Do We Sugar Coat The Wow

[Guest bizabra]

Silly to you; people often feel that way about the beliefs of others. I understand your view on that. It is not silly to the Jews I know; they take their religion seriously.

BIZ: My jewish friends think the kosher laws are silly! And THEY are very serious about their religion! THEY are the ones who asked us to keep kosher in his deceased grandmothers home, out of respect for her! Do not question my friends' seriousness about their religion.

However, serious as they may be about it, and despite their having lived kosher for the past year or so, they laugh about how silly the law is!

If your jewish friends had a better sense of humor, or were honest about it, they might agree that it is silly in this day and age to not eat pork chops or tempura shrimp. It isn't irreverent to laugh about it.

sheesh

[Outshined]

I have friends of varying beliefs; some are Jewish, some are Apostolic or Holiness, and their women are required to wear dresses and long hair. I am content to let my friends observe their religious beliefs without feeling the need to ridicule them for it.

I recognize that there are people with beliefs other than my own, and that they don't have to conform to whether I feel their beliefs are "silly" or not. I'm sure you realize that the "silliness" of the beliefs of others is merely your opinion, and that they are not bound to respect or adapt to it.

[StrawberryFields]

Sometimes there are people who will try to find fault with anything for the sake of argument. Some of these people just enjoy arguing, and it helps to mask pain, deeply rooted in their lives.

[Nate]

Though you may use "clown suites" which is rather odd we do wear a undergarment everyday, even to work that remind us of who we are and the covenants we have made with the Lord.

REALLY? Would it matter at what you were told to do, wear, say or eat? ANYTHING if it came from "the lord"?

Though it may seem silly or strange we do not view our church like a goverment (groups of people just making up laws) but that our Church is directed by Christ through a prophet. We do have dietary guidance to help preserve our bodies from disease and increase health. We also are concerned with how we speak and present ourselfs verbally to help us carry the Spirit. So yes you could say that we are GUIDED, not "told" at what we are to wear, say, or eat.

[Shade]

WOW! (no, not WoW... I mean WOW!!!)

this is quite an interestig topic, indeed. i've had what i might call more than a limited experience in this field. what you could call a 17 year field trip, i guess...

i am currently (and have been) inactive since ±1991. been meaning to get back to church for some time now, but it is only now, 13 months and 6 days abstinent from crack cocaine, that i am finally clear-headed enough to be seriously considering this option.

i'm still smoking cigarettes and drinking caffeine in the form of liters of coffee and coca-cola each day, and they're currently right at the top of my list of priorities to set straight in the immediate future.

how did it all start? doesn't really matter anymore. but by the age of 14 or 15 (while still active in the church) i was (i now perceive) already a confirmed alcoholic.

i remember, as a small child, reading a kiddies' book on church doctrine, easy to read and illustrated. in it, drugs like alcohol, caffeine and cigarettes were illustrated by showing people crawling on their hands and knees, with exagerated huge bottles of booze, or packets of cigarettes tied to their backs. i clearly remember the imagery as being one depicting enslavement to these chemicals.

ok, so caffeine and nicotine are not crack cocaine. neither is alcohol. yet, statistically, nicotine or alcohol on their own, are each individually responsible for more deaths and broken families than all the other illegal (as well as prescription) narcotics put together.

don't believe me? how many people die each day worldwide from lung cancer or smoking-related illnesses? how many deaths on the roads daily, due to drunken drivers?

addiction is typically described as obssessive, impulsive and compulsive behaviour. about having a life that is out of control. AA, NA and other similar fellowships' 1st step reads "We admitted that we powerless over alcohol [our addiction][cocaine][etc...], that our lives had ebcome unmanageable.

ask any smoker if cigarettes have made their life unmanageable? "NO! ok, well not yet... um... i guess i am scared of cancer may be a typical response for some. others may say "NO! it's not a problem, i can stop anytime..." (YEAH, RIGHT!! i used to say that about crack...) so is their life unmanageable? well, try taking those cigarettes away from them and see how well they cope... or better yet, steal an emphysema patient's oxygen tanks... haha ok, maybe the last one is a little cruel, but you're getting the idea, right?

ok, so where does that leave something as innocuous as caffeine? well, same as for the "average" smoker... try taking away the caffeine for a day or even a couple of hours. NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY!

i also cannot believe that i hav managed to get through this entire piece of writing without using any profanity. perhaps it's simply the fear of being banned from the site, after the first time i've ever actually written anything. hehe. yes, i have a foul mouth. but, just for today, it's better than crack cocaine...

so WOW! WoW? hmmm... it's not bleeding rocket science!

[Nate]

I dot know when the last time you had bore your testimony but that was a pretty rockin one, welcome Shade. B)

[StrawberryFields]

I agree with you Nate, good job Shade. :)

Thanks for not swearing Shade and Welcome to LDS Talk! Or at least your first post.

[Shade]

um. thanks.

[prisonchaplain]

They have a real sense of humor about how silly the laws are. Which they are. However, not keeping kosher doesn't disqualify a jew for anything. It is not a requirement to entering any house of god. It doesn't bar a jew from participating in their religion. They do not justify it as being "healthy". My friends recognize it to be a test of devotion and sacrifice that can bring some closer to god, but not required for all. It was a way to set the people apart during the diaspora, to remind them of who they are as a people.

But it is very silly to not be allowed to eat beef stroganoff or bacon and eggs or to keep your dishes segregated in the kitchen. VERY silly!

How you can understand the practics so well, but misapprehend the importance of these laws for observant Jews. Jews who do not keep kosher are not Torah-observant. They may have a cultural practice, and a religious practice, but from an orthodox perspective, they are not participating in the covenant between God and his chosen people.

The rules themselves may seem silly, but they are far more than an option some Jews happen to chose because they think it might possibly bring them a bit closer to God.

[Rosewood]

Thanks PC, that was bothering me too. I have family that is Jewish and I know that there are different denominations (?) so maybe that answers the attitude thing.

Maybe it bothered me because I don't like our church being judged by what a few odd balls do.

[Shade]

i think the movie "Forest Gump" used one of the best quotes of all time:

'my mama always used to say, "stupid is as stupid does." '

yesterday, i failed to really emphasize the point i was trying to make:

why do i choose not to drink or use drugs? cos they're freaking evil and i've had to learn the hard way what the "wisdom" part of this covenant really means to me...

[Guest bizabra]

I have friends of varying beliefs; some are Jewish, some are Apostolic or Holiness, and their women are required to wear dresses and long hair. I am content to let my friends observe their religious beliefs without feeling the need to ridicule them for it.

I recognize that there are people with beliefs other than my own, and that they don't have to conform to whether I feel their beliefs are "silly" or not. I'm sure you realize that the "silliness" of the beliefs of others is merely your opinion, and that they are not bound to respect or adapt to it.

BIZ: I take exception to your characterizing my post as "ridicule" of my friends kosher rules. Seeing the humor in a law, that on it's face is "silly", is not ridicule! MY FRIENDS THEMSELVES poke fun at it, seeing it as silly, which is is, if taken literally. What it represents to THEM is not silly, and I don't ridicule that.

I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYONE CHOOSES TO DO IN THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, but I CAN see the humor and the silliness in some of those actions, be it not drinking tea or not eating bacon or wearing archaic clothing or yellow saffron robes! The action IS silly! But the belief underlying it is not. And I don't mock that. Period.

Do you lack such a sense of humor that you cannot see the silliness of not washing plates that were used to eat a meat meal in the same sink as plates used to eat a milk product? Can you not? At least my friends can, and THEY are the ones practicing the law! Don't be so serious that you can't see the humor in it!

WHATEVER!

And Strawberry Fields, I do not have any "deeply rooted pain" in my life that I am trying to "mask" in any way. Please do not presume to know my motives on anything. I'm also not trying to be argumentative about anything, just for the sake of it. Thanks.

My original post was simply questioning the idea that anyone would do anything their CHURCH leaders said, no matter what it was, even if it entailed wearing clown suits to work, and if so, if they should defend themselves "BOLDLY" to their co-workers, as was suggested by the poster whose name I do not now remember. I was challenging THAT assertion, and simply responded to Outshined's mention of kosher laws that he implied in his post were silly. (he does not actually say they are , but read his post yourself and you will see that he "implies" that kosher laws are silly)

I agreed, that on-the-surface, my friends' kosher laws are silly, and THEY THEMSELVES gently mock them, as they DO have a well-refined sense of humor, but that it doesn't lesson the underlying covenant in any way.

SHEESH!

BTW, my original question remains unanswered. WOULD you wear a clown suit to work and boldly proclaim to your co-workers, when they expressed incredulity, that you were proudly wearing the clown suit because it was "suggested" by your CHURCH leader that you should do so, and that if you didn't, you couldn't enter the temple of the lord to perform your most cherished religious rituals?

OK, that last part, about entering the temple if you didn't wear the clown suit to work, is an addendum to the original question, but I think it makes the question more relevant, in-as-much as drinking coffee or tea WILL prevent a CHURCH member from going to the temple.

So, anyone want to answer the question?

[Guest bizabra]

Though you may use "clown suites" which is rather odd we do wear a undergarment everyday, even to work that remind us of who we are and the covenants we have made with the Lord.

REALLY? Would it matter at what you were told to do, wear, say or eat? ANYTHING if it came from "the lord"?

Though it may seem silly or strange we do not view our church like a goverment (groups of people just making up laws) but that our Church is directed by Christ through a prophet. We do have dietary guidance to help preserve our bodies from disease and increase health. We also are concerned with how we speak and present ourselfs verbally to help us carry the Spirit. So yes you could say that we are GUIDED, not "told" at what we are to wear, say, or eat.

BIZ: I was not drawing a comparison of garments to clown suits. THAT is YOUR speculation, not mine.

Also, The WOW, as currently interpreted by CHURCH leaders, has been shown by modern medical research to NOT be a health code. Tea, coffee, and even moderate consumption of wine, is NOT bad for you, but often these foods have actual health benefits.

I think it high time that all CHURCH members stop trying to justify the WOW as a health code and begin to defend it in terms of an obedience test, which is what it really is. I don't have a problem with people holding to apparently silly religous rules, if they are honest about the motivation and sincere in the underlying meaning, which in the case of the WOW is to follow the prophet in all they do and to be able to enter the temple.

I do think it silly to continue to pretend that the WOW, as currently interpreted, is a health code, when it, as currently interpreted, is NOT. If you want to give up tea, coffee, and alcohol, in order to show your obedience to your prophet and to continue to be able to attend the temple, then it is fine by me! Just don't try to convince me you do so because of your health.

I MIGHT believe you followed the WOW, as it was written, for health IF your weight was in a normal range, you exercised daily, your diet did not include refined carbs or sugars, and you ate very little meat, except in the winter or in "times of famine". But then, the WOW, as originally written, does not require one to give up tea or coffee in any explicit terms, now does it?

[CrimsonKairos]

It's a revelation that promises health benefits and spiritual benefits.

It's not an either/or issue. It's both.

[Outshined]

Biz if you're going to work yourself into a tizzy about it, consider making your point more clear next time. NOW you say you respect their beliefs and so forth, but before you just kept parroting "it's silly" over and over (in caps, no less). As I said, I don't judge the religious practices of anyone I know, and I don't consider anything they hold sacred "silly". You further assert that if one does not share your view on the subject, they have no sense of humor; right. Your disdain of kosher practices is your opinion, nothing more. I try to view it with the same level of respect I give my own beliefs, though I don't follow it myself.

If you wish to be offended because others don't share your exact viewpoint on a particular subject, you'll just have to be offended.

[Guest bizabra]

Here is my first post, copied and pasted:

BIZ: REALLY? If the prophet issued a decree that required CHURCH members to wear say, clown suits, you'd do it unquestioningly and declare boldy to your stunned co-workers that you were wearing this clown suit because you were being "obedient"? REALLY? Would it matter at what you were told to do, wear, say or eat? ANYTHING if it came from "the lord"?

That's silly!

Here is YOUR response:

I don't follow the kosher laws, but never considered my Jewish friends silly...

BIZ: I will repeat: I do not disdain kosher law. THAT is YOUR assumption, not my assertion.

[Outshined]

BIZ: I will repeat: I do not disdain kosher law. THAT is YOUR assumption, not my assertion.

Brought on by your repetition of the word "silly" in reference to it in subsequent posts. As I said, if you'd made yourself a bit more clear beyond how silly you thought it was, reactions may have been different.

Hey, I'm happy to hear that you respect the beliefs of others; you were not clear about that.

[Rosewood]

As far as 'clown suites' go, we have the responsibility to pray about things and receive confirming revelation concerning it. We don't or at least shouldn't do anything blindly. If we don't pray about this sort of thing then we deserve to wear clown suites!

I SO agree with Nate on the WoW. I obey because it's a commandment & I try to do the whole thing, without excuses. Sometimes I say "I'm lds" that usually ends any discussion. But the other day I had a situation.

I took my son to a neurologist who has prescribed the lowest amount of dexadrine for him. I don't normally tell people this because it causes such a controversy! Its a narcolepsy/a.d.d. thing and we've gone thru ALL the tests. The question of caffeine came up with the Dr. and I said, we don't use caffeine were lds. He looked at me like I was out of my mind and said, you won't use caffeine but you'll give your son dexadrine!? I just stutered a bit and said we'll it's our beliefs and you're giving him dexadrine, not me. He just shook his head and said, "What ever"

I was shaken by the science of the doctors office! I felt ashamed of myself for not being more bold, but I don't know what else I could have said. I just hope that later he might have thought about it and realized it's a spiritual issue.

[Dr T]

Rosewood,

Both are stimulants. Both act on the body similarly. "It's a spiritual issue" says nothing to the contradiction.

Dr. T

[Nate]

Remember that "medication" even caffeine can be used as medicinal purposes, just not as a lifestyle. My wife has to have caffeine everyday with her pregnancy or she will pass out (literally) from Low Blood Pressure. She uses it not as a lifestyle but literally as a drug. Your child needs the meds hence it was prescribed. Now if she continued after the preg and had to rely upon it not for medicinal purposes, then that I would guess would be against the WoW.

[Rosewood]

I understand what both of you are saying, and sometimes I wonder if I'm making life more difficult than it has to be. But, when a Dr. prescribes a substance, we have a tendency to take it more seriously. We handle it with more respect.

Do you remember the story of the Fathers of the Stripling warriors? When they buried their weapons and took an oath to God. Later when they were about to be attacked, they wouldn't take up arms again because they were afraid of loosing their souls. God hadn't commanded them to do that. But because they promised, they felt bound by it, to the point of laying down their lives.

I think it was in 98 or 99 when Pres. Hinckley was interviewed by Larry King he said we avoid caffeine. Now, you can interpret that however you like. But, my son had just been babtized and he wanted to make that commitment to not drink caffeine, so I did it with him.

I guess it's really just a personal issue having little to do with being lds in that it's not a "requirement".

[prisonchaplain]

Here's a bit of a curve ball. IF I were to relocate to the Federal Detention Center Salt Lake City (there is no such facility, btw), I would like give up beverages on the WoW list--for spiritual reasons. In a community that predominantly askews certain consumables as being not spiritually worthy, why should I allow any liberty I perceive myself as having bring reproach to my faith, and perhaps cause others to stumble?

[CrimsonKairos]

Good point, PC.

And uh, I think "askews" is meant to be "eschews."

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

Sort of a "When in Rome . . ." sort of thing. I would not expect it of you, but the fact that you even thought of it and your willingness to adapt to the spiritual expectations of those around you (so long as it does not violate your own creed) is WONDERFUL. We know from your posts here what a good man you are, PC. You must really, really love the people you serve. Thank you for being you.

That sounds kinda cheesy, but it's not meant to be. Some people are articulate and use extensive vocabularies and some people, um, thingie. LOL.

[prisonchaplain]

Good point, PC.

And uh, I think "askews" is meant to be "eschews."

Just so we get our etimology correct, askew is a conflation of eschew and a sneeze.

... okay, okay, I like the word but never did spell it right. Confound it!