Born this way.

[Bini]

I wanted to share this because I found the interviews to be eye opening. This isn't about who is right and who is wrong, rather, I wanted to emphasis on the difference between transgender and transexual, and share some of their stories as food for thought. While the two words are clearly two different things, they are often times mashed into the same meaning, and I think these individuals do a fantastic job in sharing their very personal accounts. After watching it and reading the overwhelming feedback from other parents with transgender children, it gives me a little more insight to the unusual and often secretive world that transgender children, teens and adults live in.

Gender is who you believe yourself to be and your sexuality is who you want to bounce it off of.

I recall having countless discussions about whether a child can be transgender/transexual before they reach puberty. I think the above quote hits the nail on the head. Transgender is how an individual identifies their gender (regardless of gender reassignment surgery) and not sexuality. It was noted that there are instances where male transgenders live as female but remain unattracted to males, therefore, they are not transexual (and vice versa). Transexuality is when a transgendered individual is sexually attracted to the same gender, for example, a male transgender living as a female and is attracted to males. The difference between transexuality and homosexuality is the gender aspect of it. Homosexuals are comfortable being anatomically male or female (even if their characteristics may mimic opposite gender) and "come out" when they are ready to address their sexuality. Transexuals are dejected over their anatomical gender, and are attracted to the same gender but live as the opposite gender (be it lifestyle, surgery or both). So, can a prepubescent child be transgender? Yes. Can a prepubescent child be transexual? No, not in the sense of a romantic or sexual relationship. Just as heterosexual little boys and girls don't manifest sexual attraction until they start puberty.

Here are some of the interviews from the Katie Couric Show. I found them to be informative and give hope to the many families out there that struggle with this issue. I really enjoyed the personal account from, 19-year old Devon, and how she was born male but lives as a female. The author of Far From The Tree, Andrew Solomon, did a great job on explaining what transgender/transexuality is and with a compassionate tone for individuals walking in those shoes. Another notable mention is the story of Jazz that was featured on 20/20. Unlike 19-year old Devon, 11-year old Jazz opened up about being transgender while still in school, and talks about her experience having done so - the good and the bad.

I understand this is a sensitive topic and I'm not here to convince you to agree or disagree with any of it. I found these personal accounts to be informative and humbling, especially since there's no parental manual in addressing transgender/transexual children, and I hope someone else might to.

[Anddenex]

Gender is who you believe yourself to be and your sexuality is who you want to bounce it off of.

I have qualms with this quote due to this quote given by our First Presidency and Apostles in 1995.

Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

Thus, in no way, in light of this revelation, is our gender determined by ourselves. Gender was and is determined, by who we were/are/and will always be, the moment we became sons and daughter of our Heavenly Father in pre-mortality.

However, understanding other people and having compassion for other people is the emphasis of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Guest DeborahC]

I wonder what the church's stance is regarding sexually ambiguous people - children who are born with BOTH sexual organs?

[LittleWyvern]

I have qualms with this quote due to this quote given by our First Presidency and Apostles in 1995.

I don't think it wrong to believe that gender is an essential characteristic of our spirit, but bodily imperfections can make things much more complicated. DNA replication and chromosome formation is a very messy process, and replication and copying mistakes always happen (that's how random mutations work). I view it as a miracle that DNA works as well as it does. Thus, while gender is an essential characteristic of our spirit, translating that into our imperfect body may result in parts of this characteristic being lost in translation.

[jerome1232]

I wonder what the church's stance is regarding sexually ambiguous people - children who are born with BOTH sexual organs?

Prayer and counsel with local leaders, just like it always is in these rare exceptional cases.

[Anddenex]

I wonder what the church's stance is regarding sexually ambiguous people - children who are born with BOTH sexual organs?

The only position I have read is we know that one spirit gender inhabits the body. The gender, the spirit, was established the moment the spirit entered the tabernacle of clay.

Thus, the gender of the child is already predetermined. However, this makes is difficult when a baby is born with both genitals and both are properly functioning. They say that the parents should pray, fast, speak with their spiritual leaders, and if they know then proceed with an operation.

However, I would be more inclined in these situations to allow a child to grow up and make the decision for themselves through prayer and fasting.

One thing for certain, the spirit of the child will not change after death. If the spirit is male, then the spirit will be male after death, no matter what operation they have had.

My wife has a close friend, who we just recently found out went through a sex change. He is a man, now physically he is a woman. His gender has not changed. He will still be a man after death.

This is where I am glad we have a perfect Father in Heaven, who is perfectly just and merciful. He is fair and in cases of children who are born with both -- God will work it out -- and I am positive there will be more compassion for these individuals especially if the parents chose an operation that was the wrong gender.

[Anddenex]

I don't think it wrong to believe that gender is an essential characteristic of our spirit, but bodily imperfections can make things much more complicated. DNA replication and chromosome formation is a very messy process, and replication and copying mistakes always happen (that's how random mutations work). I view it as a miracle that DNA works as well as it does. Thus, while gender is an essential characteristic of our spirit, translating that into our imperfect body may result in parts of this characteristic being lost in translation.

Agreed, however the translation lost does not determine the gender of the spirit. The spirit's gender has already been determined.

Gender isn't our choice. The Lord formed us, his sons and daughters, and one spirit is placed in each body.

The quote specifically emphasized (at least according to what was quoted and given) that we choose our gender. LDS doctrine, this is false. Gender has already been given before we entered a tabernacle of clay. It is up to us to honor our spirit's gender.

[Guest DeborahC]

Somehow I can't wrap my mind around the idea that a man, who believed in his heart of hearts he was a MALE, and whose spirit is male, would choose to have such a drastic surgery as a sex change unless spiritually, he was sure he was a FEMALE trapped in a male body. Personally, I think it's best to leave those choices to the adult individuals involved, do my best not to judge, and let God sort it out.

[LittleWyvern]

Agreed, however the translation lost does not determine the gender of the spirit. The spirit's gender has already been determined.

Gender isn't our choice. The Lord formed us, his sons and daughters, and one spirit is placed in each body.

The quote specifically emphasized (at least according to what was quoted and given) that we choose our gender.

To be fair to the quote, if somebody has genetic mutations that make the concept of physical gender confusing, their search for physical gender identity must involve at least a bit of introspection and decision making. Here, unfortunately, the issue delves into deep philosophical questions I don't feel qualified to try to answer, but certainly those whose genetics make physical gender identity less obvious have many personal questions to answer which are hopelessly vague (such as "who am I?") and may not have a correct answer at all.

[Anddenex]

Somehow I can't wrap my mind around the idea that a man, who believed in his heart of hearts he was a MALE, and whose spirit is male, would choose to have such a drastic surgery as a sex change unless spiritually, he was sure he was a FEMALE trapped in a male body. Personally, I think it's best to leave those choices to the adult individuals involved, do my best not to judge, and let God sort it out.

I agree, I can't fathom it myself, and just last week when my wife woke up she asked me if I had heard correctly and she was having a hard time with the reality of his choice.

Yes, let God sort it out, however we also know how God feels regarding Transsexual Operations. It is an offense potentially worthy of formal discipline within the Church.

These individuals also, are deemed unworthy to receive the priesthood, and to receive a temple recommend.

As previously stated though, compassion is how we should behave toward these individuals, and as you said, "let God sort it out."

[MarginOfError]

FunkyTown once shared a story of an individual he personally knew who was a more ambiguous sex. If I remember correctly, the person grew up as a male, but in early adulthood chose to have surgery to become a female. She counseled with her priesthood leaders throughout the process and was granted all the blessings of church participation, including temple ordinances (if I'm remembering FT's story correctly).

The very most I'm willing to say on such topics is that it isn't a matter to be taken lightly.

[Guest DeborahC]

These individuals also, are deemed unworthy to receive the priesthood, and to receive a temple recommend.

People who have had gender identification surgery are deemed unworthy?

Not according to the person posting before you.

[MarginOfError]

Also, I'm uncomfortable with a blanket statement that if a person was born with male genitalia, then their spirit is male. (or vice versa). I don't see it beyond the realm of possibility that a female spirit somehow ends up in a male-sexed body. I just recognize that I lack the capacity to know for sure, and I lack the capacity to understand the psychological conditions that go along with such a condition (or even the feeling of such a condition). These people are in need of compassion and acceptance more than most, so I'll do my best not to be an added source of grief.

Lastly, when transgender, transsexual, hermaphrodism, etc are topics of discussion, I think it is important to recognize that professional fields distinguish between sex (a biological construct) and gender (a social construct). Thus, the statement that "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose" is a bit ambiguous to these conversations. My impression is that the Proclamation's statement applies to spiritual sex, which very often corresponds to mortal biological sex.

[Anddenex]

People who have had gender identification surgery are deemed unworthy?

Not according to the person posting before you.

The subject I was speaking is nearly a direct quote from CHoI 1.

The subject I was referring to is an individual who received an elective transsexual operation, in other words, born male (only male), and then as an adult receives the operation -- as shared regarding my wife's friend.

According to the Church Handbook of Instructions, her friend is now deemed unworthy to perform any act which requires the priesthood, and is not able to receive a temple recommend.

This is not the same situation regarding hermaphrodites who are born with both genitals, and their parents performed the operation for them while they were babies. Hermaphrodites are not in the same position as someone is

I believe the example shared by MoE, from FT, is describing a hermaphrodite. I remember FT's post also.

[MarginOfError]

People who have had gender identification surgery are deemed unworthy?

Not according to the person posting before you.

By the Church Handbook of Instructions, an individual who undergoes an elective gender reassignment surgical procedure is ineligible for the priesthood or temple attendance. However, bishops and stake presidents may make recommendations to the First Presidency when they feel exceptions are warranted.

(In fact, bishops and stake presidents may make such recommendations to counter any policy in the Handbooks if they feel exceptions are warranted. The CHI in many ways is like the Pirate Code )

Edited February 27, 2013 by MarginOfError

[Traveler]

There are 3 "things" that determine what we all are in this life and what we will become in eternity.

First: is the spirit that is the child of our Father in heaven. It is the essence of ourself that has always been. In the Proclamation released by the First Presidency - we are told through revelation that our eternal essence, from a very ancient beginning had gender - male or female.

Second: is the influence and enlightenment that we receive through the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost. This enlightenment will teach us and give us commandments and covenants connected to the power to become G-ds - of which gender is of eternal importance and the only means to divine powers of sexual reproduction resulting in the creation of children of G-ds.

Third: is the influence or enslaving influence of the Devil or Satan that intends to confuse and capture the spiritual children of our Father in heaven to prevent them from becoming G-ds with power to use their gender to create. A prime tool in Satan's arsenal and war against G-d and his "works and glory" is to "confuse" one's eternal gender and if possible to completely enslave mankind to powers that they will be unable to control (discipline) - forever binding them in in captivity that will prevent them from G-dlyness.

Thus we all can determine our eternal destiny and influence others according to that spirit that we choose to guides us (agency) to either freedom through discipline (including gender discipline) within the guidelines G-d has established through covenants and commandments or bondage through self serving indulgence offered by Satan and his followers (including gender self pleasure).

The Traveler

[ploomf]

I remember reading a case about a transgender person who was born as a male but always said he had feminine feelings (would try to dress up in his mothers clothing, wear her makeup, etc) and he sometimes felt like a woman trapped in a mans body. But he grew up, got married, and fathered six children. One night he went to the emergency room for kidney stones and had an ultrasound and found out he had both male and female internal organs. So he had external male organs, both male and female internal organs, and felt like he was a female. I believe he is now living as a woman but is still married to his wife, it was an interesting case.

[mtnbikemom]

Oddly enough I just had a guest speaker in class who I thought was a black, lesbian woman. It took me a full 45 minutes to realize that it was a woman in the process of F to M transition (provided she/he could acquire the $200,000 for the surgery). As an added twist, she/he now identifies as gay because she, soon to be a he, has always been attracted to men. Talk about confusing. She/he was so confident that no one would ever guess that she was a woman and thus her transition was easier than most. I seriously debated pointing out that no time was I ever confused as to her sex. She/he was clearly female to me and many others in the room. Equally tempting to suggest it would be cheaper to just keep her parts and go by the name Larry when required. Social graces won over and I kept that comment to myself.

So yes, her biological sex is F. Psychosocially he/she has identified as male. I feel genuine sympathy with the obvious struggles and turmoil she/he experiences, whether my perspective is they are due to being dealt a crappy biological hand or a result of her decisions. It is still suffering.

Why this lecture would ever be considered vital to my college education is perplexing. That I had to pay tuition for this is maddening.

*she was also LDS. Black, transgendered, gay, LDS person has to be the pinnacle of minority groups.

Edited February 27, 2013 by mtnbikemom

[Dravin]

*she was also LDS. Black, transgendered, gay, LDS person has to be the pinnacle of minority groups.

One can always top it:

A 1/8th Seminole-black-homosexual-transgendered-paraplegic with dual Irish-Canadian citizenship who only speaks Esperanto. Oh, and she's left-handed.

[Traveler]

The Good News - or Gospel of Jesus Christ is that no man is bound by the circumstances or parameters of our mortal birth. Man can rise above all limitations of mortality and become a saint of G-d. With G-d it is not about being born with limitations but moving beyond all limitations - for all "good" things are possible with G-d

The Traveler

[annewandering]

People whos gender is in question are not given the priesthood or allowed to attend the temple are unworthy? I am not seeing that as what is being said. The problem is that priesthood is given only to males. Temple work is done on the basis of gender. Women do womens work and men do mens work. If your gender is unknown what work can you do? Its more a matter of there being no work you can do than being unworthy.

What sex we are is determined by chromosomes. If the chromosomes are messed up then you could be the wrong apparent sex. It would not be impossible to be the wrong sex for your spirit. In fact it is likely that some have had that situation.