Suffering and Perfection

[mikbone]

From today's priesthood lesson -

Chapter 7: Faithfulness in Times of Trial: “From the Shadows into the Glorious Sunshine”

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow

Some of our brethren have queried whether hereafter, they could feel themselves worthy of full fellowship with Prophets and Saints of old, who endured trials and persecutions; and with Saints … who suffered in Kirtland, in Missouri and Illinois. The brethren referred to have expressed regrets that they had not been associated in those scenes of suffering. If any of these are present, I will say, for the consolation of such, you have to wait but a short time and you will have similar opportunities, to your heart’s content. You and I cannot be made perfect except through suffering: Jesus could not [see Hebrews 2:10]. In His prayer and agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, He foreshadowed the purifying process necessary in the lives of those whose ambition prompts them to secure the glory of a celestial kingdom. None should try to escape by resorting to any compromising measures. (Deseret News: Semi-Weekly, Feb. 9, 1886, p.1)

Take it individually or take it collectively, we have suffered and we shall have to suffer again, and why? Because the Lord requires it at our hands for our sanctification. (Deseret News, Oct. 28, 1857, p.270)

[Guest]

Same lesson in RS.

And, as usual, the women have a completely different take on the lesson. There's no question in our RS if we feel ourselves worthy of full fellowship with Saints of old. We already know we are. In our lesson, it was emphasized that each and every one of us go through our own personal trials and tribulations. The kind of trial may seem trivial compared to the Saints of old but it is not so. Today's trials and tribulations may not come in the form of having to witness the death of your daughter on the trek to Utah or having to find peace on a hut of straw and turnips for candelabras... but it is not to say that it is lesser.

And therefore, we used the lesson as an opportunity to comfort our sisters who are silently suffering who may not feel worthy of comfort because they feel their troubles are too trivial compared.

One sister mentioned - there are those who feel that Heavenly Father loves us more when we are suffering. This is not true. Heavenly Father loves us the same whether we are suffering or not. We needn't keep suffering just to feel that love Heavenly Father has for us. We can reach out and ask for help to ease the burden from our fellow sisters. Without sisters reaching out asking for help, there wouldn't be much opportunity for sisters to exercise service.

And another sister mentioned - trials and tribulations tempt us to stay focused on ourselves to the exclusion of everything else ("Poor me!"). Lorenzo Snow's leadership was instrumental in helping those who are suffering go outside of themselves and help others who are also suffering. By looking outwards instead of inwards, the Saints were able to lessen their burdens.

Okay, this was my first RS attendance in 4 years (served in Primary all that time). So, I felt the love of all the sisters which helped me while I was painfully missing the Primary children.

[mordorbund]

From today's priesthood lesson -

Chapter 7: Faithfulness in Times of Trial: “From the Shadows into the Glorious Sunshine”

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow

Take it individually or take it collectively, we have suffered and we shall have to suffer again, and why? Because the Lord requires it at our hands for our sanctification. (Deseret News, Oct. 28, 1857, p.270)

What a depressing doctrine Did you manage to draw out something positive and uplifting from this?

[mikbone]

What a depressing doctrine Did you manage to draw out something positive and uplifting from this?

Absolutely

I personally related a story wherein during my surgical residency I spent anywhere from 110-125 hours a week at work. During these 5 years of residency, I can recall many times when I thought that I was being mistreated and overworked. I remember one day during my 3rd year when my 5 year old asked me if we could have a sleep over. When most kids ask about a sleep-over they want a friend to spend the night. My child just wanted me to be able spend the night at our home.

Anyway, many times since in my personal practice, I have been in situations wherein my many hours of work paid off both for me and my patients. And there were even some difficult cases that made me wish that I had spent a few more hours at work...

One of the Elders commented about how gold is mined and purified. Much ore has to be mined and then all the impurities have to be removed or burnt off. And interestingly, the closer that you get to a pure element, the harder it becomes to remove the slag or dross. He made the connection that our souls are much the same. Perfection is a heck of a goal but it is not an easy process.

We of course discussed the events in Gethsemane and Golgotha, and connected Christ's suffering to his perfection as mentioned in Hebrews 2:10. We also commented on Joseph Smith''s trials and D&C 122. And Hebrews 12:6

I later discussed the lesson with my wife and realized that one of the reasons that she loves our children so much is because she was invested in their well being after having suffered throughout the pregnancy and labor process. I love our kids too but she had a deeper love for them immediately.

Jesus Christ must love us dearly.

[ElectofGod]

Take it individually or take it collectively, we have suffered and we shall have to suffer again, and why? Because the Lord requires it at our hands for our sanctification. (Deseret News, Oct. 28, 1857, p.270)

There are many quotes in general conference about this. The saints in the future will have to endure greater suffering than the pioneers did. This is partially what was talked about in our elders quorum. Not to tangent on this I could quote those if needed but I will quote a different quote.

Revelations 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

McConckie said it better about many who will die, be martyred, sent to their own carthage jail, etc. (Helamen 10 or 15 lol applies here, forget which) I will quote this if you are interested. See The coming Tests and Trials and Glory

I will copy a few excerpts.

But our joy and rejoicing is not in what lies below, not in our past—great and glorious as that is—but in our present and in our future.

Nor are the days of our greatest sorrows and our deepest sufferings all behind us. They too lie ahead. We shall yet face greater perils, we shall yet be tested with more severe trials, and we shall yet weep more tears of sorrow than we have ever known before....

...But what we can see causes us to rejoice and to tremble. We tremble because of the sorrows and wars and plagues that shall cover the earth. We weep for those in the true Church who are weak and wayward and worldly and who fall by the wayside as the caravan of the kingdom rolls forward.

We rejoice because of the glory and honor that awaits those who come forth out of all this tribulation with clean hands and pure hearts (see Ps. 24:4).....

....As the meek among men make their calling and election sure, so those who worship the God of this world sink ever lower and lower into the depths of depravity and despair.

Amid tears of sorrow—our hearts heavy with forebodings—we see evil and crime and carnality covering the earth. Liars and thieves and adulterers and homosexuals and murderers scarcely seek to hide their abominations from our view. Iniquity abounds. There is no peace on earth.

We see evil forces everywhere uniting to destroy the family..,

Horrifying part!

The way ahead is dark and dreary and dreadful. There will yet be martyrs; the doors in Carthage shall again enclose the innocent. We have not been promised that the trials and evils of the world will entirely pass us by.

I brought up the following quotes in the lesson.

Holland, has stated:

"The road to salvation always goes through Gethsemene... Come follow me." but he did also say it just won't be as "severe" as Christ's was but we still must suffer. Suffering is the only way to become perfected in Christ. Without it we would fall short of the Glory of God. Also we will never be alone. There will always be someone there even if its an angel like for Christ. Hinckley even has stated, some will be called upon to be martyred (again that Helamen 10/15 reference).

[speculation] I feel we each choose what we wanted to perfect in ourselves in the pre-existence (the obedient did) and therefore to gain that experience heavenly father setup "a proving ground" for us to do so. Not sure if we knew what that was but I feel we did choose how we wanted to grow. (agency)

Next I shared the thought, We are not here to prove to God anything. God already knows who we are, what we are, and how we will turn out. We are here to prove to ourselves what we can do. What we are. Become aware of our imperfections, weaknesses, strengths, and overcome them. Some may not be overcome in this life though. Just like a Father always loves his son no matter how sinful he is. The father will always love and accept him. But it is up to the son to accept that gift. To accept giving up his sins to return to the Father. Just like we are the prodigal son he will lovingly accept us as his.

How can we know others without knowing their pain also? We can know the lonely only by being alone. We can know those who endure pain by enduring pain. etc.

Hope this first post isn't to depressing.

It may sound scary but its actually quite a blessing if we have the strength of the Lord with us. This is what I am currently working to overcome. If those future trials come and I am not ready.... I don't want to be a foolish virgin.

[Guest]

Not to be contrary but I just want to share this thing that changed my perspective on having endured pain to know pain...

I was going to this female OB who is part of an OB/GYN group. She left the group and so a male OB took her patients over. I did not know about this until I showed up for my next appointment and the male OB went in the room. I told him no, I want a female OB. And he asked me why. I said because a man cannot understand what I'm going through. And he replied, "If you get cancer, are you going to see only the doctor that has had cancer?".

Anyway, I tend to apply that experience with the rest of my life now. I don't have to get drunk to know how terrible it is to be an alcoholic. That kind of thing...

[ElectofGod]

You are right on that. Did Christ have to sin to know sin? Nope. So there must exist an ability to know how it feels to some degree without doing so. I tend to think that understanding comes through a variety of ways. Suffering is just one. Service is another.

How does Christ know what its like to overcome an addiction? He must have at least been tempted but is that adequate? Gethsemane is quite amazing if we think about it.

[rayhale]

I sometimes feel like the good son in the parable of the Prodigal Son when he saw his father welcoming home his brother, who had wasted his inheritance. I keep hearing all these stories of suffering, ether physically, financially, or spiritually, and can’t help but think, “what about people like me, who had little, to no, suffering, to do? Do I go to the same heaven?”

I guess I can then think of what the father said:

Thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Luke 15:31-32

[Finrock]

Good afternoon rayhale! I hope you've been doing well. :)

I sometimes feel like the good son in the parable of the Prodigal Son when he saw his father welcoming home his brother, who had wasted his inheritance. I keep hearing all these stories of suffering, ether physically, financially, or spiritually, and can’t help but think, “what about people like me, who had little, to no, suffering, to do? Do I go to the same heaven?”

I guess I can then think of what the father said:

Luke 15:31-32

Suffering is for everyone. If you haven't suffered yet then you will. Suffering can be caused by personal sin, other's sin, or circumstance. The idea of sufferring, in my view, is only weakly associated with the prodigal son story.

From President Snow:

"You and I cannot be made perfect except through suffering: Jesus could not [see Hebrews 2:10]. In His prayer and agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, He foreshadowed the purifying process necessary in the lives of those whose ambition prompts them to secure the glory of a celestial kingdom. None should try to escape by resorting to any compromising measures.

There is no other way in which the Saints can make spiritual improvement and be prepared for an inheritance in the celestial kingdom than through tribulation. It is the process by which knowledge is increased and peace will ultimately be established universally. It [has] been said that if all our surroundings were peaceful and prosperous now, we would become indifferent. It would be a condition that would be all that would be desired by a good many natures; they would not stretch out after the things of eternity."

I believe President Snow.

Regards,

Finrock

[Guest]

I sometimes feel like the good son in the parable of the Prodigal Son when he saw his father welcoming home his brother, who had wasted his inheritance. I keep hearing all these stories of suffering, ether physically, financially, or spiritually, and can’t help but think, “what about people like me, who had little, to no, suffering, to do? Do I go to the same heaven?”

I guess I can then think of what the father said:

Luke 15:31-32

But then rayhale, it is through your service to those who are suffering, even if you are not suffering yourself, that magnifies your mortal experience. So that you see the difference in attitude between the brother and the father when they found the one who was lost.

[bytor2112]

Off topic a bit but...(I love Elder McConkie) Can you imagine a General Authority being this direct anymore (maybe Elder Packer):

Amid tears of sorrow—our hearts heavy with forebodings—we see evil and crime and carnality covering the earth. Liars and thieves and adulterers and homosexuals and murderers scarcely seek to hide their abominations from our view. Iniquity abounds. There is no peace on earth.

[ElectofGod]

Off topic a bit but...(I love Elder McConkie) Can you imagine a General Authority being this direct anymore (maybe Elder Packer):

Amid tears of sorrow—our hearts heavy with forebodings—we see evil and crime and carnality covering the earth. Liars and thieves and adulterers and homosexuals and murderers scarcely seek to hide their abominations from our view. Iniquity abounds. There is no peace on earth.

Yes I agree. There are a few who are bold in a different way. Holland is occasionally. Haight was a little. this past conference had a few bold talks. I just read a conference talk that quoted the following scripture.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 aAnd then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The apostle asked. Who do you think are those that cast our devils and do wonderful works? Its not the world that does these things but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints. I was like, ouch that isn't a wake up call! The ten virgins truly does apply to the church not the world. They were already invited to the feast!

The jews thought themselves were all right before the Lord and I think too often we do that. We should be humble and as the parable that speaks of two people who pray to heaven. Don't be the one that says, thank you god I am better than those who don't pay their tithing, go to church, etc.... but be the one who is accepted of the Lord that calls out, forgive me father I am a sinner.

--------------

Pertaing to the post of the one that doesn't suffer. Suffering isn't always pain. Its trials too. I bet you have more than you think. Riches also was considered by Joseph to be the greatest test of all. how many rich people build mansions, buy every worldly thing and yet forsake the poor. (I just read mosiah 4 and it was a wakeup call to myself!) Also can read Approaching zion by hugh nibley that will open you mind. Its free online.

I love what Brigham young said when he was already in the SLC valley. I have not had a single trial yet in my life. Something to that sort. He than said he accepted all things that were given him graciously so they were not even trials to him anymore.

Edited April 19, 2013 by ElectofGod

[mikbone]

Off topic a bit but...(I love Elder McConkie) Can you imagine a General Authority being this direct anymore (maybe Elder Packer):

Amid tears of sorrow—our hearts heavy with forebodings—we see evil and crime and carnality covering the earth. Liars and thieves and adulterers and homosexuals and murderers scarcely seek to hide their abominations from our view. Iniquity abounds. There is no peace on earth.

And to hear someone condemn in poetic prose...

I miss the young Elder Packer. Even in a seated position sucking O2 through a nasal canula he gives the most rebuking talks. I love him dearly.

I could get behind some fire and brimstone.