Could Joseph Smith

[Guest Amitunai]

Off topic...

But 9/11 was done by something other than airplanes. Its been proven on way to many occasions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd1-Dp_-7WI

And a man from BYU (Steven Jones) did the research, a Mormon!

By the way BYU put him into early retirement because he told the truth about the buildings going down, and the school received criticism.

[Fiannan]

Off topic...

But 9/11 was done by something other than airplanes. Its been proven on way to many occasions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd1-Dp_-7WI

And a man from BYU (Steven Jones) did the research, a Mormon!

By the way BYU put him into early retirement because he told the truth about the buildings going down, and the school received criticism.

But where does Elvis, Bigfoot and those pesky grey aliens that abduct people in the night and give them obnoxious probes fit into this? Well, since Elvis was technically Jewish then maybe the Zionists connection can be made. As for the aliens I'll bet Michael Moore could find a way to tie them in. However, Bigfoot...hey, there's lots of Mormons in the CIA and the Russian version of Bigfoot is named "Alma"...ohhh, spookie!

[Nate]

I live in a town where 30% of the population is Muslim, and let me tell you there is nothing 'lovely' or 'good' about this religion. Can I remind everyone about the attacks on the world trade centre? Or more recently the horrific London bombings? These were done by muslims! They hate us as a western society!I have also looked through the Koran and it actually says 'do not befried the christian or the jew' and then goes on to say something like we will all burn in hell for believeing what we do. I have encountered racism on myself-Ive walked past asians in the street who look at you with such hatred in their eyes because you are a white western woman. This is an evil religion!!!!

I my self have lived where SuzieKL lives and completely agree with her. I found that the Muzlims were more kind and trustworthy than most Buhdists, Hindu's, and Christians that I had encountered.

Could the same remark be given to the Christians for the crusades? Is Christianity "evil" because there was a time that a certain sect thought conversion by the sword wasnt that bad.

[Fiannan]

I live in a town where 30% of the population is Muslim, and let me tell you there is nothing 'lovely' or 'good' about this religion. Can I remind everyone about the attacks on the world trade centre? Or more recently the horrific London bombings? These were done by muslims! They hate us as a western society!I have also looked through the Koran and it actually says 'do not befried the christian or the jew' and then goes on to say something like we will all burn in hell for believeing what we do. I have encountered racism on myself-Ive walked past asians in the street who look at you with such hatred in their eyes because you are a white western woman. This is an evil religion!!!!

I my self have lived where SuzieKL lives and completely agree with her. I found that the Muzlims were more kind and trustworthy than most Buhdists, Hindu's, and Christians that I had encountered.

Could the same remark be given to the Christians for the crusades? Is Christianity "evil" because there was a time that a certain sect thought conversion by the sword wasnt that bad.

Uh, just who'se agression caused the crusades in the first place?

[Nate]

Uh, just who'se agression caused the crusades in the first place?

Not sure what response you want. Was your comment to say "ya thats right" or are you asking cause you disagree. Who's agression? Well I can asuredly say that it was not rightous anger or agression. Maybe im not getting you man, please explain.

[Fiannan]

Well, what do Spain, the Balkins, Russia/Ukraine all have in common?

[Nate]

Europe?. I duno, please enlighten.

Im feelin a little in the dark here. What are you getting at?

[Shade]

A survey done in this country showed that a third of all young british muslims AGREED with Al Qaeda attacks.

Now, I am not a racist person, but can you see why I would dislike the muslim religion if this is what it teaches? No respect to people younger than you, playing the racism card at every possible oppurtunity? I also find them very hypocritical with their appalling treatment of women, and also they smoke, take drugs, use prostitutes etc, when they are clearly not supposed to do these things.

firstly… UK is 'apparently' a democratic country. 30% is a minority. what do the other 70% say? and are you judging them by the standards of the 30%?

speaking as a recovering addict, and a newly "re-activated" LDS member… i used to smoke, drink, drug, fornicate, etc, etc. i don't really need to go into details here right now. point is: does that make the LDS religion evil, because it's followers are "ALL" junkie whoremongers? does that make YOU an evil person, because we are both LDS?

you ARE AWARE, right?… that there are segments in the Islam faith who do not follow the same generally accepted beliefs as the majority. Shia or Shi'ite Muslims believe differently to the Sunni Muslims. there is a divide. but you must know this, surrounded by so many of the evil buggers as you are.

in a similar way, there are "fundamentalist Mormons". and the world JUDGES the LDS faith by their standards. why do so many people assume that all "Mormons" have serveral wives? well… quite simply cos they're too ignorant and stupid to bother to find out the facts and truth for themselves.

tell me something... i would be very interested to know, what do the Muslim people in your community know/believe about The Church of jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? what have you taught them about the true Gospel of Christ?

[Shade]

You lost me buddy. Why not share one of these virtuous, lovely, of good report or praiseworthy excerpts from the Q'uran, in English. Then we can discuss it effectively.

oh, and for you, Krimson.

* And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honor.

* And lower unto them the wing of submission and humility through mercy, and say : "My Lord ! Bestow on them Your Mercy as they did bring me up when I was small."

* Your Lord knows best what is in your inner-selves. If you are righteous, then, verily, he is Ever Most Forgiving to those who turn unto Him again and again in obedience, and in repentance.

* And follow not ( i.e., say not, or do not witness not, etc.) that of which you have no knowledge ( e.g. to say, "I have heard ..", or, "I have seen ..", while in fact he has not heard or seen). Verily ! hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each one of you will be questioned ( by Allah.)

* And walk not on the earth with conceit and arrogance. Verily, you can neither rend nor penetrate the earth, nor can you attain the stature like the mountains in height.

* All the bad aspect of these ( the above mentioned things) are hateful to your Lord.

* This is (part) of the al-hikmah ( wisdom, good manners, and high character, etc.) which your Lord inspired to you. And set not up with Allah any other god lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected ( from His Mercy.)

* (Translation from the Quran 17:33-39)

…since you asked...

[Rosewood]

i remember reading an exerpt in an Ensign a few years ago, in which the Prphet said that Mohammed was a righteous, good and spiritual man.

Actually there were a couple. One was Ishmael My Brother, I can't remember the other, but they were both very eye opening.

I agree, Joseph could have, but I think it's more fun to think he might have actually met Muhammad, the man Who WROTE it! I don't know what has happened to book since it was written, but we all know that things don't always remain intackt through time. I think it's kind of funny to think that people judge the ancient religion by what it has become today.

[a-train]

Ok,

Since we are getting close to saying that Muhammad could have been a true prophet of our God, even Jehovah. Let's hear the opinion on the subject. Could he have been? Was he a true prophet and were his teachings skewed away from a more Christian teaching by his followers after him? Could he have believed that Jesus was Allah and did his followers later undiefy the Saviour to the status of a mere mortal prophet of Allah? Could he have looked forward to the restoration as did the prophets of old, and could his followers only later proclaim him to be the last of all prophets? Could he have received revelation having lived in a time thought to be a period void of revelation?

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

But 9/11 was done by something other than airplanes. Its been proven on way to many occasions.

Actually, Pres. Bush was flying both planes, used a top-secret military teleportation device to travel between planes, with temporary skin grafts to appear middle-eastern, and had a magic parachute he bought off the tooth fairy for a million barrels of oil.

[MaidservantX]

Since very few of us have read the Qu'ran (I've read excerpts, but it has been a very long time ago and I remember none of what I read) nor the history of Islam, none of us can answer this well. (Google time!)

I'll give you the tidbits I'm aware of and you'll laugh at my lens. Muhammed married a woman that had been married previously. An older woman. Muhammed was rather a young man. She encouraged Muhammed and inspired his endeavors as well as financed them. She also spoke freely about the same kinds of matters he did -- spiritual ones. She did not live in submission to Muhammed nor did he think that she should.

I don't think Muhammed claimed to have been visited by God. He does tell how Gabriel visited him and spoke to him -- I don't know the content of those instructions from Gabriel.

Islam is a rather young religion -- in the 800 A.D.s I think (could be really wrong on this). What were the people believing before they began to listen to Muhammed? It seems apparent from the story traditions in Islam that resemble the ones given in Judaism (and thereby Christianity). Also there is some reference to Jesus, so there at least was a 'news' report of those events available to Muhammed in the culture he arose from. How much did he get directly from Gabriel and how much did he simply become inspired regarding the knowledge and doctrine he already possessed?

As I have pondered the subject of other religions (other than the Restored church) and their purpose on earth and in God's plan, and as I have asked him about it, I came to see other religions as gifts to the people, to allow them to have as much light as they sought as individuals and also to provide them with edicts that would allow them to enjoy as much physical health as possible in the lands and time periods they lived in. I was disturbed that Muhammed claimed to have heard from Gabriel and that just seemed wrong, not how it ought to go if he was a true 'prophet' or spiritual leader, but as I have asked God I have revised my understanding at that and I am completely flabbergasted and joyous that God sent Gabriel to inspire the young man Muhammed IN PREPARATION FOR THE RESTORATION OF HIS CHURCH IN AMERICA A THOUSAND YEARS LATER. I said in another thread and I'll repeat here, to read the small volume "The Mainspring of Human Progress". This volume is not the newest thing, it is a few decades old at least. The author shows how the Muslim religion and all of the things that arose from it (not unmitigated good necessarily, but the whole of the religion and the culture that adopted and thrived from its teachings) eventually led to the European Renaissance and from the Renaissance there is a direct line of thought to the point which the United States of America is founded in liberty. Of course, the author says nothing about Joseph Smith, knowing nothing about him. But as an LDS, I have always been taught that one reason the United States was created was place for the church to be freely restored and so I was amazed that that seed was planted way back when God sent Gabriel to Muhammed.

Islam is not the anti-christ. This conflict that is in the world, seemingly in the name of (a) God, is not so much for Christianity to route Islam, as it is, in my opinion, for the sincere believers within Islam and within those countries that practice Islam generally to arise and lay hold upon more light and shed their shackles; and some of that may mean LDS missionaries in those countries. Not to say that there isn't quite a bit of prophecy laid upon this geographic region and the idea of a final conflict, which nothing I say contradicts that; a very few zealously evil people can wield the whole world into chaos -- for a time -- it's happened before many times. Until righteous people of all beliefs and traditions realize that they are the ones with the real power by laying hold on more and more righteousness.

[Guest Amitunai]

thank all you.

[Palerider]

<div class='quotemain'>

But 9/11 was done by something other than airplanes. Its been proven on way to many occasions.

Actually, Pres. Bush was flying both planes, used a top-secret military teleportation device to travel between planes, with temporary skin grafts to appear middle-eastern, and had a magic parachute he bought off the tooth fairy for a million barrels of oil.

oooopppsssss......don;t forget Cheney was flying the other plane...........

[CrimsonKairos]

Mohammed lived from 570-632 A.D.

I don't believe the scientific and medical advances made by Muslims prior to the renaissance were due to them being Muslims.

Interestingly, Muslims view Mohammed's role as being a restorer of the monotheistic religion practiced by Adam, Noah, Abraham and others. They actually claim that it wasn't Isaac that was nearly sacrificed by Abraham, but Ishmael (Abraham's firstborn son through Hagar). Hence they view much of the Bible as a corruption of an originally pure form of worship.

I don't see how that prepares the world for the restoration.

[Guest Amitunai]

I never stated who was flying the planes, but your imagination leads you to believe the President of America was the pilot. Which says alot about you, with my response you could become 1 of 2 things

1) a person who believes in physics

2) a conspiracy theorist

its obvious you're a conspiracy theorist.

I read an old proverb which says, theres truth in every mans sarcasm.

Btw, my comment was deleted by someone who didn't like it, so you should of left it in the bottom of the sea like the titanic.

[Palerider]

I never stated who was flying the planes, but your imagination leads you to believe the President of America was the pilot. Which says alot about you, with my response you could become 1 of 2 things

1) a person who believes in physics

2) a conspiracy theorist

its obvious you're a conspiracy theorist.

I read an old proverb which says, theres truth in every mans sarcasm.

Btw, my comment was deleted by someone who didn't like it, so you should of left it in the bottom of the sea like the titanic.

Ditto...........after reading your earlier remark was sort of thinking thats what you are........ a conspiracy theorist....

[Guest Amitunai]

Well considering it was someone else's theory, and I posted it with no general opinion other then what was being said in the link, hence it doesn't make it my theory. But what Crimson said was an awesome theory.

[CrimsonKairos]

Well I am a writer...you always gotta' keep your eye open for the most ridiculous plot ideas you can! B)

[Palerider]

Well I am a writer...you always gotta' keep your eye open for the most ridiculous plot ideas you can! B)

[MaidservantX]

Google Henry Grady Weaver to get his philosophy (the author of The Mainstream of Human Progress). Here's a site to get you started -- refers to Mr. Weaver at first, you can drop off reading the end of the essay.

http://www.libertyhaven.com/thinkers/henrygrady/henry.shtml

By the way, CK, I tried not to imply that the restoration needed the doctrine of the Islam religion as its foundation. I simply mean (after having read Mr. Weaver) that Gabriel visiting Muhammed (may well have) set off a chain of events that lead to greater and greater liberty in the earth and as manifested in the arising of the United States (and thereafter a place for the Restoration). Not that my theory is better than yours, but I like it for me, lol.

[MaidservantX]

Quoting from a chapter in "Mainspring . ." (written in the 1940s)

'About 1,400 years ago, a self-made businessman began the second major attempt to establish individual freedom. Born in the year 570 A.d., he was an orphan - -of good family, but cheated out of his property inheritance. As a child, barefoot, ragged, and hungry, he worked 16 to 18 hours a day and slept on the bare ground under the sky. He had no schooling, but he had practical ability. He got ahead and, as time went on, became widely known and respected. He traveled, buying and selling goods throughout the greater part of the then-civilized world. Babylon was long forgotten, and the Roman Empire had ceased to exist. Europe, sunk in the barbarism of the Dark Ages, was less important than Africa is today [?sorry his words]. Constantinople -- surrounded by the thriving cities of Baghdad, Damascus, Antioch, Alexandria -- had become the center of world trade . . . Shrewd, humorous, and friendly, he is more interested in human relations than in problems of trade. He marries his employer, a woman of business ability. [and here Weaver writes as if it were in this century] Comfortably well-off at middle age, they retire to live . . . He and his wife keep open house. They serve coffee to their friends. The entertainment is conversation. The host's opinions are so unusual that for some three years he is rather reserved in stating his views, lest they sound too radical. But little by little, he begins to express himself more openly, and friendly arguments originating in his living room begin to spread over the town. He agrees with Abraham and Christ: The pagan gods do not exist; there is only one God -- the God of Truth and Rightness -- who judges men but does not control them; each individual is self-controlling and responsible for his own acts; all men are brothers. The man's name was Mohammed. His ideas created terrific excitement because he was expressing them in Mecca, the shrine of the most renowned pagan gods."

More later.

[Guest Amitunai]

Quoting from a chapter in "Mainspring . ." (written in the 1940s)

'About 1,400 years ago, a self-made businessman began the second major attempt to establish individual freedom. Born in the year 570 A.d., he was an orphan - -of good family, but cheated out of his property inheritance. As a child, barefoot, ragged, and hungry, he worked 16 to 18 hours a day and slept on the bare ground under the sky. He had no schooling, but he had practical ability. He got ahead and, as time went on, became widely known and respected. He traveled, buying and selling goods throughout the greater part of the then-civilized world. Babylon was long forgotten, and the Roman Empire had ceased to exist. Europe, sunk in the barbarism of the Dark Ages, was less important than Africa is today [?sorry his words]. Constantinople -- surrounded by the thriving cities of Baghdad, Damascus, Antioch, Alexandria -- had become the center of world trade . . . Shrewd, humorous, and friendly, he is more interested in human relations than in problems of trade. He marries his employer, a woman of business ability. [and here Weaver writes as if it were in this century] Comfortably well-off at middle age, they retire to live . . . He and his wife keep open house. They serve coffee to their friends. The entertainment is conversation. The host's opinions are so unusual that for some three years he is rather reserved in stating his views, lest they sound too radical. But little by little, he begins to express himself more openly, and friendly arguments originating in his living room begin to spread over the town. He agrees with Abraham and Christ: The pagan gods do not exist; there is only one God -- the God of Truth and Rightness -- who judges men but does not control them; each individual is self-controlling and responsible for his own acts; all men are brothers. The man's name was Mohammed. His ideas created terrific excitement because he was expressing them in Mecca, the shrine of the most renowned pagan gods."

More later.

The name of his wife was Khadijah, whom was 40 years old when he married her in his 20's.

[CrimsonKairos]

One thing to Mohammed's credit was the "Charter of Medina." If Muslims followed the example he set back then, perhaps Muslims, Christians and Jews could leave together in peace in the Middle East (well, Christians and Jews are willing to).