What All Mormons Should Know - Sources Needed

[Seminarysnoozer]

You bring up an interesting point - Is it possible that a person with Down's syndrome repent at some point to be free of it in eternity?

The Traveler

Christ's grace is sufficient. All the person has to do is remain humble and endure.

Death frees the person of the carnal burden, as it was with Paul's thorn in the flesh. Being humble and enduring is the way to deal with these carnal burdens, it doesn't require repentance unless it is something that does not lead to humility or if a person does not endure.

2 Corinthians 12; " 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

[ruthiechan]

Maureen, you said "OK, but if a person who remained single in this life were to get sealed during the millennium, he/she would not be single anymore. Likewise, if a mix-faith couple were to be sealed during the millennium, they would no longer be mix-faith. And what would make a gay person choose to be sealed during the millennium if he/she chose not to be sealed during this life?"

Right. It's the "in this life" in this mortal coil that I am referring to. A homosexual who lived a celibate life and is otherwise worthy of being sealed to someone would probably want to be sealed to someone during the Millennium.

Traveler, I hope you were being facetious with the Down's Syndrome comment.

Also you said, "One would not think of themselves as bisexual if they had never chosen to be involved in bisexual behavior" That's an illogical statement. I don't have to engage in heterosexual behavior in order to be a heterosexual.

Bytor, homosexuality by definition is same-sex attraction.

Bytor, One choice and BAM I'm locked out of the Celestial Kingdom forever? Assuming you are right, and I got a false positive when I prayed about marrying my husband who is not Mormon, does the Atonement suddenly not apply to me anymore? Can I not repent of it? And even if I do such a thing, what would you have me do? Rip our family apart in a divorce and psychologically harm our daughter in doing so?

However, I did NOT get a false positive. I used to wonder if I tricked myself into that answer, but when my husband and I were separating at his behest, I was on my knees every day seeking guidance from our Heavenly Father. The Spirit said that I was to do all I could to repair our marriage, and I followed that guidance which is why we are still together. It would have been much easier to let our relationship fall apart and then find someone to marry in the Temple, but that is not what God had me do. I have had multiple spiritual experiences that have reaffirmed that I had made the right decision that first time about marrying him. I have had spiritual experiences that have shed light as to why God would say yes. I know that I am with the man I am supposed to be with right now. I hope to be able to have him forever, but that choice is not mine to make. It is his. I have been endowed in the Temple. I still retain the promise and the anointment of becoming a Queen and Priestess.

You ought not to speak presumptuously about another's spiritual experience. Tread lightly. You can too easily trample someone else's spiritual growth when planting such judgmental seeds of doubt. You do not know them or their circumstances. You are not God and do not see the entirety of the tapestry of our universe.

Edited August 7, 2013 by ruthiechan

[pam]

You bring up an interesting point - Is it possible that a person with Down's syndrome repent at some point to be free of it in eternity?

The Traveler

Why would a person with Down Syndrome need to repent to be free of this in eternity?

[pam]

Though I never do get a response back from Traveler when I question him. *sigh*

[Traveler]

Though I never do get a response back from Traveler when I question him. *sigh*

Sometimes I believe we get very caught up in a partial meaning rather than take advantage of the full and complete message. I had hoped that someone else would have see the hint and responded. Repentance as a doctrine reaches into so many things. Many of us think of repentance only in terms of turning from sin. But I would like to reference the study helps in the LDS scriptures - in particular Repentance in the Bible Dictionary:

The Greek word of which this is the translation denotes a change of mind, a fresh view about God, about oneself, and about the world. Since we are born into conditions of mortality, repentance comes to mean a turning of the heart and will to God

I especially like the idea of repentance as a "change of mind" and "a fresh view about G-d, about oneself". I happen to believe that those the lived in mortality with Down's Syndrome are quite likely to have a change of mind and a fresh view of G-d and themselves.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

...

Traveler, I hope you were being facetious with the Down's Syndrome comment.

Also you said, "One would not think of themselves as bisexual if they had never chosen to be involved in bisexual behavior" That's an illogical statement. I don't have to engage in heterosexual behavior in order to be a heterosexual.

Bytor, homosexuality by definition is same-sex attraction.

....

Hmmmmm - I do not believe sexual behavior and having an attraction are the same thing. As a side note: there have been numerous scientific studies involving primates (and in some cases humans) that without social interactions will not develop any sexuality (sexual behaviors). There also seems to be a relationship to sexually abused children being involved in various sexual abuses as adults.

The Traveler

[pam]

Sometimes I believe we get very caught up in a partial meaning rather than take advantage of the full and complete message. I had hoped that someone else would have see the hint and responded. Repentance as a doctrine reaches into so many things. Many of us think of repentance only in terms of turning from sin. But I would like to reference the study helps in the LDS scriptures - in particular Repentance in the Bible Dictionary:

I especially like the idea of repentance as a "change of mind" and "a fresh view about G-d, about oneself". I happen to believe that those the lived in mortality with Down's Syndrome are quite likely to have a change of mind and a fresh view of G-d and themselves.

The Traveler

Hmmm that didn't even begin to answer my question. It rather dodged around it. I still don't get how you think that one with Down Syndrome would have need of repentance.

[NeuroTypical]

One would not think of themselves as bisexual if they had never chosen to be involved in bisexual behavior

Huh. Just out of curiosity, how many folks would need to claim that they consider themselves bisexual, and have never been involved in bisexual behavior, in order for you to rethink your claim?

[drham3rd]

Down syndrome is a result of having an extra chromosome..no way one could assume any need to repent for someone with a biological abnormality!!

[bytor2112]

Huh. Just out of curiosity, how many folks would need to claim that they consider themselves bisexual, and have never been involved in bisexual behavior, in order for you to rethink your claim?

I suppose if one has had "sexual thoughts" about someone other than their spouse but had not acted on this desire they could rightfully be classified as an adulterer. Or perhaps if one felt a a strong desire to steal, they could consider themselves a thief, even if they had never stolen anything.

[Traveler]

Hmmm that didn't even begin to answer my question. It rather dodged around it. I still don't get how you think that one with Down Syndrome would have need of repentance.

From Wikipedia:

Neurological effects

Most individuals with Down syndrome have intellectual disability in the mild (IQ 50–70) to moderate (IQ 35–50) range, with individuals having Mosaic Down syndrome typically 10–30 points higher. The methodology of the IQ tests has been criticised for not taking into account accompanying physical disabilities, such as hearing and vision impairment, that would slow performance.

Language skills show a difference between understanding speech and expressing speech, and commonly individuals with Down syndrome have a speech delay. Fine motor skills are delayed and often lag behind gross motor skills and can interfere with cognitive development. Effects of the condition on the development of gross motor skills are quite variable. Some children will begin walking at around 2 years of age, while others will not walk until age four. Physical therapy, and/or participation in a program of adapted physical education (APE), may promote enhanced development of gross motor skills in Down syndrome children.

Children and adults with DS are at increased risk for developing epilepsy and also Alzheimer's disease.

Jesus once asked the question: "What is the difference between healing a person or saying that your sins are forgiven?" I would suggest that we will all go through a process of "repentance" in the resurrection as defined by our LDS doctrine and that through such repentance, we all will have a fresh view of G-d and our fellow man. I do not understand why anyone would want to exclude those with Down Syndrome from this blessed and wonderful opportunity of this new fresh view (change of mind) of eternity.

The Traveler

[pam]

From Wikipedia:

Jesus once asked the question: "What is the difference between healing a person or saying that your sins are forgiven?" I would suggest that we will all go through a process of "repentance" in the resurrection as defined by our LDS doctrine and that through such repentance, we all will have a fresh view of G-d and our fellow man. I do not understand why anyone would want to exclude those with Down Syndrome from this blessed and wonderful opportunity of this new fresh view (change of mind) of eternity.

The Traveler

But what makes you think they are excluded in any way simply because they have Down Syndrome? Many of those with down syndrome don't even require baptism. Mainly due to not understanding the covenants that are made. Therefore they are as children who remain unaccountable for their actions and don't require repentance. And I've known some that were able to get baptized, hold the priesthood and fulfill some priesthood responsibilities.

[Traveler]

Huh. Just out of curiosity, how many folks would need to claim that they consider themselves bisexual, and have never been involved in bisexual behavior, in order for you to rethink your claim?

I am having a little problem understand what you are talking about. How many murders are there that have never murdered anyone? How many adulterers are there that have never committed adultery? How many drug addicts are there that have never taken drugs? How many alcoholics are there that have never drank a drop of alcohol? How many pedophiles are there that have never harmed a child? How many saints are there that have never accepted G-d. How many football players are there that have never touched a football? How many mathematicians are there that have never done arithmetic? How many musicians are there that have never played a note?

How can a person even say that they like or do not like sushi if they have never tasted sushi?

But there is a whole other dimension here. I cannot count the girls that I asked out on a first date thinking that we would be great together - that I had a change of heart concerning after trying a first date. No doubt there are also many that thought of me likewise had a change of mind after the first date. And some cases after getting to know each other even more.

It appears to me to be a logical disconnect when someone thinks to define themselves with what they have never actually done. If this reasoning is flawed - is it more flawed than the alternative? Should people be punished or rewarded for what they say they think of themselves? Especially when it is in opposition of what they do?

The Traveler

[Dravin]

A question traveler: At what point did you become heterosexual by your own thinking?

[Traveler]

But what makes you think they are excluded in any way simply because they have Down Syndrome? Many of those with down syndrome don't even require baptism. Mainly due to not understanding the covenants that are made. Therefore they are as children who remain unaccountable for their actions and don't require repentance. And I've known some that were able to get baptized, hold the priesthood and fulfill some priesthood responsibilities.

You are thinking of sin only. There is not need to repent of sin - but repentance includes a change of mind or a new view. Do you expect that those with Down Syndrome will remain that way for eternity? Or that they will be changed against their will and forced to comply with an eternity that they do not desire? That they will never have a fresh view but will remain forever with Down Syndrome? That there is no need for healing?

The Traveler

[pam]

Wouldn't you be able to label yourself bisexual if you have an extreme attraction to both men and women? So does that mean that a female needs to have an intimate relationship with another female and then with a man to determine if this were the case?

Even those with SSA don't act upon it but the feeling is there just the same.

[pam]

You are thinking of sin only. There is not need to repent of sin - but repentance includes a change of mind or a new view. Do you expect that those with Down Syndrome will remain that way for eternity? Or that they will be changed against their will and forced to comply with an eternity that they do not desire? That they will never have a fresh view but will remain forever with Down Syndrome? That there is no need for healing?

The Traveler

Healing yes but you mentioned required repentance. There would be no need for repentance.

[Traveler]

Healing yes but you mentioned required repentance. There would be no need for repentance.

????? How can someone be healed without repentance?

The Traveler

[pam]

????? How can someone be healed without repentance?

The Traveler

So if a child before the age of 8 dies due to disease, do they have to repent in order to be healed? After we die we are all free of disease or handicap etc. That's one of the comforts those that are left behind have.

[NeuroTypical]

Huh. Just out of curiosity, how many folks would need to claim that they consider themselves bisexual, and have never been involved in bisexual behavior, in order for you to rethink your claim?

I am having a little problem understand what you are talking about. How many murders are there that have never murdered anyone? How many adulterers are there that have never committed adultery?

...

How can a person even say that they like or do not like sushi if they have never tasted sushi?

...

It appears to me to be a logical disconnect when someone thinks to define themselves with what they have never actually done.

So, I think I see what you're saying. Your sexuality is defined solely by your behavior, and nothing else. Am I getting it?

When I follow your line of thinking, statements like these seem to logically follow:

* People cannot accurately think of themselves as heterosexual, until they establish a reliable track record of exclusively heterosexual behavior.

* The church has no heterosexual youth under 16 (except for those who have not followed guidelines on dating.)

Maybe I'm just confuzzled, but those statements seem wierd to me. Am I not understanding you correctly?

Edited August 12, 2013 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Leah]

Hmmmmm - I do not believe sexual behavior and having an attraction are the same thing. As a side note: there have been numerous scientific studies involving primates (and in some cases humans) that without social interactions will not develop any sexuality (sexual behaviors). There also seems to be a relationship to sexually abused children being involved in various sexual abuses as adults.The Traveler

That's a vauge statment (in bold). Can you clarify? With citations?

[Traveler]

So, I think I see what you're saying. Your sexuality is defined solely by your behavior, and nothing else. Am I getting it?

When I follow your line of thinking, statements like these seem to logically follow:

* People cannot accurately think of themselves as heterosexual, until they establish a reliable track record of exclusively heterosexual behavior.

* The church has no heterosexual youth under 16 (except for those who have not followed guidelines on dating.)

Maybe I'm just confuzzled, but those statements seem wierd to me. Am I not understanding you correctly?

Obviously we can think in any terms we like - but I do not think a person should be labeled a murder unless they murder - though some may think they have tendencies very close or that will eventually take them there. But you are correct we are not what we do not do.

You bring up a most interesting point - Kind of like Alice in Wonderland at the fork in the path and she ask the Cat which way she should go. The cat answered that if you do not know where you are going it does not matter which path you take. I also believe it is important to recognize where you are headed - what the path you are following is taking you.

This is the point that I think many want to make. Which I agree has some merit. And I agree that the path one follows also helps define what they are. The mistake I think is often made - and that is where we are going is more important than where we have been. Even if we have not arrived or gotten very far. For example - if someone is following the teaching and reparations of G-d they should rightfully think of themselves as "Saints of G-d". But if someone is following the teachings or promptings of Satan they should rightfully be called infidels.

I also think that we should forget our sins when we have repented - G-d does. That does not mean that we will not be tempted ever again after we repent but we should forget that we lied and we should not call ourselves liars. We should think of ourselves according to our will and what we determine. So if we are determined to follow G-d and his laws (the law of chastity for example) - we will not call ourselves terms that indicate violation of that law.

That is my opinion - or as David O. McKay taught - "What air thou art act well thy part. One should not call themselves anything that are not so acting or do not desire to be. If someone is not participating in sexual behavior and never have because they are living the law of Chasity and waiting for marriage - then they are literally asexual.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Traveler

Hmmmmm - I do not believe sexual behavior and having an attraction are the same thing. As a side note: there have been numerous scientific studies involving primates (and in some cases humans) that without social interactions will not develop any sexuality (sexual behaviors). There also seems to be a relationship to sexually abused children being involved in various sexual abuses as adults.The Traveler

That's a vauge statment (in bold). Can you clarify? With citations?

The only thing I see in bold is my handle for this site - beyond that I travel frequently and often it is meant to be vague. Can you clarify your question?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

So if a child before the age of 8 dies due to disease, do they have to repent in order to be healed? After we die we are all free of disease or handicap etc. That's one of the comforts those that are left behind have.

Only to obtain a fresh and new view an G-d and themselves. I said before there is no reason to repent of sins because they have not sinned but to become one with G-d all must repent - even if we think we are free of sins. How else can we have the new and fresh view of G-d unless we have the new and fresh view of G-d? Understanding that our LDS doctrine is not misleading us that we might have a new and fresh view of G-d?

I think the problem is that many think repentance is completely defined by putting away our sins. But for those of us that have sinned that is where we must begin - but it is not the end of repentance - we have not repented until we have a new view of G-d and ourselves. It is the new fresh view of G-d and themselves that I think so many do not like and refuse - for whatever reason - all they want is to be rid of sin. And I do not understand that - why go through the hassle of turning away from sin if you do not intend to see G-d and yourself anew? Why is it that so many only see repentance in terms of sin and not in becoming one with G-d?

The Traveler

[pam]

Why is it that so many only see repentance in terms of sin and not in becoming one with G-d?

The Traveler

Because repentance begins with sin. Not only in the acknowledging of it but also the forsaking of it. I do agree that part of this is wanting to become one with God and turning your life towards that goal. But you keep saying that even those without sin have to repent.