you. Because the people of the church are imperfect, they don't always fulfill their baptismal covenant with ease, they don't always respond to the still-small promptings of the spirit to be there for others, because their hearts are not always in tune enough to hear those promptings or to understand them. And there are many who are struggling so much with their own personal trials that they feel they have no energy to reach out and help others in the church. This attitude, however, is counterproductive. No matter how deep and troubling ones personal trials, we should all be seeking to help on another.

Our baptismal covenant was not to bear the burdens of the weak only when we are strong. It was to "bear one another's burdens". If we all reach out to one another and share the burdens equally, that is when they are "made light". I've been in many wards, and I've seen some where the members were so open and helpful that I understand what God intended with His organization of the church. And I've seen others that are struggling so much with people unwilling to do their part that those striving to bear the burdens of their fellows together become overwhelmed. This won't be made better if you pull away- rather you should "thrust in your sickle" and do what you can to improve the situation in your ward.

Nothing we face was intended to be handled alone. It requires humility to accept the help of others and compassion and trust to reach out to help others when we are struggling ourselves. These are all qualities (humility, compassion, and trust) which we need to build within ourselves if we are to be perfected spiritually. Jesus Christ is there to turn our weaknesses into strengths through His grace, and His grace is sufficient for all those who humble themselves before Him. (Ether 12:27) It is when we do this and exercise faith in Him that our weaknesses become strong.

You do not have to feel faith. Faith is an action. If you pray for rain in a drought, that is not faith. Faith is going out and planting your fields- because you must trust that the rain is going to come. You have been praying, but have you been doing? Perhaps you feel as though your faith is gone and you have failed your trial because you have not truly been exercising faith. What actions have you taken to show trust that the Lord will do His part to improve your situation (provide the rain), after you've done your part of planting the fields? And even if your situation does not improve, how has your experience made it possible for you to feel more compassion for others and build other Christ-like qualities within yourself?

Why would God leave anyone to bear something on their own? Why would He thrust trials upon anyone which seem so impossible to bear? Why has He designed mortality to be so hard for everyone? Because He does not expect us to "overcome". He does not expect us to be successful- at least not in the way the world sees success. Mortality was designed as a place for us to exercise our spirits, an exercise that cannot be completed alone. We have to rely on one another and on the atonement to be made whole. Just as a redwood tree would never be able to stand alone- their roots are too shallow to bear their size and they intertwine with the roots of other redwoods so they can stand together, neither can we. Yet together, we can be a mighty and inspiring forest. Where you are weak, others are strong- and where you are strong, others are weak.

Humility, compassion, faith- these are the qualities God seeks to build in you and the "why" behind your trials. Everything He does or doesn't do is designed to bring out those qualities and facilitate the perfection of your spirit. There are many who face worldly trials that will never go away, but they can still be victorious as they humbly seek the help of others, reach out with compassion to offer their own help, and exercise faith through action and trust. Even if they never get where they would like to be in mortality, they will realize that God's purpose for their life was achieved.

[Dark_Jedi]

Hi Judo, Thanks for chiming in again. Please know I do appreciate your thoughts and I am considering them. Just a few points to help your understanding (or maybe to just explain myself).

For the first, I'll use an analogy. Let's say your taking a test (pick a subject - maybe math). While you thought you'd prepared for the test and were ready, when you start to take it you realize you weren't at all prepared. As you go question by question, you realize you don't know any of the answers, and there is no way you can pass because you don't know the answers - no matter how many questions there are or how hard you try. Likewise, it became apparent to me awhile into the test of faith (I thought I had the faith to begin, and I'll elaborate on that in a moment) that I really didn't have the faith I needed. I'm not talking a few weeks here, I'm talking months (over a year, and don't bother with the God's time is not our time- our family was on the brink of bankruptcy, losing our home, and so on). Unlike the analogy, I did know some of the answers - just not enough to pass. I was still active at this point when I realized that whatever it was God wanted me to do, I didn't know what it was. I didn't "give up" I just saw the realism of the situation - no matter what I was doing or going to do I really did not have the faith required - I freely and openly admitted that, AND, no attempts on my part to increase my faith seemed to make any difference.

Secondly, I appreciate your thoughts about faith being an action. I realized when I was fired (actually I was asked to resign), that I was in a dire situation. I also thought that if this was supposed to be a growth opportunity for me, there would be an end to it, and God, who knew what was happening and what was going to happen, would show me the path I should follow. This particular job field (it's professional, I had no other training in other fields) looks very poorly on being fired, especially after a short period of time. This was a huge red flag on the resume and a black ball among industry leaders. Nonetheless, I still believed God could help me. I literally applied for HUNDREDS of jobs all over the country, and even interviewed for several (an oft repeated response was the admin liked me and thought I was a great candidate but they couldn't get it by their boards). I did plant the fileds, so to speak - I did all I could do. Summarizing this, God set this situation up (for whatever reason, challenge, growth, test, whatever) and I recognized it as such but when it came time for God to fix it, despite me doing all I could do, here I am 10 years later not in any better psoition (and quite arguably much worse due to the economy - except we have no debt now).

Lastly, addressing the ward/bishop. I, too, have experienced wards that were much more open, friendly and helpful than others which were quite the opposite. This ward, I thought at the time, was one of the better ones. I did have friends there who really cared - so I thought. (I will repeat this - stop going to church and you will find out who your friends really are, and you will be surprised.) During this time of great trial, both the active and inactive parts, while expressing sympathy, the membership did little (honestly I can't think of anything) to actually help. I did turn to the bishop for help, and he offered food assistance to the family, which was very helpful. However, after nine months of food assistance (I was still active and the family has always remained active) he SENT ME A LETTER (didn't even have the guts to meet with me) in which he said food assistance was meant to be temporary and there would be no more. He had not met with me in months at that point and probably didn't know that unemployment had run out, the substitute teaching I was doing and my wife returning to work wasn't really cutting it, our savings and food storage were gone, I was reaching the point of desperation (this is when I was considering suicide - I had a plan and a date) and had hit rock bottom. But how cold he know all that, he hadn't bothered to ask how I was. I am sure he was inspired to do what he did. He was made aware of our situation and my feelings at that time, but never met with me again before he was released several years later and his counselor was called (you may recall he has met with me once).

One final side note, referring to the suicide thoughts. God did not prevent that from happening, nor did any of his servants. There is a story in our ward of an inactive member who had the gun to his head (not my chosen method, but to each his own) and the phone rang - it was the bishop/home teacher (different one). he saw that as a miracle, and I wouldn't disagree - the bishop did say he was inspired to call and make an appointment at that moment. Good thing he followed his prompting. The suicide hotline, not God, saved me, and like the vast majority of others who call the hotline, I was not inspired to do so - I was actually calling them to tell them where to find my body so someone else would befoe my family. Sadly, there is no Clarence and there is no Monica.

[Dark_Jedi]

@Kawasu: No, I have not given up. Had I totally given up, would I be here? I want to believe in the LDS version of God, but I have no reason to. I don't even have a reason to believe in the version I do believe in (close to the Deist version). What little faith I do have has not been rewarded.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Dark-Jedi, I am sorry about your Bishop. I can relate to so much of what you said, my husband got laid off 3 times in almost as many years, we lost our house, we had to file bankruptcy, we received food assistance from the church for at least a year, and I had to get a job (which broke my heart...and probably tested my faith at that point more than anything because I had always been taught the Lord would provide a way. . .)

And then things got hard. . .seriously, after all that I started having life threatening health issues, and then things got worse. . .

I'm so not kidding. My relationship with Heavenly Father helped me get through all that stuff I mentioned....BUT ...then the repressed memories of severe childhood abuse began to surface. That was what drove me to be angry with God, to feel abandoned, and to consider suicide. Like you I had a plan, and I will never forget the day I thought, "I could do it tonight."

Remember my analogy about the wounded man in the Good Samaritan parable getting up and chasing down the Priest (it is so pathetic it makes me laugh to think of it), but that is basically what I did. I called my previous bishop (we had moved out of the ward and he was now in the Stake Presidency) and I asked him if I could see him. I did not tell him I was suicidal, I was too ashamed, but he knew. The things he was inspired to say to me (which, if I am honest were things others had said but I wasnt ready to hear) helped "pull me back from the ledge". I mean it kept me from committing suicide, but it took a long time after that to stop being angry with God. I still struggle to accept that He loves me, but I'm working on it.

I only share this to say, I understand. I really, truly do.

I don't believe that God gives us all our trials, I don't believe it was "part of the plan" to help me grow to be severely abused. But I do believe that God has to allow free agency. And I believe him when he says thy suffering shall be but for a small moment. That is what I hold on to.

I am still in therapy...twice a week. And I still struggle with my testimony, but I'm holding on. I do NOT believe you have failed the test of faith or any other test. I don't believe that God has given up on you. If there comes a time, when you feel that you want to return to God, He will welcome you with open arms. He knows how much you have suffered, He understands your pain. He loves you. I know that is hard for you to accept right now....that's ok, I accept you whatever you decide to do. He accepts you too.

Edited October 19, 2012 by LiterateParakeet

[Vort]

Long time no see, Kawazu!

[Vort]

DJ, if I understand you correctly, you seem to believe that you were betrayed by your beliefs. I would completely agree with you; you were indeed betrayed by them.

As I understand them, your beliefs included the following:

• If you had sufficient "faith" (whatever that might mean), God would bless you.
• The specific form of God's blessing would be directly related to your pain point. That is, your job would be spared, or you would find another job, or you would strike oil on your property, or have some other event take place that made you financially secure.
• If you were sufficiently righteous and/or faithful, bad things like mortgage foreclosures would not befall you.
• The fact that some of these bad things happened any indicates that either (1) you were not sufficiently faithful, or (2) the promises are false -- which possibility in turn is caused either because (a) God himself does not exist and is merely a fairy tale, or (b) what you have been taught about God and his interactions with us is false.

Is this correct?

I suggest that, other than the first point, the entire belief structure above is false. God has never promised to "open the windows of heaven" and dump money on us. Good, faithful, tithe-paying Saints still go bankrupt and even hungry. They still have tragedy befall them.

Very recently, a family in our stake lost their oldest (12-year-old) son in a tragic accident on their property. They were by all appearances faithful, honorable, decent, loving people. The son's death made no sense at all; he wasn't doing anything wrong, he was taking appropriate precautions, and yet his best efforts to do exactly as he had been taught directly caused his death. How is this fair? It is not.

I have no doubt that the father would gladly have given up his lucrative practice, accepted bankruptcy, and lived out the rest of his life in a one-bedroom apartment if it would only have saved his son. But he was not offered that choice.

Bad things happen to good people. The sun shines and the rain falls on both the just and the unjust. That is the nature of this fallen world. To base your very belief in God on whether or not some certain bad thing happens to you is short-sighted.

You can reacquire the faith you once knew. Others have walked that path before you. But if you are comfortable in your loss of faith and value the feeling it gives you, then you will not return. You must put that off and honestly, humbly go in search of God. If you do, you will find him.

[Dark_Jedi]

@Vort: No disrespect intended, but no you have missed some of the point (maybe you should go back and reread). Points 1 & 2 iare partially correct, 3 is totally off base (not even in the park) and 4 is pretty close to being accurate. Undoubtedly bad things happen to good people (and good things happen to bad people), and indeed the rain doth fall on the just and the unjust. But this just didn't "happen" - it was perpetrated, and God had a hand in it (remember, I would likely still have been at the old job had I not been inspired, AND the human perpetrators, including the active, faithful church member, knew that what they were doing was career ending). Reading your other posts in various places, I see you like to call people to repentence, and frankly, you are a bit on the self righteous side. Calling the unfaithful to repentance is useless. You have no clue the depth of my experiences nor how humbly I have sought for and pleaded with God. Just because it happens for others, perhaps even you, does not mean it will happen for me and any other random individual. Your faith is not my faith, and no two peopel's faith are the same.

@Literateparakeet: Thanks again for your words of understanding. Careful with the platitudes.

On edit, I should have said before: I don't doubt both of you believe what you say. I respect that, but I don't believe it.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Dark_Jedi

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@Literateparakeet: Thanks again for your words of understanding. Careful with the platitudes.

I slipped into platitudes? curse, curse, mutter Sorry, it was unintentional. I hate platitudes...they come from non-members too, by the way. :)

[Vort]

@Vort: No disrespect intended...Reading your other posts in various places, I see you like to call people to repentence, and frankly, you are a bit on the self righteous side.

Okay. No disrespect taken.

[Windseeker]

To me many of the responses you view as Platitudes are Eternal Principles.

..just saying

Platitudes are all dependant on where your point of view is. Your redundant use of the word Platitude in this thread is becoming a Platitude for me.

[Anddenex]

Hello Brother,

In this post, I am going to peruse through some of my thoughts and share them with you. Note, please understand this is not an attempt to change your heart or mind. Just some thoughts I have been having recently as I have pondered your posts (Note: I have no stewardship over you, thus my responses are my responses alone, and bare no spiritual inspiration).

Here is my first line of defense and thinking:

1. Have I received a witness?

2. If so, how does this witness affect my decision daily, and especially when I am going through trials, I consider, to be tough.

3. What were the witnesses I actually received, and do they still stand today?

4. If so, then at some point I will understand the Lord's will (Openly noting, I do not understand why it appears the Lord's hand is withdrawn for extended periods of time, although I have shared some of my pensive thoughts), even if this means not until I die.

5. What matters most? This life and my trials, or the time I stand before God? If no God, or a Deist God, then nothing matters. Reverting myself back to thought 1, if I have received a witness, then the time I stand before God matters most.

I have been recently thinking about some of your comments and the tree of life has been impressed upon my mind.

1. Blissful life of those who have left the church. I am reminded of the Spacious building with so many people laughing and appearing to be having so much more fun, than someone holding onto a stupid rod.

Some of these people are those who have had a witness, and for some reason or another forsook the witness, for a short time of bliss. Yet, the Lord will allow only so much time before this bliss crumbles.

2. Other pressed forward, clinging, and other pressed forward, holding fast, and some just plainly let go.

3. I have always been impressed by Lehi who stood beckoning to his family, and others to come and partake.

4. I have been more impressed when I finally realized that the tree of life represents an cyclic pattern. We experience "dark and dreary waste, and temptation". We hold fast, or cling, or let go. By holding fast, we at some point partake again of the fruit (Sacrament). Those who cling, are able to hold tighter. Those who let go, are able to come and hold fast.

And then we start over.

I am not Lehi, I am your brother in Christ, and stand beckoning with others, "Do not remove your name from the records, nevertheless it is your choice."

Peace Brother.

P.S. By the way, I was a pretty good tool in the hands of the Lord on my mission in helping Syths return as Jedi's....just sayin. If not, I think I still have a good chance as beating you should our red and green light sabers ever cross paths.

P.P.S. I think you and I read a different post from Vort. Vort and I don't see eye to eye a good number of times, however, I believe his post was a sincere attempt to try to understand you. I am grateful for his post, especially in mentioning the loss of a son. I believe, this was the intent of his comment, or at the heart of his comment.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Anddenex

[Dark_Jedi]

@Anddenex: Thanks agin for your thoughtful (and thought provoking) words. I agree that Vort was trying to understand my point of view, and was probably a bit rough on him (caught me at a bad moment). I didn't start this thread nor do I return here to argue. I'm still mulling over your tree of life analogy, especially the cyclical part. I'm a little lost in it because I don't understand the part about those who left being blissful. While a big part of the original question was finding inner peace, I don't necessarily view anyone who has left the church as blissful - although some inactives seem blissful (I'm not one of them). Honestly, I don't know anybody personally who has left the church, or been ex'ed for that matter. I may have asked them the question if I did. Somehow, I'm doubting any of them are blissful, but I don't know.

(Not all Sith were Jedi. Neither Darth Maul nor Darth Sidious -AKA Emperor Palpatine - were once Jedi. The difference in the Sith and dark Jedi is that dark Jedi are open to and use the dark side of the force, while Sith, of which there are not more than two at any given time, are controlled by the dark side. Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. The chosen user name has little to do with my status in the church - I use it on other forums and Twitter. Readers should not infer this part is a gospel related discussion. While the force could be related to priesthood power, there is no equivalent, or even apparent equivalent, on the dark side.)

[Dark_Jedi]

I slipped into platitudes? curse, curse, mutter Sorry, it was unintentional. I hate platitudes...they come from non-members too, by the way. :)

Tell me about it! The nonmembers were the worst ones in the beginning. Talk about not knowing what they're talking about!

[Dark_Jedi]

To me many of the responses you view as Platitudes are Eternal Principles.

..just saying

Platitudes are all dependant on where your point of view is. Your redundant use of the word Platitude in this thread is becoming a Platitude for me.

"...many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view..."

While this is just a movie quote, it fits and I often think about it.

Anyone know who said it and in what conext?

[Windseeker]

I cheated, I was going to say the Matrix..fail

Remember when people used to use Star Wars in testimonies about the force and the dark and light side etc?

Funny how that stopped when the new episodes came out..hehe

[JudoMinja]

Three main points here-

1. The way your bishop handled your food help was not, from what I understand, the correct way to go about it, and whatever hurt you garnered from that experience, I think, falls on his shoulders and not Gods. I was receiving help from the bishop's storehouse while I was with my now-ex, and I've also done quite a bit of volunteering helping at the storehouse. My experience with it is not perfect, but here's my understanding of what should have happened: Your bishop should have been meeting with you regularly not just to fill food orders but to discuss your plans and your budget. He should have been giving you counsel and suggestions, checking up on your efforts to get another job, etc. AND, he should have been asking you to perform some kind of service in return for the help you were receiving. Yes, it is meant to be temporary- but he shouldn't have just cut you off like that. I'm sorry you went through that.

2. I can most definitely empathize with the job situation, and I'm sure many others who've faced the hardships of the shifting economy can also. The job I have now is only minimum wage and just barely enough for me to get by living in a tiny cheap apartment, getting food stamps and medicaid, and paying my parents for their car and having them sometimes have to grace me a payment so I can afford things like clothes or shoes. I've gone through the effort of finishing my schooling and am constantly putting out applications to everything I can find that will provide better and that I'm qualified to do- even if it isn't the kind of job I'd prefer, and I keep hitting brick walls. So, I go through temporary bouts of depression and wondering if my education is really worth it or how I'm supposed to work my way out of my little financial black hole, but then I get right back up and keep on trying and keep looking for other ways I can improve my chances of getting an interview or broadening my horizons for other possible jobs. And I know too that even if I never get another job, the one I have is at least good enough for me to get by, even if I'll never get ahead.

3. I think it is quite possible God has blessed you and you've just overlooked those blessings because they weren't what you expected, or they were so small and trivial that they could have been contributed to something or someone other than God. From Vort's comment- the only premise of the four he listed that was true was the first one. "If I have sufficient faith, God will bless me." The rest builds off that one point, but is all false, because the blessings He gives us aren't going to always be directly correlated to our pain or even neccesarily recognizable as blessings. You mentioned having a substitute job and your wife working- could it be that those jobs were blessings in your time of need? There are also blessings of comfort, health, strength to endure, and other very subtle things that can easily be overlooked.

Those miracle stories about the person who landed the perfect job at the perfect moment or had their home miraculously saved from foreclosure, or somehow ended up with money that tided them over but seemed to come from nowhere- those are Not the norm. If we go about our lives expecting those kinds of miracles we are going to be disappointed, because that's not normally the way God works. For every story like that there are thousands of others like yours where God did not intervene. Like the tragedy of 9/11- there were many stories shared about people who should have been there during the attack, but through some small act or twist of fate they were not- yet those stories were few compared to the number of people who lost their lives, for whom God did not intervene. Yes, faith requires action and trust, but it also requires trusting in what is true and not a false premise. So what is true? How will God help you?

Remember, his purpose is your spiritual growth. This requires letting go of the things that shift around you and cannot be trusted to remain constant- like jobs, homes, friendships, financial security etc. All those things can disappear in the blink of an eye. The only constant is the Savior- "remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall." (Helaman 5:12)

There is no promise that you will not lose your job, your health, your home. Yet we are promised that our lives will not be lost to despair if we remain solid on the foundation of our Savior. Even in poverty, stricken with cancer, or any number of other possible hardships that could potentially endure for the rest of your life, you can find peace. I think your understanding of this has been faulty, and this is why you now find yourself doubting God. Instead- you should seek to correct your understanding of Him through more fervent study of the scriptures and words of the prophets. You can have a close relationship with Him and rebuild your faith in Him as you strive to recognize HOW he blesses you and learn to let go of those things that can be so easily taken away.

[Anddenex]

(Not all Sith were Jedi. Neither Darth Maul nor Darth Sidious -AKA Emperor Palpatine - were once Jedi. The difference in the Sith and dark Jedi is that dark Jedi are open to and use the dark side of the force, while Sith, of which there are not more than two at any given time, are controlled by the dark side. Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. The chosen user name has little to do with my status in the church - I use it on other forums and Twitter. Readers should not infer this part is a gospel related discussion. While the force could be related to priesthood power, there is no equivalent, or even apparent equivalent, on the dark side.)

I will respond to your question about the tree of life a little later to explain my thoughts.

At this moment, with given time, I was only making a play on words with your name, not technically saying it was in reference to how you are within the church.

It was intended as playful banter.

[Dark_Jedi]

I cheated, I was going to say the Matrix..fail

Remember when people used to use Star Wars in testimonies about the force and the dark and light side etc?

Funny how that stopped when the new episodes came out..hehe

No, I guess that whole Star Wars & testimony thing didn't happen where I lived. (During the original series I lived in Pennsylvania and Texas, and I wasn't a member until the third one.) I can only imagine.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Dark_Jedi

[Dark_Jedi]

@JudoMinja:

1. Agreed, God didn't do that, but it is a big part of why I believe church leaders (and members in general) are not inspired and that revelation is extremely rare.

2. This all happened before the recession, the recession just hasn't helped.

3. Still mulling that one, but it comes close to a platitude. Have I been blessed? Sure, I'm very healthy, my family loves me despite my faults, until recently and besides the other event we are getting by (i.e. not starving, shelter, etc.) and so on. I'm not meaning to be demeaning here, but how many atheists (they wouldn't like use the word blessed), Muslims or Buddhists can say the same thing? How many people who do nothing to demonstrate any faith in God are blessed in these same ways? And please don't misconstrue my including of Muslims in there - devout Muslims are very faithful and most Christians could learn a thing or two about faith from them. I know those miracle stories are not the norm. When I met with my stake president he told me one of his little miracle stories (he has several) about being young and poor having graduated from a no name college, then being urged by his wife to apply to Harvard for an MBA which he did never thinking he would get in, but he was and that's the only place he applied and now he's VP of a major multinational company (you own at least one of their products guaranteed).

Anyway, still mulling the rest, but I don't offhand disagree that my ideals of what God was supposed to be were wrong. That said, most of what I believed is based in church doctrine, and this incident was just a turning point - that's why I was reluctant to share it. What happened happened, that can't be changed and I don't expect God to do that. The real dichotomy is much more spiritually related than that. You need to unfocus from the incident (and there's still much more I haven't shared) - it's part of the story, it's not the main plot.

So, seriously, how does God really bless the faithful? Or does he? Because that's really part of the root of this whole thing. My neighbor is a great guy. Hard working, successful small businessman. No apparent religious affiliation. I've never asked, but I know he attends no church. He's older than me and at least as healthy, has a nice home, great family, etc. Is he blessed or is that just the way it is? Maybe these things aren't what you're talking about as blessings, and that's fine, but what are blessings then? If I'm not recognizing blessings it's because I'm not seeing them. If I'm not seeing them, how am I supposed to know they're blessings? If you (or anyone else) tell me eye opening thing that changes the way I think (and that's entirely possible), am I not going to be able to point to my neighbor and say "yeah, but he has that, too"?

Edited October 19, 2012 by Dark_Jedi

[Dark_Jedi]

It was intended as playful banter.

And as such was it taken. Maybe my reply sounded too serious? (And then I didn't want readers to get carried away with that because it could get way off topic and it's irrelevant. It did call to mind again one of my favorite movie quotes, though.)

I have other things to do today, and this weekend, as well, but will check in at some point.

[JudoMinja]

I understand your "event" isn't the whole story- I'm just trying to use it as a building point since it was one of the turning points in your crisis of faith. I know you wouldn't be considering removing your name from the records if you hadn't already given this a lot of thought and felt certain about your belief- or lack thereof. I'm just hoping that my thoughts might facilitate discussion and maybe bring up things you may not have considered yet. Understand- I'm speaking as someone who believes whole-heartedly in the "LDS God", and my belief comes from overcoming my own crisis of faith and my devoted study as I've tried to gain a deeper, more concrete understanding of the gospel. I'm trying to build on knowledge that should be familiar to you because of your background with the church, but also to throw off many of the misconceptions that can come from a "surface" understanding and lead people astray. The more you respond to my thoughts, the more I know if I'm going the right direction or just covering things you've already considered.

As to your thoughts about other faiths- Remember that with our missionary efforts we strive to have people keep the good they already have and merely build upon it with the knowledge we share with them. People don't have to be LDS to be blessed. They don't have to be LDS to have faith. There is truth all around us and many religions have varying portions of truth. Even those who are not religious, like atheists or scientists (not that all scientists aren't religious- just pointing out another different line of thinking) are privy to portions of truth that can help guide and direct them in their lives. And we are all given the "spirit of Christ" which helps us in dissecting truths from falsehoods.

It is my belief, however, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the FULLNESS of the Truth. AND that there is still more yet to be revealed to us that we do not know. This knowledge and spiritual understanding, however, is both simple and complex. It has the potential to become confused because of its simplicity and our tendancy to complicate it where it needn't be, as well as to be entirely misunderstood because of its complexity. There are many many details which come together to make the whole, and it is in those details that we can often find ourselves tripping over misinformation the adversary likes to squeeze in. His lies can even find themselves embedded in the culture of the church and misrepresented as doctrine- and so he is able to lead even the "elect" astray with his cunning devices.

I only hope that you are convinced it is not yet time to give up on His church. I think it is time for you to re-examine the areas of the gospel you are struggling to understand- like faith, agency, mortality, adversity, and the withdrawal of His presence. I think you can still find the answers, especially within the Book of Mormon, because I truly believe that one can draw nearer to God through that book than any other. Don't just read the scriptures- study them. Go into them looking for the answers to your questions and doubts. Take the topics that are troubling you and search them out, along with anecdotal material from manuals, talks, ensign articles, etc. And of course- continue to act and serve those around you, because you certainly cannot come to understand how His blessings and interactions with His children work if you are not seeking such interaction and striving to aid His hand.

[Anddenex]

@Anddenex: Thanks agin for your thoughtful (and thought provoking) words. I agree that Vort was trying to understand my point of view, and was probably a bit rough on him (caught me at a bad moment). I didn't start this thread nor do I return here to argue. I'm still mulling over your tree of life analogy, especially the cyclical part. I'm a little lost in it because I don't understand the part about those who left being blissful. While a big part of the original question was finding inner peace, I don't necessarily view anyone who has left the church as blissful - although some inactives seem blissful (I'm not one of them). Honestly, I don't know anybody personally who has left the church, or been ex'ed for that matter. I may have asked them the question if I did. Somehow, I'm doubting any of them are blissful, but I don't know.

As pertaining to the term blissful, I may have misunderstood this previous post then.

Probably most of the people who have felt this withdrawal for an extended time aren't talking to members of the church about their experience. They're probably just living lives of blissful inactivity or just went ahead and decided none of it was true and had their names removed or committed sin that led to excommunication.

However, within the tree of life, some left the iron rod and felt their way to the Spacious Building. The spacious building for a time appears to be very blissful for these individuals.

Yes, I don't believe you are one of these either. You are still clinging to the rod, otherwise in a previous post you wouldn't have mentioned how you listened to this past GC, hoping for an answer. Those who have entered into the spacious building will begin to mock and laugh at those who are still holding to the rod.

Just incase, if this part was misunderstood, the cyclical pattern of the tree of life is our everyday progression towards truth.

After we partake of the fruit, is all accomplished? No. Each week we actually partake of the fruit of the tree of life, the sacrament. A new week begins, we then again, enter our personal dark and dreary waste. As Lehi, we pray for mercy, we seek guidance, and we either will continue to hold fast, or cling, or let go of the rod.

At the end of the week, we again partake of the fruit of the tree of life. We experience the joy of the atonement, and then the pattern continues: dark and dreary waste, mist of temptation - hold fast, cling to, or let go of the rod.

This can be a cyclical pattern representing a life span, a one time partaking. It can represent a spiritual high, a knew found knowledge. Remember, the tree of life, the fruit is "eternal life" and remember Eternal life is to come to know God and Jesus Christ.

It can even be likened to a daily striving. I like the daily striving best, because it is one day at a time that we overcome.

Best Regards. :)