What All Mormons Should Know - Sources Needed

[bytor2112]

Because repentance begins with sin. Not only in the acknowledging of it but also the forsaking of it. I do agree that part of this is wanting to become one with God and turning your life towards that goal. But you keep saying that even those without sin have to repent.

I think that Traveler is speaking in the broader sense that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Gospel of Repentance...the Gospel of Change.... of becoming. That is what our friends from other Christian faiths struggle to understand about us.

For many of us, our "struggle with sin or temptation or weakness is mainly between the ears. As difficult as it is to understand or imagine, even our Prophet is still in that process and in need of the healing balm of the Atonement.

Identifying one's self with a sexual proclivity that if acted upon would be considered a grave sin is incorrect thinking. I would not identify myself as an adulterer if I felt tempted much of the time to have sex with someone other than my wife. I surely would not wear that weakness as a badge of honor and rebelliously state that i was born that way as though the Lord created me to be an adulterer.

[pam]

I think that Traveler is speaking in the broader sense that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Gospel of Repentance...the Gospel of Change.... of becoming. That is what our friends from other Christian faiths struggle to understand about us.

For many of us, our "struggle with sin or temptation or weakness is mainly between the ears. As difficult as it is to understand or imagine, even our Prophet is still in that process and in need of the healing balm of the Atonement.

Identifying one's self with a sexual proclivity that if acted upon would be considered a grave sin is incorrect thinking. I would not identify myself as an adulterer if I felt tempted much of the time to have sex with someone other than my wife. I surely would not wear that weakness as a badge of honor and rebelliously state that i was born that way as though the Lord created me to be an adulterer.

Understand that. My issue is his constant comments about those that need to repent in order to be healed. I still strongly believe that repentance begins with sin. There are some without sin due to age or handicap.

[NeuroTypical]

If someone is not participating in sexual behavior and never have because they are living the law of Chasity and waiting for marriage - then they are literally asexual.

Disagree. But at least we found our foundational difference with each other.

In order to have good discussion, words have to mean the same thing to both parties. I'm of the mind that a human's sexuality involves much more than just their actions. You're not.

Anyone know of a way to resolve this one way or the other? Arm wrestle? Rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock? (Both are prefereable to posting dictionary definitions.)

[pam]

I think that's the problem I'm having. Foundational difference as you put it. Not with LM of course. :)

[Dravin]

Disagree. But at least we found our foundational difference with each other.

In order to have good discussion, words have to mean the same thing to both parties. I'm of the mind that a human's sexuality involves much more than just their actions. You're not.

Anyone know of a way to resolve this one way or the other? Arm wrestle? Rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock? (Both are prefereable to posting dictionary definitions.)

You can speak of attractions as same-sex, opposite-sex, or dual-sex attraction. Traveler could speak of same-sex, opposite-sex, or dual-sex actions. Or do you want to insist on resolving it Thunderdome style? Two definitions enter, one definition leaves.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Dravin

[Traveler]

Understand that. My issue is his constant comments about those that need to repent in order to be healed. I still strongly believe that repentance begins with sin. There are some without sin due to age or handicap.

I see the problem but I am not sure we can solve it with terms. But I will try to explain my point of view. I see sin as steps or a journey in the wrong direction that will take who ever follows and commits sin away from G-d.

I see repentance as steps or a journey in the right direction that will take who ever follows repentance to G-d. In essence I see sin and repentance as principles in opposition and part of our agency and choice between good and evil.

I see forsaking sin as part of repentance, I see baptism as a part or a step of repentance. I see covenants as steps of repentance. I do not believe a person is done with repentance if they just turn from sin - they have only taken a beginning step - not the ending steps. I believe for example that a person must do good works to continue on the path of repentance. I believe that respecting one's body as the temple of G-d is part of the repentance process. Repentance is the process of doing better and becoming more like G-d. Sin is also a process but a process of doing worse and becoming more like Satan.

Thus I see repentance as any step someone makes to change in order to become more G-d like and sin as any step someone makes to become devilish. I do not see one as part of the other and I do not see any way in the eternal scheme of things that anyone can do both. Sin is not repenting and repenting is not sin! Anyway that is according to the understanding and logic of The Traveler.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Disagree. But at least we found our foundational difference with each other.

In order to have good discussion, words have to mean the same thing to both parties. I'm of the mind that a human's sexuality involves much more than just their actions. You're not.

Anyone know of a way to resolve this one way or the other? Arm wrestle? Rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock? (Both are prefereable to posting dictionary definitions.)

I personally like the idea of evolution or change. I believe anyone can change and in general I do not like labels. Labels seem to take away will and ability to have say over who we are. For example I dislike the title of failure. It implies that the ability to alter course is not possible. Likewise I dislike the idea of arriving and thinking one is incapable of any other possibility. I struggle with the idea of having a calling and election made sure.

I think one should always strive to do better. Not just with actions and effort but with attitude and and desire. And I personally see no benefit in encouraging anyone to do things that are not good - despite the difficulties that may be present at the time to do that which is good - I believe friends will encourage friends to do good. I do not believe in telling anyone at anytime it is okay to do something that is not okay and is not good to do - regardless of the pressure to otherwise.

But that is The Traveler. If you do not want that kind of a friend - it is probably not a good idea to be a friend of The Traveler. But I will also encourage those that have chosen to be my enemies, to think, to strive and make every effort to do good and encourage everyone else to do good.

The Traveler

[pam]

I see the problem but I am not sure we can solve it with terms. But I will try to explain my point of view. I see sin as steps or a journey in the wrong direction that will take who ever follows and commits sin away from G-d.

I see repentance as steps or a journey in the right direction that will take who ever follows repentance to G-d. In essence I see sin and repentance as principles in opposition and part of our agency and choice between good and evil.

I see forsaking sin as part of repentance, I see baptism as a part or a step of repentance. I see covenants as steps of repentance. I do not believe a person is done with repentance if they just turn from sin - they have only taken a beginning step - not the ending steps. I believe for example that a person must do good works to continue on the path of repentance. I believe that respecting one's body as the temple of G-d is part of the repentance process. Repentance is the process of doing better and becoming more like G-d. Sin is also a process but a process of doing worse and becoming more like Satan.

Thus I see repentance as any step someone makes to change in order to become more G-d like and sin as any step someone makes to become devilish. I do not see one as part of the other and I do not see any way in the eternal scheme of things that anyone can do both. Sin is not repenting and repenting is not sin! Anyway that is according to the understanding and logic of The Traveler.

The Traveler

And I would agree with this. But I still stick to my comments that those who die before the age of accountability or have Down Syndrome do not need to go through the repentance process to become Godlike. They already are when they die because they were never accountable. Or to become healed as you stated.

[NeuroTypical]

But I still stick to my comments that those who die before the age of accountability or have Down Syndrome do not need to go through the repentance process to become Godlike. They already are when they die because they were never accountable.

Wait - folks with Downs Syndrome are incapable of sin? You may be able to graduate high school, but you will never be accountable for your actions?

I'm not sure I can go that far...

[pam]

Wait - folks with Downs Syndrome are incapable of sin? You may be able to graduate high school, but you will never be accountable for your actions?

I'm not sure I can go that far...

I feel like I'm having to go back and repeat everything I've said much earlier in this thread. There are some with Down Syndrome that do not have the mental capacity to even understand the concept of baptism and therefore baptism is not required. I've know many that fell into this category but also many who could make the decision and were baptized and held the Priesthood. If they had the mental capacity to know right from wrong yes they would be accountable. Traveler made a blanket statement about all with Down Syndrome.

I think I'm just re-arguing the same thing over and over.