G-d the Father

[Traveler]

On a thread in the Christian Belief Board of the Gospel Boards of this forum I started a thread about differences between LDS and Traditional Christianity. It was interesting to me what some though as differences and others thought of as similarities. One of the great mysteries of religion is the nature of G-d or the nature of the G-ds. Perhaps the most “mysterious” is G-d the Father – his attributes and what are the distinguishable differences between G-d the Father and G-d the Son.

I believe a scriptural search of this subject is at best vague and even confusing. In general it seems that the more controversial or argumentative a thread subject the more attention it will garner. But it is not my intention to create controversy or arguments. Rather I would like to begin with the backdrop from the gospel of John Chapter 17:3

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Thus we see that our place in eternity is at least in part based in the knowledge we have (as it appears to me) of G-d the Father and his Son (whom he sent). My question to all that believe in G-d the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ – how are we to distinguish them? What are the differences?

I will begin with what I believe. I believe that G-d the Father is the person that is the Father of the Christ Child – Jesus Christ. I believe that G-d the Father is the father of all the spirits of man (including the man Jesus Christ) and Lucifer (making Jesus and Satan spiritual brothers of the same father). And I believe that G-d the Father is “Greater” than Jesus Christ – in that Jesus was sent by the Father (meaning that Jesus receives authority from G-d the Father), that Jesus worshiped the Father and that Jesus prayed unto the Father.

I hope to add to my understanding – from your posts.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

On a thread in the Christian Belief Board of the Gospel Boards of this forum I started a thread about differences between LDS and Traditional Christianity. It was interesting to me what some though as differences and others thought of as similarities. One of the great mysteries of religion is the nature of G-d or the nature of the G-ds. Perhaps the most “mysterious” is G-d the Father – his attributes and what are the distinguishable differences between G-d the Father and G-d the Son.

I believe a scriptural search of this subject is at best vague and even confusing. In general it seems that the more controversial or argumentative a thread subject the more attention it will garner. But it is not my intention to create controversy or arguments. Rather I would like to begin with the backdrop from the gospel of John Chapter 17:3

Thus we see that our place in eternity is at least in part based in the knowledge we have (as it appears to me) of G-d the Father and his Son (whom he sent). My question to all that believe in G-d the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ – how are we to distinguish them? What are the differences?

I will begin with what I believe. I believe that G-d the Father is the person that is the Father of the Christ Child – Jesus Christ. I believe that G-d the Father is the father of all the spirits of man (including the man Jesus Christ) and Lucifer (making Jesus and Satan spiritual brothers of the same father). And I believe that G-d the Father is “Greater” than Jesus Christ – in that Jesus was sent by the Father (meaning that Jesus receives authority from G-d the Father), that Jesus worshiped the Father and that Jesus prayed unto the Father.

I hope to add to my understanding – from your posts.

The Traveler

I could be wrong but I don't see how you stated how we could distinguish them.

What does God the Father have that Christ does not have? What does the father of the prodigal son have that the son doesn't? Does Christ become one with God or not? Does Christ receive a fullness or not? Even if you shave off one little feature that is a statement that Christ did not receive all that the Father has.

Luke 15; "31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine."

[Maureen]

I would say that in comparing the Father and the Son, the Son is the only person of the Godhead, that became incarnate. He lived a human life and taught mankind who God (the Father) really is and what kind a relationship we can have with him.

M.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Maureen

[carlimac]

I would say that in comparing the Father and the Son, the Son is the only person of the Godhead, that became incarnate. He lived a human life and taught mankind who God (the Father) really is and what kind a relationship we can have with him.

M.

...that we know of.

[Maureen]

...that we know of.

Maybe I should have started my comment with I believe that in comparing....

...in comparing the Father and the Son, the Son is the only person of the Godhead, that became incarnate. He lived a human life and taught mankind who God (the Father) really is and what kind a relationship we can have with him....

M.

[justinc]

I conceive of God as a being existing without form (Deuteronomy 4:15-18) and self existent (John 5:26). He is called Jehovah (Isaiah 42:8), the God of the Old & New Testaments (Romans 3:29).

I understand Jesus as the pre-existant wisdom figure of Jewish tradition. "What pre-Christian Judaism said of Wisdom and Philo also of the Logos, Paul and the others say of Jesus." (James DG Dunn, Christology). Jesus is the Son of the Father in that he reflects the nature of the Father into the world.

That's my unorthodox non-denominational Christian perspective :)

[Traveler]

I could be wrong but I don't see how you stated how we could distinguish them.

What does God the Father have that Christ does not have?

1. A physical son who we call Jesus The Christ.

2. Spirit children

What does the father of the prodigal son have that the son doesn't? Does Christ become one with God or not? Does Christ receive a fullness or not? Even if you shave off one little feature that is a statement that Christ did not receive all that the Father has.

Luke 15; "31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine."

Not sure what you are asking - do you personally distinguish of believe that G-d the Father and G-d the Son are separate persons? If so what do you believe distinguishes them as separate persons?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Maybe I should have started my comment with I believe that in comparing....

M.

Fair enough - perhaps you and I can some day drill down into deeper ideas and understandings arising from our beliefs concerning the nature and individual completeness of the persons of the Father and the Son.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I conceive of God as a being existing without form (Deuteronomy 4:15-18) and self existent (John 5:26). He is called Jehovah (Isaiah 42:8), the God of the Old & New Testaments (Romans 3:29).

I understand Jesus as the pre-existant wisdom figure of Jewish tradition. "What pre-Christian Judaism said of Wisdom and Philo also of the Logos, Paul and the others say of Jesus." (James DG Dunn, Christology). Jesus is the Son of the Father in that he reflects the nature of the Father into the world.

That's my unorthodox non-denominational Christian perspective :)

Perhaps I did not ask my question correctly for your - I am assuming that you are a Trinitarian? If you believe in the Trinity - would you explain how you differentiate between the person that is referred to in scriptures (by Christ) as "the Father" and the person referred to in scriptures as "the Son" or "the Son of G-d"

If you do not believe in the persons of G-d - namely The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost then I understand the logic of your response. If you do believe that there are 3 persons that comprise G-d or G-dhead; would you please, according to your understanding and beliefs share with me (us) how it is that you differentiate between their persons specifically the person of the Father and the person of the Son?

The Traveler

[carlimac]

Maybe I should have started my comment with I believe that in comparing....

M.

I have somehow acquired the notion that God the Father was once incarnate himself. Maybe it's from the scripture "As man is, God once was and as God is, man may become"

Where is that scripture by the way? It's in my head but I can't find the reference.

[Anddenex]

My question to all that believe in G-d the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ – how are we to distinguish them? What are the differences?

The Traveler

Glory. As Christ stand brighter than all of us, it would logically make sense that God the Father is brighter in glory than the Son (appearance).

I, in totality, agree with your last paragraph. Our Savior, God the Son, is also our advocate with the Father. He is the individual pleading our cause (D&C 45: 3-5).

[Dravin]

I have somehow acquired the notion that God the Father was once incarnate himself. Maybe it's from the scripture "As man is, God once was and as God is, man may become"

Where is that scripture by the way? It's in my head but I can't find the reference.

It's not from the standard works, LDS.org cites it to The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, ed. Clyde J. Williams [1984] ( Lorenzo Snow - Quotes ).

Edited July 29, 2013 by Dravin

[carlimac]

It's not in the standard works.

So where is it? I'm going senile and can't remember things very well.

[Dravin]

So where is it? I'm going senile and can't remember things very well.

Search

[carlimac]

Search

Thank you!

[Seminarysnoozer]

1. A physical son who we call Jesus The Christ.

2. Spirit children

Not sure what you are asking - do you personally distinguish of believe that G-d the Father and G-d the Son are separate persons? If so what do you believe distinguishes them as separate persons?

The Traveler

They are separate persons, I believe that. Maybe you should clarify in what aspect are you asking how they are distinguished ... appearance, glory, jobs, works etc..

I don't think there is anything that is distinguishable between the two. All that the Father has, the Son has as well. Christ's work and glory is doing the Father's work.

You really believe that the Celestial Kingdom is a place where there is proprietary glory or wealth of any kind, whether it is personal achievement or personal accomplishment etc.? The glory of the Son is given to the Father and the Father freely gives all He has to the Son as if it is His own. Proprietary credit for achievements was Satan's plan not God's.

When the Father and the Son appeared to Joseph, as far as we know, the only distinguishing factor was that one of them pointed to the other and said "This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" I am not sure that Joseph would have been able to distinguish one from the other without that direction. Your question was how we could distinguish the two. I don't think we would unless they said so.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Glory. As Christ stand brighter than all of us, it would logically make sense that God the Father is brighter in glory than the Son (appearance).

I, in totality, agree with your last paragraph. Our Savior, God the Son, is also our advocate with the Father. He is the individual pleading our cause (D&C 45: 3-5).

That is not a logical statement if a person believes that all that the Father has is given to those that make it into the Celestial Kingdom. Like the parable of the prodigal son, all the Father has can be ours. We can be one with God and Christ. Separate glories and levels etc. is what the Telestial Kingdom is all about, as one star differs from another. Of course, there is a process to get there and so at any given time when a person is in the Celestial Kingdom there may be some that are increasing their capacity. But, when it says a person receives a fullness of that particular kingdom, what does that mean? A fullness, to me, means all.

If two people have 100% of something than there cannot be one over the other. The only way Christ could be lower in glory than God is if He does not have all the Father has, if He does not have 100%. The tough thing to comprehend about that is when we love our neighbor as our self, anything that person does is as if we did it our self, we feel for them, we empathize with them. We know this is a trait of God because this is what our Savior did for us in the Garden of Gethsemane. If He can feel our experiences in a vicarious way then we know that that skill and trait is from God. God has that trait too and I believe if we are to become like God then we can learn to be that empathetic, to really love our neighbor as our self. If we can achieve that, then anything that person does is shared in terms of it's glory and achievement as if everyone had done it. That is the power of Eternal and endless joy. Joy is limited when it is like Lucifer wanted it, only based in personal experience and achievement.

[carlimac]

It's not from the standard works, LDS.org cites it to The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, ed. Clyde J. Williams [1984] ( Lorenzo Snow - Quotes ).

Way to make me look even more senile by changing your post after I asked you where it was. Not fair!

[Dravin]

Way to make me look even more senile by changing your post after I asked you where it was. Not fair!

I was editing before I saw your post because I figured you might want a reference. It wasn't done to make you look senile.

[carlimac]

I was editing before I saw your post because I figured you might want a reference. It wasn't done to make you look senile.

The awkwardness of forum communication. No harm done.

[Traveler]

They are separate persons, I believe that. Maybe you should clarify in what aspect are you asking how they are distinguished ... appearance, glory, jobs, works etc..

I don't think there is anything that is distinguishable between the two. All that the Father has, the Son has as well. Christ's work and glory is doing the Father's work.

You really believe that the Celestial Kingdom is a place where there is proprietary glory or wealth of any kind, whether it is personal achievement or personal accomplishment etc.? The glory of the Son is given to the Father and the Father freely gives all He has to the Son as if it is His own. Proprietary credit for achievements was Satan's plan not God's.

When the Father and the Son appeared to Joseph, as far as we know, the only distinguishing factor was that one of them pointed to the other and said "This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" I am not sure that Joseph would have been able to distinguish one from the other without that direction. Your question was how we could distinguish the two. I don't think we would unless they said so.

Did you read my initial post? I an quite surprised that you suggest we rely completely on our mortal eyes (the natural man) to achieve any means to differentiate (become aware of any differences).

I will try to ask the question to better understood - if you believe the the Father and the Son are different "persons" - what difference do you believe in all knowledge and understanding available in eternity is valid to be used to differentiate their persons to justify your believing that they are not the same person?

The Traveler

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

That is not a logical statement if a person believes that all that the Father has is given to those that make it into the Celestial Kingdom. Like the parable of the prodigal son, all the Father has can be ours. We can be one with God and Christ. Separate glories and levels etc. is what the Telestial Kingdom is all about, as one star differs from another. Of course, there is a process to get there and so at any given time when a person is in the Celestial Kingdom there may be some that are increasing their capacity. But, when it says a person receives a fullness of that particular kingdom, what does that mean? A fullness, to me, means all.

If two people have 100% of something than there cannot be one over the other. The only way Christ could be lower in glory than God is if He does not have all the Father has, if He does not have 100%. The tough thing to comprehend about that is when we love our neighbor as our self, anything that person does is as if we did it our self, we feel for them, we empathize with them. We know this is a trait of God because this is what our Savior did for us in the Garden of Gethsemane. If He can feel our experiences in a vicarious way then we know that that skill and trait is from God. God has that trait too and I believe if we are to become like God then we can learn to be that empathetic, to really love our neighbor as our self. If we can achieve that, then anything that person does is shared in terms of it's glory and achievement as if everyone had done it. That is the power of Eternal and endless joy. Joy is limited when it is like Lucifer wanted it, only based in personal experience and achievement.

I understand this is how you feel.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Did you read my initial post? I an quite surprised that you suggest we rely completely on our mortal eyes (the natural man) to achieve any means to differentiate (become aware of any differences).

I will try to ask the question to better understood - if you believe the the Father and the Son are different "persons" - what difference do you believe in all knowledge and understanding available in eternity is valid to be used to differentiate their persons to justify your believing that they are not the same person?

The Traveler

The Traveler

Yes, that is what I was responding to, your OP "Thus we see that our place in eternity is at least in part based in the knowledge we have (as it appears to me) of G-d the Father and his Son (whom he sent). My question to all that believe in G-d the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ – how are we to distinguish them? What are the differences?"

.... the underlined and bold showing where you said "we" and "as it appears to me".

If I had all knowledge and understanding available in eternity I would imagine that I would, on numerous occasions see both the Father and the Son together in the same area as two separate individuals, like Joseph Smith did. I don't think there is any other measurable distinctiveness. It is difficult to speak of that kind of understanding because we don't have all of our spiritual capacity with us right now so it is hard to say how we would distinguish one from the other. There may be some intrinsic spiritual 'vibe' that lets us know who is who. But, I don't think there would be some distinct personality or mannerism or the way in which they speak etc. that would be distinctive.

The idea of having Christ' image in our countenance or to be Christ-like etc. is a goal to become almost indistinguishable from Him. The idea of being a disciple is not only to follow but to be like Him. Do you not think we can get to that point?

I am not following why you want to find distinguishing features between the two, even if it is in terms of work or glory or something else. Why is that important? ... I think the opposite is more important that they are one in every way and yet two separate beings.

[justinc]

Perhaps I did not ask my question correctly for your - I am assuming that you are a Trinitarian? If you believe in the Trinity - would you explain how you differentiate between the person that is referred to in scriptures (by Christ) as "the Father" and the person referred to in scriptures as "the Son" or "the Son of G-d"

If you do not believe in the persons of G-d - namely The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost then I understand the logic of your response. If you do believe that there are 3 persons that comprise G-d or G-dhead; would you please, according to your understanding and beliefs share with me (us) how it is that you differentiate between their persons specifically the person of the Father and the person of the Son?

The Traveler

I'm not entirely sure about the traditional idea of a "trinity". But the way I would distinguish them (God and Jesus) on my own view is that they each experience an individual mindset. Their states of consciousness are individual - that is to say they each experience thought, feeling, awareness etc as individuals. So if they are one "God/head" it must be by virtue of their unity. The Son as fulfilling the will of the Father in an expression of love and holiness. This comes from my simplistic view of 'being' and applying it to the divine. Also keeping in mind ancient Jewish expression conceived of God's thoughts/ways as beyond their understanding (Isaiah 55:8-9).

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm not entirely sure about the traditional idea of a "trinity". But the way I would distinguish them (God and Jesus) on my own view is that they each experience an individual mindset. Their states of consciousness are individual - that is to say they each experience thought, feeling, awareness etc as individuals. So if they are one "God/head" it must be by virtue of their unity. The Son as fulfilling the will of the Father in an expression of love and holiness. This comes from my simplistic view of 'being' and applying it to the divine. Also keeping in mind ancient Jewish expression conceived of God's thoughts/ways as beyond their understanding (Isaiah 55:8-9).

They may experience it individually but it doesn't remain individual for very long, if not instantaneously. It is beyond our understanding but I think Christ attempted on many occasions to try to enlighten us about that ability to be one. I think it is important for us to realize our goal of doing the same as we do everything with an eye single to the glory of God, and we love our neighbor as our self. We prepare ourselves and show our worthiness to have such a trait to see the inner man and not just the outward person to the point of seeing and experiencing the other person's thoughts and experiences as if they are our own.

Do we not believe that there is nothing hidden from God?

God sees the inner man. What thought or experience or "mindset" could I hide from God? Is there an experience that I could have that God could not have because it is just mine?

John 15; " 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full."

The plan of eternal joy requires that we abide in Christ and Christ abides in the Father and the Father is glorified by our fruits and we in His. If we don't obtain the same mindset then we wither and start to not produce fruit and we are cast into the fire.

John 14; " 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

And from there we all know that He starts to talk about love as the greatest commandment. That is because loving one's neighbor as self is the only way to have that "mindset", to be able to share joy and glory.

Christ states their equality in mindset pretty clearly here " 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."