Rev. Chapter 12

[a-train]

OK, this could get real interesting fast, or just flop. Although I have my own understanding of it and some references to study, I want to get some impressions about Revelation Chapter 12. There is a woman clothed with the sun, her man child, the dragon, a flood, the earth, a wilderness, lots of symbols. I'd like to see what everyone's two cents are on this Chapter, I love this one.

Thanks

God Bless

-a-train

[prisonchaplain]

Okay, you asked for it. This is a cut and paste of a Sunday School lesson I did on Revelation 12. Perhaps my opinion on your specific question is buried in here somewhere. :-)

4Revelation 12

(Revelation 12:1-6) A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. (NIV)

The Woman

The physical description

As a great and wonderous sign

There are seven signs given in chapters 12-19. Only this woman is a good one.

The usage of this verbage lends support to the idea that the woman symbolizes something more spiritual than a single person. Three prominent views:

Mary, mother of Jesus (Roman Catholic). After all, the woman gives birth to Jesus.

National Israel, because the woman gives birth the the Messiah (male child) in verse 5. If so, the twelve stars, are the 12 tribes of Israel.

The believing community within Israel (the Church)

The Devil's attack on the woman after the birth of Jesus would hardly seem to refer to the nation of Israel, but could easily refer to the believing community.

Since the community under attack would have been so since the birth of the child up to John's day, some 70 years later, it is likely that the woman is the messianic community of believers in Jesus.

My conclusion: The woman represents believers who have been persecuted from the time of Jesus right though the Tribulation.

Clothed with the sun. This could refer to the brilliance of her Lord or her own light-bearing ability.

With the moon under her feet could signify her permanence.

With a crown of 12 stars upon her head: These stars may indicate her elect status as the chosen of God--again, comparing with the 12 tribes of Israel. Compare also with Rev. 7's listing of the 144,000--12000 from each of the 12 tribes.

QUESTIONS: IN WHAT WAYS IS THE CHURCH A BRILLIANT POSITIVE EXAMPLE? ARE PEOPLE (SECULAR AND BELIEVERS) OVERLY CRITICAL OF THE CHURCH, OR ARE WE WOEFULLY LACKING?

What she does and what happens to her

She was pregnant, cried out in pain, and was about to give birth.

The emphasis here is on the suffering--both physically and spiritually--of the Messianic community as it awaits Christ return.

(Micah 4:10) Writhe in agony, O Daughter of Zion, like a woman in labor, for now you must leave the city to camp in the open field. You will go to Babylon; there you will be rescued. There the LORD will redeem you out of the hand of your enemies. (NIV)

QUESTION: WHY DOES GOD ALLOW HIS PEOPLE AND HIS CHURCH TO SUFFER?

This labor is not in preperation for the birth of the Messiah, but for his return.

She gives birth to a male child with an iron sceptor, that he may rule the nations. Thus, Christ will rule!

QUESTIONS: DO YOU REALLY SENSE THAT THE TIME IS GETTING CLOSE? WE HEARD A LOT OF THIS TALK IN THE 1980S. WHAT MAKES YOU BELIEVE THE TIME IS NEAR? HOW HAVE THE LAST 25 YEARS CHANGED TO MAKE YOU BELIEVE WE'RE REALLY CLOSE NOW?

Her child was snatched up to God and to his thrown. Jesus returns to Dad.

She flees to the desert, to a place prepared for her, where she is taken care of for 1,260 days.

Some have argued that this time in the desert will be a safe place for the Jews during the Tribulation.

Others believe it is a general place of safety, yet disciplining and testing for God's people. A parallel is seeing with the Hebrews spending 40 years in the desert wilderness.

QUESTION: WHICH VIEW IS MORE LIKELY HERE, AND WHY DO YOU THINK SO?

The Dragon

Physical description

He's enormous, red, has seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns on his heads.

What does all this represent. Clearly we have an evil, murderous creature. It may be that John is simply painting for us both the power and horror of it.

For an Old Testament example, considering the following portrayal by the psalmist, David:

(Psalms 74:13-14) It was you who split open the sea by your power; you broke the heads of the monster in the waters. It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave him as food to the creatures of the desert. (NIV)

QUESTIONS: WE'RE FAMILIAR WITH HAL LINDSEY, TIM LAHAYE, AND OTHERS SUGGESTING THAT THE TEN HORNS ARE TEN COUNTRIES THAT COME UNDER ANTI-CHRIST'S CONTROL, BUT ONLY SEVEN REMAIN TRUE TO HIM. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

So, who is he? Satan.

(Revelation 12:9) The great dragon was hurled down-- that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. (NIV)

(Revelation 20:2-3) He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. (NIV)

QUESTION: HOW DO WE SOMETIMES MAKE SATAN OUT TO BE WEAKER/STRONGER THAN HE REALLY IS?

What he does and what happens to him

His tail swings a third of the stars out of the sky, and he flings them to earth.

Rather than representing Satan's successful recruitment of a third of the angels, this passage most likely simply shows that Satan is indeed powerful.

If the third of the stars has a specific meaning, it most likely refers to God's saints, not angels.

(Daniel 8:10) It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. (NIV)

(Daniel 8:24) He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people. (NIV)

QUESTION: DOES IT NOT MAKE REVELATION LESS COMPLICATED, AND MORE DOWN TO EARTH TO SEE THESE PASSAGES AS DESCRIBING THE BATTLE BETWEEN GOD AND SATAN, ANGELS AND DEMONS, THE CHURCH AND THE ANTI-CHRIST, RATHER THAN TRYING TO ASSIGN SPECIFIC, DETAILED MEANINGS TO EVERY ELEMENT OF A DESCRIPTION?

He stands in front of the woman as she is about to give birth, so that he can devour the baby.

In a general sense, Satan is always standing ready to do harm against God and his people.

The Church was aware, needs to be aware, and certainly will be even more away during the Great Tribulation--that Satan hates our God and us!

(Luke 22:31) "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. (NIV)

(1 Peter 5:8) Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. (NIV)

QUESTION: HOW DO WE BALANCE OUR NEED TO BE AWARE OF SATAN AND SPIRITUAL WARFARE, WITHOUT BECOMING PARALYZED OR OBSSESSED WITH THE ENEMY?

[Traveler]

Just a short thought. Things given in scripture have cycles (see Ess 1:9). One problem is that many people only think in terms of one cycle. Often scriptures can refer to many times and events both in the past, the present, and the future.

I am quite confident that when something is given symbolically in scripture it is intended to give light and instruction for G-d's covenant peoples in many times and places. I do not believe these symbols must be tied to one place and time.

For example: I find much to be learned concerning the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and murder of Joseph Smith Jr. and the early saints being forced from civilization into a literal wilderness of the west. Then an army (Johnston's army) is sent with orders and intent to destroy the "Mormon" settlements.

I can also make use of these symbols in reference to current day and how those that oppose such things as homosexuality and homosexual unions and support families where the majority of children of our society should expect to grow up in the homes of their biological father and mother living together in love and harmony - will be driven to become a minority fleeing intellectual civilization into a social wilderness for their symbolic hope to exist.

The Traveler

[Maureen]

Here's some essays from bible.org. I only skimmed them, didn't read them through.

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1765

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=3754

M.

[a-train]

The sites that Maureen noted are pretty compatible with what the Chaplain mentioned. It says the woman is most likely Israel, the 12 stars are the Tribes, The man-child is Christ (I doubt there be many who have a different view of the man-child; except LDS).

Her sites also find the Dragon to be Satan seeking to destroy the manchild (Christ) with his fellow fallen angels seen as stars gathered by his tail. It expresses the flood as perhaps a literal flood that will wipe out Israel, but will be unsuccessful due to Divine Intervention symbolized by the wings of the great eagle.

I noticed no attempt made to describe the time and times etc.

The earth's help is said to further demonstrate the LORD's protection of Israel through Nature or other characteristics of the earth.

The chapter is viewed as a warning to keep the commandments and stand through the turbulence described.

If my abridgment of the info on the sites is in error, please forgive me (and post any corrections).

Thanks Maureen for posting that. As far as I can tell it would appear that this is the current consensus among most Christians with regard to the Chapter.

I was hoping to hear from LDS folks a little more. I think Joseph Smith's interpretation may have been unique.

Traveler: Very good. The precept that symbolic teaching/expression can apply to many instances and can be utilized to expound upon more subject than one is not only true, but in God's Nature and practice (Can I say practice about Him? Perhaps 'method' is better.) Still, I would like to be as specific as possible about the foremost purpose of the chapter.

-a-train